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  #301  
Old 07 May 2012, 23:45
Alfa1's Avatar
Alfa1 Alfa1 is offline
 
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This project has started as a request for a CMS content type. Later on it turned out that the vbCMS is not a feasible platform for this and it doesn't look vbCMS will get a rewrite ever. So the project changed to an integrated CMS.

22 people each pledged a substantial amount to hire a coder. No coder has been selected yet, as Adrian and you came in announcing that you would release a reviews addon. I thought it fair to give you both a chance to release something and see where that leads.

The list of features is not an arbitrary list, but is the compilation of what these 22 people want.

Nonetheless, you are free to release any feature set that you think is right, and I am sure that there will be people who are interested.

Regarding GARS: you are correct about the insanity of some features, but the reality is that some of us have many thousands of GARS entries. 11.000 in my case. As you can imagine its not an option to loose that data.

You are right that its a big project. Not every coder is able or willing to do a big project. I've seen that many times before. But there are coders who do deliver such projects. Its time for that now.
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  #302  
Old 08 May 2012, 01:18
Christos Teriakis Christos Teriakis is offline
 
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Real name: Christos
Originally Posted by Alfa1 View Post
Regarding GARS: you are correct about the insanity of some features, but the reality is that some of us have many thousands of GARS entries. 11.000 in my case. As you can imagine its not an option to loose that data.
.
I didn't said that importer can't be done. Actually is an easy job BUT ONLY for those who where using one rating scale. eg When I was using GARS, even, as you know, there was the option to set the max rating scale, I was always using 5. So, in this case is easy. But if you've mixed rating scales, most probably an importer will mess it.

Chris
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  #303  
Old 08 May 2012, 02:52
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BirdOPrey5 BirdOPrey5 is offline
 
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Real name: Joe D.
I have no stake in this project from either side but if the arbitrary rating in GARS is an issue it seems like it would be easy math for an importer to convert any scale to a 5 point scale during an import.

So 3 of 10 becomes 1.5 of 5 which rounds to 2 of 5... It's not perfect but a lot better than nothing.
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  #304  
Old 08 May 2012, 08:53
Christos Teriakis Christos Teriakis is offline
 
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Real name: Christos
To avoid wasting your time, I want to inform you that I'm out of this project. As BirdOPrey5 wrote, this thread became just like an auction.

I think that the best way to have real results trying to combine funds, is to make a post in Paid Request, and when you'll have a quote for it, then try again by changing the title to something like "Lets combine $xxx dollars for a Reviews CMS".

Regards
Chris
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  #305  
Old 09 May 2012, 16:00
lazytown lazytown is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
I think coders are permanently damaging their reputation with thousands of clients by promising a product, having people wait a very long time, and then never delivering. It would be far far better to release a version with only the most important features and the other hundred features could be potentially for future releases if sales warrant it. I certainly don't expect even 15% of those features to be implemented in a first retail release. my 2 cents.
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  #306  
Old 09 May 2012, 17:51
Christos Teriakis Christos Teriakis is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Real name: Christos
Originally Posted by vissa View Post
.....with thousands of clients
I think that you're dreaming. There are no thousands of clients anymore, not for vB, not for all forum scripts, but for all php scripts platform and scope independent. There were thousands till 2008-middle 2009.[/quote]

Originally Posted by vissa View Post
by promising a product, having people wait a very long time, and then never delivering.
Because I'm one of them, what I've to say is that, as long I didn't got a single cent from anybody I'm not obligue to do anything. As you're trying to find out how many coders will be interest to get over this project, on the same way I'm trying to find how many potential clients there are. And unlike what you're saying I bet that there are no more than 50. Go throught the full thread which is already 11 months old. How many shown interest for it?
Another point that you must give attention (if you're fair in critic,,, i believe it...), is that there are already 2 mods in the market, plus one free. I believe that they're enought for a specific market. That's why I stopped working on it when Forumsmods released its own addon, even if I had wasted more than a month working on it.

Chris
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  #307  
Old 09 May 2012, 18:34
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Alfa1 Alfa1 is offline
 
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Thousands of clients sounds like an overstatement. Though popular addons like photopost, vaulwiki, vbseo do have a high volume of sales. The demand for a reviews CMS is widely documented. Its one of the top voted requests for vbulletin. The response in this thread gives a good indication.
If you would have finished your product. Even if forumsmods would have come through, then you would have had sales.

There has been interest from coders. But its a big project and its my experience that big projects tend to fall through if 1 coder does the entire project.
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  #308  
Old 09 May 2012, 19:34
Christos Teriakis Christos Teriakis is offline
 
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Real name: Christos
Originally Posted by Alfa1 View Post
Thousands of clients sounds like an overstatement. Though popular addons like photopost, vaulwiki, vbseo do have a high volume of sales. The demand for a reviews CMS is widely documented. Its one of the top voted requests for vbulletin. The response in this thread gives a good indication.
If you would have finished your product. Even if forumsmods would have come through, then you would have had sales.

There has been interest from coders. But its a big project and its my experience that big projects tend to fall through if 1 coder does the entire project.
The only that I can do from my side is to give for free full copyright rights of my current code to anybody who is interest to continue developing it. I believe that I've clear and well commented code, and ofcourse I'll be beside him for any advice that maybe he/she will needs. Maybe this will be a good way to prove that I had never in mind to tease all those who were waiting this mod.

From the other side I'm doing this work for living, and this period is the worst for my country and me as citizen of this country. In addition I need to take care for my daughter too, who, after 12 years in Airlines fired from her job.

So, if anybody is interest, just contact me. And when I'm saying full rights, I mean full rights. Not even any refference to my name inside the files, not even a thank you. Actually I'll feel better knowing that someone is using it, than having it in my disk.

Chris
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  #309  
Old 09 May 2012, 21:43
lazytown lazytown is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
I wasn't talking about thousands of clients for you specifically and for this specific review add-on. I'm talking about the thousands of people who may come across threads like this and see how things are handled, promises broken, etc.. When someone says they are developing something, people rely on that and put other things on hold (and wait a long time), then, after making people wait, they get absolutely nothing (or close to nothing). I wasn't even referring specifically to any one developer. It's not about money, it's about reputation (which can affect future earning ability). If you say you'll do something, in my book, you do it. If you find out you can't do it, you tell people as SOON as you know and don't leave them hanging. That's just my beliefs, not an attack on anyone specifically.

--------------- Added 09 May 2012 at 21:48 ---------------

Originally Posted by ChrisTERiS View Post
......
That's why I stopped working on it when Forumsmods released its own addon, even if I had wasted more than a month working on it.

Chris
...Then you should have posted in this thread and told us months ago that you decided to stop working on it. Making people wait and wonder is not a good thing. That's all I'm saying. I think you're a very talented coder, I'm just expressing some frustration about the wait that I'm sure many other members have. Thank you.
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  #310  
Old 12 May 2012, 09:10
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Webrunner Webrunner is offline
 
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Location: Netherlands
Originally Posted by ChrisTERiS View Post
The only that I can do from my side is to give for free full copyright rights of my current code to anybody who is interest to continue developing it. I believe that I've clear and well commented code, and ofcourse I'll be beside him for any advice that maybe he/she will needs. Maybe this will be a good way to prove that I had never in mind to tease all those who were waiting this mod.

From the other side I'm doing this work for living, and this period is the worst for my country and me as citizen of this country. In addition I need to take care for my daughter too, who, after 12 years in Airlines fired from her job.

So, if anybody is interest, just contact me. And when I'm saying full rights, I mean full rights. Not even any refference to my name inside the files, not even a thank you. Actually I'll feel better knowing that someone is using it, than having it in my disk.

Chris
Chris, why not finish the basics of the mod and release it to get some cash?
I am willing to pay for it if it is working OK. I don't need half of what is in the feature list in the first post, at least not right away. I think it is always a good thing to let mods develop over time. That gives bett quality...

--------------- Added 12 May 2012 at 09:12 ---------------

Another question for Chris: how far are you from a proper release?
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  #311  
Old 12 May 2012, 11:03
Christos Teriakis Christos Teriakis is offline
 
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Real name: Christos
Originally Posted by Webrunner View Post
...... and release it to get some cash?
...lol.. Do you mean from donation? ... After 2 years still I haven't completed $75

Originally Posted by Webrunner View Post
Another question for Chris: how far are you from a proper release?
Proper but medium in features release? 2-3 days max

Chris
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  #312  
Old 12 May 2012, 14:19
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FannBlade FannBlade is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Originally Posted by ChrisTERiS View Post
After 2 years still I haven't completed $75

Proper but medium in features release? 2-3 days max

Chris
Years to days seems like simple math to me. If you only have twenty member purchase it for $30...that is $600, sure that may only be 5 cents an hour , but those 20 members could snow ball into 200-300 then thing start looking good. Keep product updated and start adding more features then step price somewhere between $30-$200.

How many product have others purchase because of a great implantation someone is using on their own site.

Two things that bother me for add-ons.
1. Free add-ons that seem to always just fall off map with no more support. (expected for free)
2. Paid add-ons that seem to have had heyday period in 2009 and now nothing.
Scariest thing for me is implementing an add-on that admin,mods and members love but just falls off map. (probably why lot of large sites still using 3.8)

Either way support or at least the illusion of support and interest is what keeps a product viable.

Take vBulletin as an example,sure it seems like I'm constantly doing an upgrade but VB does a great job with announcements and what is on the horizon.

ChrisTERiS I have been to your site several times and have a tough time navigating site to find products...for a vB coder my perception is your vB site would be setup properly. I know it's hard to be a one man show and try to make products and keep site up to date but unforgivably enthusiasm and professional projection is also required to grow a great product. We all need a little dose of excitement every so often.

Even with just few members posting in this thread I bet it has a ton of silent members waiting to pounce on something.

Sorry for mess of rambling but trying to watch Formula 1 qualifying also.
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  #313  
Old 12 May 2012, 18:19
lazytown lazytown is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
I see the same pattern over and over... Vastly unrealistic time-lines, unrealistic estimates and unrealistic promises. I'm not saying it's intentional but it's what keeps happening, and I don't mean being off by 10-20%, but being off by like 500-2000%....
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  #314  
Old 12 May 2012, 19:57
Christos Teriakis Christos Teriakis is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Real name: Christos
Originally Posted by vissa View Post
I see the same pattern over and over... Vastly unrealistic time-lines, unrealistic estimates and unrealistic promises. I'm not saying it's intentional but it's what keeps happening, and I don't mean being off by 10-20%, but being off by like 500-2000%....
Sorry, but do you have something against me? In everything that I'm saying you've always something negative to say. I don't think is polite. Final I'm not a criminal. I'll appreciate if you let me alone. And finally I'm not posting in random. All my posts are replies to specific questions. And finally... have you seen any estimate? He ask me how long it will takes me to finish it and I said: in 2-3 days max. Didn't said on Tuesday. I've 7 custom projects on hands now. When I'll finish them, and if I decide to waste my time with this mod, then (and only then) it will takes me 2-3 days to finish it. I don't plan to let out some thousands of real money, betting for some hundrend possible dollars.

Thank you
Chris

--------------- Added 12 May 2012 at 20:07 ---------------

Originally Posted by FannBlade View Post
ChrisTERiS I have been to your site several times and have a tough time navigating site to find products...for a vB coder my perception is your vB site would be setup properly. I know it's hard to be a one man show and try to make products and keep site up to date but unforgivably enthusiasm and professional projection is also required to grow a great product. We all need a little dose of excitement every so often.
Have you seen anywhere a buynow button? A Cart with products? No. Well, only this means that I'm a honest person. As long as I know that the reality is that I'm very busy with custom works, and thus I'll be unable to support well my clients, I turned it off.
But my forums for my current clients is working. Right? My response time is very good.

So what you prefer? To find a nice site, with a nicer shop system open, and when you'll pay you money which most probably are coming from your hard work, you'll find that nothing except the download links works? Have you visited forumcoding.com? It has everything and the shop is open. But just read the forums and you'll understand how "soon" you'll get a reply in case that you want support. Forumsmods.com which has release a review addon. He got the money and 2 weeks now they're ...upgrading the system.

Sorry I don't like to do it. When I'll be ready to support my clients, then I'll open my shop. Till then no orders accepting.

Chris

--------------- Added 12 May 2012 at 20:13 ---------------

Originally Posted by FannBlade View Post
....sure that may only be 5 cents an hour
..... especially if you compare those 5 X 8 = 40c with 250 Euros which is my daily rate. If I haven't custom work on hands, yes instead of nothing I had to work on it. But as I said before I've currently 7 projects opens. Only an idiot will drop them for some cents.

I know that I sound rude but this is the reality worldwide. Everybody of us (I believe you too), we're giving attention to the jobs with the higher income. Or I'm wrong?
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  #315  
Old 12 May 2012, 23:33
lazytown lazytown is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Christeris,

No I'm not attacking you personally.. I've only stated my opinions on time line estimates in general. People are responsible for what they say and do and the reputation they create. I haven't said a nasty word, and I don't know if there is a language barrier. When someone says 2-3 days, I don't think people think that means it's going to be after they finish all their other 7 projects, which means it could easily be 6 months, 12 months or more, who in the world knows. I'm glad you cleared that up for everyone to see a perfect example of what I'm talking about and how things get miscommunicated.

This is not an attack on you. I have had to give estimates myself in the past and have learned a LONG time ago that my gut reaction is usually WAY less that it will really take -- I have learned through experience to increase my estimate on how long I think it will take by 50 to 100%. Many developers are ridiculously overly optimistic on how quickly they can get things done. I stand by my statement that I do see the same mistakes over and over with estimates -- that's my honest opinion and I think people should get used to this reality. I also think open honest and frequent communication is essential. If a project is dropped, people should be told as soon as possible. I don't think I'm the only one with this opinion, especially one who has been around as long as I have. Again, I don't have a problem with you, so please don't take the attacks personally. You don't have to defend every comment I make, many of them are general statements about development in general and not targeted specifically towards you. I, for one, am glad you are a vbulletin developer. As I've stated, you are a talented coder.....

Last edited by lazytown : 13 May 2012 at 15:21.
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