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Logikos
12 May 2006, 04:57
I think I've reached the point to no return. I've been trying really hard to not come to this dissuasion, but with the way things are around here; I feel like I have no other choice but to stop releasing my work here, and supporting the hacks I have here now. Nothing around here is the same anymore. vBulletin.org used to look at the coders as the gas that runs this site, when FireFly was around. But times have changed. Now, coders are just people who release some random scripts here. The community here gives nothing back to the people who spend hours beyond hours coding something that will never make them a dime.

Yea, we got ourselves our own forums. WOOT! well this only took 5 years to happen, and now anyone who releases a hello world script can access it. What happen to this hacks database system? When are we going to see this happen? Has this even been half way coded? Will it be months beyond months until we can use this? I can totally understand that a hack like this will not just code itself, and people have real life things to deal with. So why not hand it off to a team? There are hundreds of users here that would gladly dedicate some time to help code. Instead, you leave this in the hands of one person. Who hasn't been active in god knows how long.

I'm also really really sick and tired of customers coming to this site and demanding, bashing, and degrading what this site once was. Not only do the non-coder customers do it, but lately I've seen this in allot of the staff here.

For the most part, allot of the staff here do a fine job I'm sure. When it comes to moderating the post and what not. Though the unfriendliness and lack of professional attitude amongst the staff here disgust me the most, and that's the main reason for my dissuasion to leave. Just because you have a staff title, does not make you any better then anyone else. Staff seem to forget that we are coming here as a customer and releasing our work here FREE OF CHARGE. You need to think about that every time you reply to a customer. Stop treating people that post here like a baby, or some idiotic person.

Lately Paul M has been getting alot of heat from the staff, so it seems. Why is this? Maybe because when he post he is blunt and tells it like it is.Though when you post like that, that is considered a bad thing to some of the staff here. Well you know what? Get over it and move on and keep your mouth shut or just +++++ about us in your private forums or something. I don't spend hundreds of dollars a year to come here and see others treated with disrespect. Not only others, but myself has been treated with a great deal of disrespect in the past. Directly from 3 of the staff members here now. 1 which is no longer staff anymore. (Dean).

vBulletin.org is losing allot of talented coders and something really needs to be done. Jelsoft really needs to look at this site, and control whats going on around here. Yea, Jelsoft owns this site, but they certainly don't control whats going on around here. So I'm going to continue doing what one of the staff members here said. I'm going to continue waisting my money on my own forums and open a site for commercial hacks. Yes, I'm going commercial since allot of people look down on that. But TheGeek said it best in his own post awhile back, and on the vBCast show as well. Everyone hates when people go commercial, and show know sign of support. Yet they support a commercial product such as vBulletin itself.

I'll continue to check in the coders forum from time to time. To help fellow coders out, but you will not see any more work produce and released my me on vBulletin.org. I also don't want my previous work to be trashed or deleted as allot of new members can still benefit from them. So long and farewell. Need to get ahold of me, well you can PM me or read my profile.

I'm sure this thread will eventually get closed, in hopes for it to get buried like the rest.

--
Best Regards,
Ken Iovino Jr

Code Monkey
12 May 2006, 05:26
I hear ya. I'm close to putting on my shoes and taking a walk as well. It's tough to work in a climate where you have no control over anything. And releasing hacks is work.

Lottis
12 May 2006, 06:49
Its a shame, that good coders feels like this.

hambil
12 May 2006, 07:30
I guess I'm too new here to know what this is all about. However, I do agree that vb.orgs rejection of all things commercial while being owned by a company that profits from our work, is bothersome to me.

Boofo
12 May 2006, 08:22
I hope you reconsider, Ken, when and if things do die down. I'd hate to lose another friend and fellow coder from here. ;)

Jay...
12 May 2006, 08:29
I cant believe things like this are happening. Jelsoft listen up, Coders are unhappy with your site, these are the coders that keep this site running, i suggest action is taken immediatley

Tony G
12 May 2006, 09:41
Although I understand it can be frustrating when the staff don't agree with your suggestions, you cannot honestly expect the staff to just do as you say. We're not your servants. If you make a suggestion we don't particularly like, we'll tell you. What, would you rather us just ignore it? Honestly, you say we aren't professional, but I don't see how disagreeing with members and having a discussion (not argument) about some suggestions makes us unprofessional. This forum exists for that purpose. This forum isn't us doing whatever you say. On your forum, if you have a suggestion forum, do you just wave your magic wand to whatever your members suggest? Some things suggested here are unreasonable, unethical, not economical and downright nasty and would make the staff look unprofessional which is what you don'y want to see from us.

Sorry to lose you, and I don't want you to go because you are a good contributor to the forums, but complaining because the staff scrutinize suggestions and comments made in this forum, which is its purpose, isn't a smart thing to say. I know I can look harsh sometimes, but that's just the way my posts sometimes come across. As I've said in another thread, it doesn't mean anyone here has a personal vendetta against you. Paul M gets this scrutiny the most because he is the most.. er... aggressive with suggestions and makes a lot of them. Doesn't mean I'm picking on him, or anyone else. I think he expects it when he posts here.

If you open your own hack forum, you'll learn this the hard way. Some members don't look at this from our perspective.. what can you do?

(I'm posting this because obviously you wanted some discussion on the topic. I'm not looking to be abused, its better than the staff not commenting at all. But I'm doing this in a friendly manner and I hope nobody takes this the wrong way)

Boofo
12 May 2006, 09:50
Since when am I not Staff? :cross-eyed:

Tony G
12 May 2006, 10:09
I mean directly to what he said. ;)
S'ok Boofo, you're important to all of us. :p

Logikos
12 May 2006, 10:12
Tony, I don't think you fully understand my first post. This has nothing to do with suggested features being turned down. The atmosphere around here just hasn't felt right for along time.

Chris M
12 May 2006, 11:00
I hope you reconsider Ken :)

I too remember the "good old days" when Chen was around, I was a carefree spammer (well I still am sorta :p) and we all had a great laugh, coded, chatted and the community spirit was never better :)

Sadly, I agree this has taken a fall in recent times, but let me turn it around on you - You want the community spirit back, but every time one of those who remember how it was leaves, a bit of what is left leaves with them, reducing it more for the rest of us and not accomplishing what you hoped when you leave...

I'm fairly new at this Staff malarky, and if I have come accross in any negative way, I apologise - I am simply trying to do my job here, like the rest of the Staff :)

But please don't be so harsh on us - We have a stressful time, we have to be civil and hold our tongue and think of how to behave properly on so many different occasions - We are only human, we make mistakes, we speak out at times when its probably best not to, and we can't be blamed for it either :)

People like you are a value to this site, not only because you remember what MyChenQL is but also because you contribute to the community and resources this site has to offer - Please don't let our being human make you leave :)

Chris

Boofo
12 May 2006, 11:03
Boy do I remember this! --> MyChenQL ;)

Chris M
12 May 2006, 11:05
It's my claim to fame :D

Chris

Paul M
12 May 2006, 17:19
As I've said in another thread, it doesn't mean anyone here has a personal vendetta against you. Paul M gets this scrutiny the most because he is the most.. er... aggressive with suggestions and makes a lot of them. Doesn't mean I'm picking on him, or anyone else. I think he expects it when he posts here.
I don't actually expect to be picked on :)

Whether you mean it or not, you cannot deny that you appear to have picked on a number of my posts recently and responded to them in a unfriendly manner - people have noticed this and a few have commented both in public and private - as I recall an administrator recently apologised about comments in a previous thread.

However, you state that it's not personal, and I'm happy to leave it at that. There is no benefit to anyone in a slanging match. :)

To Ken, I'm sorry you feel the need to leave, I hope that any disagreement between Tony and myself is not a contributing reason. :)

TeaTree
12 May 2006, 17:27
Who the hell would actually expect to be picked on?

hambil
12 May 2006, 17:35
Who the hell would actually expect to be picked on?
Me. I have very low self esteem.

Stop making fun of me.

I said stop.

Brandon Sheley
12 May 2006, 17:45
I for one am very greatful for all the hacks I've used. :)

The Geek
12 May 2006, 17:52
Wow. Thats a hit for .org - you're talent is going to be missed by many around here.

I don't bother bobbing round much anymore. My work torturing small animals and selling commercial scripts (many feel that the later is actually more cruel) keeps me pretty busy and you summed it up pretty well: Its just not the same kind of place anymore.
There are fewer and fewer contributors and even less people that actually read instructions about free modifications before slapping the reply button about.


The hack db will never see the light of day because it isn't important enough.
The discussions of a commercial directory listing for customers is dead (wasn't it always?) because it isn't important enough (that is - unless its a freaking skin - but don't get me started there!).
What customers gauge as important is not always what is viewed as important to the powers that be.


I think it would be a great idea for Jelsoft to host a think tank session with staff, coders and users on ways to improve the site. I also think it would be a good idea to have a couple PAID employees for .org. Volunteers only have so much time, patience and ability.

Good luck to you - you don't need it though with your skills though :)

peterska2
12 May 2006, 23:22
Good Luck LiveWire.

I totally am with you on this. There is a line, and it gets crossed a lot. Coders are people, and yet I know stray dogs that get treated better (a metaphor, not a dig at anyone inparticular). It's only a matter of time before all the experienced exceptional coders are gone, and why?, because of the state of things.

I'm not saying anything else on the subject as I don't want to start a flame war, but I'm sure there are those who feel me (not literally!), and those who just think I'm either crazy or talking jibberish.

Chris M
12 May 2006, 23:23
And those of us that know you are crazy ;) :D

Chris

Freesteyelz
13 May 2006, 00:36
Who the hell would actually expect to be picked on?

I don't think Tony meant it in the literal sense. Any time a member makes a suggesting there is a chance that it will be criticized by members and/or staff; sometimes it is well received. It's like hitting the jackpot. There are no fixed numerical or time intervals. I do give credit, however, to Paul M and Tony for squashing any differences (they may have had) in a diplomatic manner. :)

Now there will always be at least two sides to any issue. How you may perceive things may hold true for you but not for the other. Try to look at things from outside the bubble and you may see the world differently.

After this phase of bringing out the concerns I'd like to see some solutions in this community rather than looking elsewhere (i.e., Jelsoft). If we're ever going to get a grip on things we need to start looking internally.

Corriewf
13 May 2006, 01:11
I agree with you Ken... It is the reason I have not been around here lately... Also the reason why vBCast hasn't released something recently. If you do not get treated with respect, you do not want to give respect.

john1744
13 May 2006, 02:07
I know that I am very new, but I really dislike this site but only visit because of the great contributions that have been made by people on this site.

It seems as lately more and more coders are simply releasing mods that benefit themselves and usually slap a "not supported" slogan on the hack. While this is all good, it really discourages people who honestly do not quite get code.

I have a couple hundred posts, but I do not understand the programming languages. I enjoy and am grateful for the codes released, but as a new user I see one of those great little hacks that does just what I wanted, but if I have an issue and a coder wishes not to support it, I simply get verbally slapped and told with 200 posts surely by now I would know how to work out the problem.

The attitude at this site is honestly one of the worst I've experienced in help, I'm really appalled with it compared to the great support one usually receives at vbulletin.com, most of the time when someone replies their, the responses are quick, but very friendly. I just don't get that here.

As much as vb.com refers users here, you would think they would take a MUCH more active role in the way things work around here.

I don't know I just wouldn't be too proud of this site if I was running it. :(

Sorry, this sites just never appealed to me but its resources and users are invaluable to vBulletin.

Zachery
13 May 2006, 03:36
I have to say. sore attitudes are the reason that so many people don't like it here. Theres nothing stoping any one of you from taking time to attempt to fix the problems youself. Lots of people just complain but don't attacking take a part in the community. I understand not everyone wants to or has the ability to learn how to code, but that doesn't stop you from searching or helping others who might have been in the same boat as you. This is a community, everyone needs to do their own share and continbute what they can.

I also think that no only the users who come here to get hacks are to blame, but the coders who keep making it more and mroe easy and thus no one learns anything. The smart get smarter and the less smart never advance. "In the day" people were told to search and try fixing it themselfs. People came here expecting to have to do some dirty work in order to get their sites working.

This resource is here for people who wish to modify the way vBulletin works. Not a place to come and just get some hacks and be on your way. Its like a bittorrent site, people should just be able to leach, people should attempt to give back when possible.

We reffer people here when they _want_ a feature thats not in vBulletin, or they want it now and cannot wait for the next version. We cannot support third party code, but we try to make a place for people to work together and get the new features they want and desire. If you yourself are not willing to search and help others why should anyone give back to you?

Boofo
13 May 2006, 04:04
Although the syntax sucks in your statement, it was well said, sir. ;)

Kihon Kata
13 May 2006, 04:12
Welp, I find myself here chiming in LOL. Anyhow. I just wanted to chime my .02 in. I love this site and what it's about. I CAN tell you that I can and will do WITHOUT the drama(atho, find myself typing in some drama). I completely appreciate the coders here and everything they have brought to me and my board...what the HECK would I do without them?? Even though I am not well versed coder, I am learning. YOU HAVE ALL BEEN HERE. The hacks here are worth a TON to me. I would pay for subscribing to this site if I had to. I pay by purchasing many vB lics and hitting the "install" button to support the coders here.

I see some super talented coders here. I wish there was a section here where the coders who "wanted to sell" their hacks could offer them. Take the vBgeek as an example. His codes are sweeeeet, so he then branched off the ORG and took it commercial. I gladly paid for a hack from his site. The support was friggen PIMP!

To sum it up, Livewire's hacks are unsurpassed. Please don't go, but if you do go and continue to code it up, please let us know where ;)

Thanks to all and that includes everyone(plus props to the staff) THE ORG.

Freesteyelz
13 May 2006, 04:40
You are a forgiving man, Boofo. :lick:

Roms
13 May 2006, 05:16
LiveWire,

You're very talented. I more than agree if you feel that you and your work is not getting the respect you deserve than it's not worth your effort to stay.

Tony G
13 May 2006, 07:43
Tony, I don't think you fully understand my first post. This has nothing to do with suggested features being turned down. The atmosphere around here just hasn't felt right for along time.
I can't help but feel that is because of what's happening in this specific forum. =/

Tony G
13 May 2006, 07:54
I don't actually expect to be picked on :)

Whether you mean it or not, you cannot deny that you appear to have picked on a number of my posts recently and responded to them in a unfriendly manner - people have noticed this and a few have commented both in public and private - as I recall an administrator recently apologised about comments in a previous thread.

However, you state that it's not personal, and I'm happy to leave it at that. There is no benefit to anyone in a slanging match. :)

To Ken, I'm sorry you feel the need to leave, I hope that any disagreement between Tony and myself is not a contributing reason. :)
Picked on was maybe the wrong word but you expect the staff to reply and not always says "Great idea!"

I am happy to admit that some of my posts to your suggestions can come across as unfriendly and I don't have an excuse for that. And I've never denied that, all I denied was that I had some hate towards you. Sometimes you suggest the same thing over and over, sometimes you don't realise why one of your suggestions is unreasonable when I can, there are lots of factors. I try my absolute best to be as professional and friendly as possible but there is always that line. But I'm glad you at least accept that they aren't personal attacks. I'm just doing my job around here, and it's better than suggestions going unreplied to.

Being professional isn't always about being nice and accepting abuse without doing anything back. To me, professional comes through suggestions just being listened to, discussed by the staff and with members and a final decision being posted. I hope people see that too. I don't see how this amounts to coders being treated like stray dogs. And this site looking professional isn't just about the staff but the members too. Fueling arguments, abusing staff etc. doesn't make this place look any better and it doesn't make the atmosphere any friendlier. If members feel the atmosphere around here isn't as good as it used to be, you guys will need to do the work too to make it a better place, because its negative attitudes and threads like this which ruin it.

Daniel
13 May 2006, 08:06
Very unfortunate to see such a great coder leave... you will be missed.

Bubble #5
13 May 2006, 08:59
Wow. Thats a hit for .org - you're talent is going to be missed by many around here.
Great coders like LiveWire, PaulM, and The Geek (just to name a few) are the lifes blood of this site. Whether vB realizes it or not, it's all the great add-on hacks that keeps people coming back here and makes vB such an attractive package. The hacks at this site were 60-70% of the reason why this customer chose to give vB my hard earned money instead of Invision. Without good coders here this site will just fade away over time. Oh sure this site is 'relatively' strong now, but that's because there are still 'a few' good coders left here. What happens when there is only one or two mediocre coders here? Lets face it, we come here for the good add-on hacks, not tea and cookies. Unfortunately for this site, vB, and the vB community we lost a really great coder when LiveWire left. I think that vB shoots themself in the foot whenever they give great coders like LiveWire reasons to leave. I for one will miss his incredible hacks, not only because I know he must have invested a lot of time in designing them, but also because hacks aside, I know that LiveWire is a really good person. It's a sad day here at vB.org, and they are losing a lot more than just a really good coder :(

Freesteyelz
13 May 2006, 09:02
Lets face it, we come here for the good add-on hacks, not tea and cookies.


I'm not much for tea but I'm definitely in for the cookies. :classic:

Bubble #5
13 May 2006, 09:13
I'm not much for tea but I'm definitely in for the cookies.
Well fortunately for you your computer probably has plenty of them ;)

Zachery
13 May 2006, 09:19
Great coders like LiveWire, PaulM, and The Geek (just to name a few) are the lifes blood of this site. They are not, they are just part of the community, the other 99.99% of the users on this site are its lifeblood. Not a few users who do happen to code hacks.

Not to harp specificly on LiveWire, PAul, or The Geek. But I could possibly say that about most any coder here. One coder does not make or break this site, the entire community does. If EVERY signle person on this forum up and left, it'd be a differnt story. But they arn't and won't so I'd rather not worry about it.

Is it sad? Sure, but things will move on and people will get on with their lifes. Anyone who leaves this site for whatever reason should do so and not need to make a post about it.

Marco van Herwaarden
13 May 2006, 09:25
Great coders like LiveWire, PaulM, and The Geek (just to name a few) are the lifes blood of this site.That is life!!

If you take any community (or company) you will see that there will always be a few that (seem to) stick above the others. But in time these people will always change, some go, new ones stand up.

You could have made this same statement a few years ago, just changes a couple of names, nothing special going on here.

poolking
13 May 2006, 10:00
TonyG,

Just picked up on your point about being professional, it is not deemed professional to be nasty and give abuse back just because you receive it. Being a professional does not mean sinking yourself to the same level. Maybe you should look up being professional in a dictionary.

Boofo
13 May 2006, 10:05
TonyG,

Just picked up on your point about being professional, it is not deemed professional to be nasty and give abuse back just because you receive it. Being a professional does not mean sinking yourself to the same level. Maybe you should look up being professional in a dictionary.

Believe it or not, we Staff are actually humans, too, which means we do make mistakes and sometimes let our emotions cloud an issue we are trying to address. (Takes long breath). I agree, that does not make any adverse actions we take right, but understanding is a 2-way street that we both must accept if we are going to get along in the community. ;)

Logikos
13 May 2006, 10:13
Anyone who leaves this site for whatever reason should do so and not need to make a post about it

I think after spending 4 years here, releasing over 30 hacks, which could take someone hours, weeks, or even months deserves the right to state there opions to the rest of the community, and post a farewell thread if they feel the need to. To be honest, any member who feels the need to leave should have the option to create a post about it. You welcome introduction threads here, why not welcome farewell threads?

Maybe I'm just taking your post out of content, but the fact of the matter is. Jelsoft does not recognize coders for the great work they do. Alot of features you see in the vBulletin package now, came from hardcore coders from the past. I think they aleast deserve a thanks or some form of credit where credit is due. Almost every coder here will thank other coders in there threads when they help them out, or point to the original idea that was requested to show that the idea was taken from so and so. Coders give more respect to fellow coders alike then Jelsofts development and managment team does. Thats where the main problem lies.

If coders where to be treated as an aset to this site, then I'm sure alot of us wouldn't have quit.

vbulletin.org was a board for coders
emphasis added

stinger2
13 May 2006, 10:27
maybe i don't have the right to respond but this thread is important

if you click quick links and then unanswered threads.you will get 20 pages ..each page with 20 posts....and there might be more.

that is another sphere than from the past..

not to be rude to staff here...they are great.....but livewire has a point and one fact is for sure....if it was not for the hacks and addons..vbulletin would not be so popular..

some compromise is necessary from both parts...staff and coders

bashy
13 May 2006, 11:07
Its a sad time when a respected member decides to leave, More so after all the hard work they have contributed, After all it is thier work that keeps a place like this as popular as it is!!

I know from experience what its like to be singled out, I was once more popular and respected than the staff on a certain forum and my life was made hell, they picked up on the slightest of mistake and i was banned for life, albeit your leaving of your own accord but it can be classed as constructive!

I have only been here since November so i dont really know the ins and outs of said issues, I have noticed a few members being abrupt in posts but i take this with a pinch of salt, this is just the way forums are.....

Peeps generally type how it sounds in there head, it may sound completely different to another member, it all depend on how you want to read into it. You will always get this on forums, more so 1 of this size...

Its a shame you cant work this out with the parties invovled and stick around, your hacks/addons are great and i have prob tried most if not all for my version of VB

I do hope that you reconsider, if not good luck in with what you venture in to next and take care!!!

The Geek
13 May 2006, 12:06
nothing special going on here.

Exactly!!! Its all going somewhere else :)

People come and go from communities - that is for certain. However when serious contributors are bullied out - there is a problem. Couple that with the fact that you're those bailing are the ones that give your customers a reason to come on to this site and you have a serious problem. Surely losing actual contributing customers from this site should spark more than a 'hoo hum. It's only another coder leaving'.

Most staff are apathetic. They just want their lives to be easier (after all, they volunteer their time here). Therefore they think its an improvement if more of the vocal users bailed (even if they are the ones contributing work for the site).

Eventually, Livewires farewell thread will be buried. He'll be gone, .org will continue to run the same tired ship in the same tired direction - ignoring those customers and contributors that scream to go someplace different. More coders will jump ship and soon you'll be left with an empty hold.

Instigating some change. Celebrating the talent that contributes around here.

Your user to producder ration just went further out of whack ;)

Boofo
13 May 2006, 12:14
As usual, sir, you're blowing things way out of proportion and making predictions that are never going to happen. You talk about tiresome. ;)

Logikos
13 May 2006, 12:14
Yes, this thread will get closed/moved and buried. The staff will say that this doesn't belong in this forum even when the forum clearly states to Please let us know what you think about us in here!.

Like The Geek said, Instigating some change and celebrating the talent that contributes around here will begin to move this forum back in the direct it used to be in. Untill that happens this will be an ongoing circle. Sooner or later vBulletin is going to release another major version and no one will be able to get great hacks with out paying for them.

Paul M
13 May 2006, 12:45
They are not, they are just part of the community, the other 99.99% of the users on this site are its lifeblood. Not a few users who do happen to code hacks.Really ? - how long do you think the site would last if the "few users who do happen to code hacks" stopped and left ?

According to the modifications page there are ;

User Statistics: Coder: 390, Advanced Coder: 53, Master Coder: 11I would guess that less than 75% of them are still active (actually it's probably worse than that). You are right that no one coder should be considered more important, but in reality some do play a much more active role than others, and alienating them is not going to do you any good - and remember, as a group they are very important - no coders = no mods = no site - it's pretty much as simple as that. :)

Princeton
13 May 2006, 13:05
I think after spending 4 years here, releasing over 30 hacks, which could take someone hours, weeks, or even months deserves the right to state there opions to the rest of the community, and post a farewell thread if they feel the need to. To be honest, any member who feels the need to leave should have the option to create a post about it. You welcome introduction threads here, why not welcome farewell threads?

Your'e absolutely correct.
In fact, I agree with a lot that has been said (from all parties).

NOTE: This "farewell thread" should go into the LOUNGE fourm -- not the SITE FEEDBACK forum. Hence, I moving the thread.

kurtbarker
13 May 2006, 13:10
I was happy to leave this thread alone until I saw this
They are not, they are just part of the community, the other 99.99% of the users on this site are its lifeblood. Not a few users who do happen to code hacks

ok, that is 'technically' true, you can say that all members contribute to the site, but it wouldn't suprise me if to every 1 coder, if there where 100 non-coders... [someone correct me if you get accurate stats], so that would mean to every coder that left, you could say you're losing 100 members, because that would be the ratio... what would happen if all 450 odd coders left, you reckon the few thousand non-coders could keep this place together? what is vBulletin.org without hacks?

I seriously hope that the coders here do stay, and I am really sorry if you have made up your mind... You guyz are the lifeblood of this place, even if the moderators refuse to see that

stinger2
13 May 2006, 13:25
They are not, they are just part of the community, the other 99.99% of the users on this site are its lifeblood. Not a few users who do happen to code hacks

how odd..that was also the reason i responded to this thread....lol

Tralala
13 May 2006, 13:42
NOTE: This "farewell thread" should go into the LOUNGE fourm -- not the SITE FEEDBACK forum. Hence, I moving the thread.

Sorry, this gave me a chuckle.

Carry on.

Immortal
13 May 2006, 14:06
They are not, they are just part of the community, the other 99.99% of the users on this site are its lifeblood. Not a few users who do happen to code hacks.

It's that kind of attitude made vB.org what it is now. I may be rather new to vB.org but I can sense a problem, and that just supports it.

hambil
13 May 2006, 14:06
NOTE: This "farewell thread" should go into the LOUNGE fourm -- not the SITE FEEDBACK forum. Hence, I moving the thread.
Sorry, but that was lame. We're all admins here, and we're not stupid.

The Geek
13 May 2006, 15:40
I could have sworn this was a discussion about the site - however I guess it looks better being in the lounge - plus it will get buried faster!

I should have known that celebrating coders here was a prediction that would never happen. Now I've got confirmation from one of the ol boys club that its so :)

Oddly, Im not really seeing many site users disagreeing with sentiments expressed here - well, other than the staff of course ;)

Geez, can't you guys just admint that things could be a little cooler for those that contribute to the community and agree that you'll look into any opportunity to improve the situation if possible? Stop being so 'ol boys club'ish and see if you guys can be a force of positive change instead of working so hard to say that there is nothing that needs to be changed :D

BTW: according to Pauls figures up there, less than 4% of the members of this site have ever released anything. ;)

Zachery
13 May 2006, 16:00
Really ? - how long do you think the site would last if the "few users who do happen to code hacks" stopped and left ?

According to the modifications page there are ;

I would guess that less than 75% of them are still active (actually it's probably worse than that). You are right that no one coder should be considered more important, but in reality some do play a much more active role than others, and alienating them is not going to do you any good - and remember, as a group they are very important - no coders = no mods = no site - it's pretty much as simple as that. :)

Titles mean nothing, there are people on this site who have released incrediblily well thought out and developed mods, and they will only ever releaase one, a title is nothing more than a shiney badge. Somehow I'm an advanced coder here Dunno how that happenend.

It's that kind of attitude made vB.org what it is now. I may be rather new to vB.org but I can sense a problem, and that just supports it.So trying to concenctrate on the other 99% of the community instead of the one or two users who are leaving?

I should have known that celebrating coders here was a prediction that would never happen. Now I've got confirmation from one of the ol boys club that its so :)
Ah, see, I think the coders who do actively work and release stuff do deserve celbration, but its not going to happen when they are trying to make a sence.

Alot of features you see in the vBulletin package now, came from hardcore coders from the past. I think they aleast deserve a thanks or some form of credit where credit is due. Almost every coder here will thank other coders in there threads when they help them out, or point to the original idea that was requested to show that the idea was taken from so and so. Coders give more respect to fellow coders alike then Jelsofts development and managment team does. Thats where the main problem lies I'm here and was here and at vBT as a coder, and user before I was staff. I have the utmost respect for the coders. The people who actively contribute to this site and want nothing more back than the praise of the people they work for. I see coders as people who develop hacks for their own needs, not for praise.


On the subject of users leaving, everytime one person leaves, a few more will come and take their place. This has never changed, you leave today, tomorrow a new coder will start and get reoniczed etc. I'm sorry that you feel you need to leave the community, but thats your choice, your mind is made up and theres nothing that can stop you.

Mephisteus
13 May 2006, 16:21
Titles mean nothing, there are people on this site who have released incrediblily well thought out and developed mods, and they will only ever releaase one, a title is nothing more than a shiney badge. Somehow I'm an advanced coder here Dunno how that happenend.
Because you made and released hacks that were liked? The badge is earned, therefor it means something. If a lot of badges were to get up and leave it would suddenly become a very nice badge to have indeed. A title is a tribute to what you have accomplished, don't say its nothing.

So trying to concenctrate on the other 99% of the community instead of the one or two users who are leaving?
No, just don't ignore or beat down the ones that are leaving.

Ah, see, I think the coders who do actively work and release stuff do deserve celbration, but its not going to happen when they are trying to make a sence.
Not quite sure what you are saying there. I am just assuming that that last word is supposed to be 'scene'.
People stand up for what they want, they will say it and just leave if it doesn't happen. Explaining why is basically showing respect to people by not just disappearing, and allowing for some discussion to come up to resolve the issue.

I'm here and was here and at vBT as a coder, and user before I was staff. I have the utmost respect for the coders. The people who actively contribute to this site and want nothing more back than the praise of the people they work for. I see coders as people who develop hacks for their own needs, not for praise.
Some people make em for praise, most for their own needs (which is not quite true, they started for their own needs but proper documentation + support is not for yourself, but for others) or completely for someone else's need. The coders here aren't selfish, if they were, well, they wouldn't be here.

On the subject of users leaving, everytime one person leaves, a few more will come and take their place. This has never changed, you leave today, tomorrow a new coder will start and get reoniczed etc. I'm sorry that you feel you need to leave the community, but thats your choice, your mind is made up and theres nothing that can stop you.
If enough people get up and leave it won't go back to what it was. It'll leave a scar, simple as that. The new coders won't show up for quite a while since they will see what happened or hear about and procedingly (if the reasons are good enough) steer clear.


I have seen attitudes like yours wreck things before, and not just sites.

hambil
13 May 2006, 16:21
On the subject of users leaving, everytime one person leaves, a few more will come and take their place. This has never changed, you leave today, tomorrow a new coder will start and get reoniczed etc. I'm sorry that you feel you need to leave the community, but thats your choice, your mind is made up and theres nothing that can stop you.
This upsets me. I've worked for companies most of my life who treated me this way. A piece of meat. Replaceable. I left that grind because of that attitude. I didn't expect to find it here too.

Immortal
13 May 2006, 16:27
Zachery, you will need to learn how to respect users. We do this for free, and you need to learn to respect us. We are telling you what needs to be changed, but instead, you keep thinking "new ones will replace these", what if they don't? But they might, and they will probably have the same fate (if it comes down to it) with the majority of them leaving. We are trying to send you a message here, things need to change whether you like or not. The way things are now, are not working out. We are telling you how it is, and not demanding things. We all don't get paid for doing these types of things, like you do. And you being the one with the salary, need to learn how to treat others equally and with respect. Just because you wear a vB.com badge does not make you any better then us, honestly I could careless. You are just another individual to me, and probably most everyone here thinks of you the same way.

Chroder
13 May 2006, 16:36
There are definitely problems with vBorg, which is why I try to stay away as much as possible. I come here to browse and the tension is almost palpable. I can hardly stand to browse, let alone post work that I've done. Then coming to read this thread to hear Zack saying the coders of this forum (which are also customers) are nothing but expendable. I just adore how the staffers love us so!

If we leave, new coders may come. But the problems will always remain unless something is done.

Zachery
13 May 2006, 16:39
Yes, things do need to change. But not in the way most of you are thinking. Remember, I devoted tons of my own personal time to vBT before I was staff, do you know how many professional companys out there started using my code for vB3 instead of writing their own? There are tons of pre-made styles, and even custom ones that use my tutoirals written at vBulletinTemplates and vBulletin.org.

I respect every coder who wants to be here to help the community. There are tons of people here who have gone way above and beyond the call and done more than they need to.

Just because you wear a vB.com badge does not make you any better then us, honestly I could careless. You are just another individual to me, and probably most everyone here thinks of you the same way. You are absolutly right, good, I want you to not give me any more special treatment than you would anyone else. And I never expect special treatment from anyone, nor did I ask for it. Good, as it should be, Lets keep it that way then.

I work my ass off on my hacks here and I'm not paid for it, my vB.org time is not reembursed with money, but with the users I educate. If I can walk away educating a few users every day on how to code, even if its as simple as html I've done my job.
I have a problem with the coders who are here for their own personal agendas and reasons.

Paul M
13 May 2006, 16:44
Titles mean nothingAs you (should) well know - on this site coder/adv/master/designer basically means you have contributed work (since one hack + 10 installs qualifies you as a coder, something similar for template mods) I would think that 99% of people who have released work here have one of these titles - and yet you just dismiss them out of hand as 'nothing'. You can have 200,000 users, but with no coders/designers there is nothing for them.

Trana
13 May 2006, 16:49
If members feel the atmosphere around here isn't as good as it used to be, you guys will need to do the work too to make it a better place, because its negative attitudes and threads like this which ruin it.

I think this comment is a bit ridiculous. It is obvious to most of the people who have been here for a while that there is a problem, yet the moderators of this site say that the problem should be resolved by the members?

I think the mods could do a much better version of making peace on this board and it shouldn't fall on the members. If my site wasn't doing well, I would sit down all the moderators and put together a list of ideas on how to make it better. You shouldn't expect your members to carry a "broken" site forever, eventually they will find a place that meets their needs better and move on. It seems like a lot of them have already.


On the subject of users leaving, everytime one person leaves, a few more will come and take their place.

I don't see how this works. On my boards, if someone that no one knows leaves, nothing happens, but if a long time contributing member disappears or posts a goodbye message, I make sure that one of the mods (normally myself) sit down with the person individually to determine if there was something that upset them or something the site could have done to keep their interest.

The people that are joining now are not going to get good at developing hacks for a while (mainly due to the product/plugin system). If a good person and good coder was leaving, I wouldn't dismiss it as easily as you have.

Boofo
13 May 2006, 17:24
I should have known that celebrating coders here was a prediction that would never happen. Now I've got confirmation from one of the ol boys club that its so :)

Once again, as usual, you twist a statement to suit your needs. You never seem to disappoint me in the predictability department. ;)

Zachery
13 May 2006, 17:32
I would like to take the moment to set the record straight for any of you I might have offended. I have the utmost respect for every person on this site who has taken the time to help someone, write a line of code, or done a good deed just by pointing someone in the right direction. The fact of the matter is every year coders come and go. No one really notices most of the time. I'm really sad to see anyone leaving this site for whatever reasons. I personally don't think that Ken (Livewire) went about this in the best way. I know he will be missed by quiet a few people here. I've personally never got to know him so I've got nothing to say about him one way or another. But I don't remember such a huge outburst when others left the community, or possibly faded away.

Lots of the current problems as everyone sees here now are due to a lack of community participation. Not everyone who is getting something is attempting to give something back.

Now I need to be off to my girlfriends graduation.

The Geek
13 May 2006, 17:32
Thats a little hypocritical isn't it? ;)

You never fail to disappoint me in the 'where can I find a good curmudgeon?' department?

This site isn't run or directed by the community. Its directed by an ol boys club that:
1- Disregards ideas outside their own circle
2- Resists change not instigated by the inside circle
3- Dismisses contributers to the site (customers)

You should be embarrassed to imply that the people who actually release work on here for your customers are easily replaced.

They are the community. Not you. ;)

Zachery
13 May 2006, 17:34
Thats a little hypocritical isn't it? ;)

You never fail to disappoint me in the 'where can I find a good curmudgeon?' department?

This site isn't run or directed by the community. Its directed by an ol boys club that:
1- Disregards ideas outside their own circle
2- Resists change not instigated by the inside circle
3- Dismisses contributers to the site (customers)

You should be embarrassed to imply that the people who actually release work on here for your customers are easily replaced.

They are the community. Not you. ;)
I can't say any one word of that is true.

Boofo
13 May 2006, 17:36
Thats a little hypocritical isn't it? ;)

Only is the hypocrisy is true, as in this case. ;)

You never fail to disappoint me in the 'where can I find a good curmudgeon?' department?

You've resorted to name calling and using age as a weapon. Predictability and immaturity both win this time. ;)

Danny.VBT
13 May 2006, 17:38
I'm trying to understand this, but I really can't.

People are stating that vBulletin.org is going in a bad direction...so they leave the forums and abandon all their hacks. This all seems a little hypocritical to me. You state you want a change for the better on vbulletin.org, but you leave which is only causing more trouble, uproar, and negative outbursts.

I just saw another thread in the Lounge Forums stating that coders should "walk out", until things are changed. In my opinion, this is not the way to get things to change.

The staff listens to every single suggestion that is posted in the Feedback forum. And a lot of these suggestions are in the process of being implemented. But to think that every single suggestion here could be implemented (and implemented quickly) is nonsensical.

As for the coders, I respect every single coder on this forum. I know the dedication and talent all of you posses and I would hate to see any of you leave as you're all a significant part of the community.

In my opinion the decline of vbulletin.org is on everyone’s part. It’s just one big cycle that has caused the community to lose the values it once had; where every member respected one another.

Regular members make negative demands/comments on hacks -> Coders get frustrated and lose respect for regular members and decide not to help people -> everyone is now aggravated and create threads like these.

Next time you see a thread asking for help? Help them! Next time you install hack? Thank the author for their hard work!

This alone will begin to improve the community.

And I just want to restate this fact, despite being repetitious because it’s important; the staff takes every single suggestion into consideration. If the suggestion is a good idea, and it’s possible we suggest plans of implementation and then we begin the actual process of getting it implemented. This process may take a long time, but it does happen.

Personally, I’ve tried my very best to be kind, courteous, and friendly to every single member on vbulletin.org. I know there have been times when I’ve made unjust outbursts to members, but I’ve apologized to them afterwards every single time. If you feel you’ve been treated unfairly, just confront the staff member or one of the Administrators in a private message and it will be worked out.

And finally, I apologize for this very long post. :D

Floris
13 May 2006, 17:47
Whee, what a big thread - and not unique in its' kind.

** Edit out, MarcoH64 **

I will say this as a staff member: I am not too happy to see how things are going and will point this thread out to a few other Jelsoft staff members and the cross site manager. Just a FYI.

libertate
13 May 2006, 17:53
I hate to say this, but this is nothing new...

I stopped coding 20 years ago because I was also burned out from constant demand and no positive feedback. (This is back in the BBS/freenet/ freeware/shareware era.)

The reality is that users will be just that - USErs...

Programmers will come and go. Some will become commercial like you hope to, some will fade into oblivion (like me).

If you code to get some appreciation back then you will be, and as it seems, sorely disappointed, as many have before you.

You have to learn to code for the pure pleasure of coding.

I couldn't.

I do still apreciate a finely written code - and give cudos where it is due - but is it enough? Is it ever enough?

Logikos
13 May 2006, 17:54
Why was this thread moved?

The Lounge - Sit back in your lazy-boy recliner and chat away. This forum intends to host any kind of chat except vbulletin and hacking issues!

Site Feedback
Please let us know what you think about us in here!

This is bullshit. You move the thread here so it doesn't get the attention is deserves. I'm asking that this thread get moved to the proper place, please.


----------------------------

Titles mean nothing
Thanks, the one thing vBulletin.org does gives us means nothing. Well let me tell you something. When I first joined here, the title meant alot to me. Not because of some line of text, because it meant that I took my time out to create work for a community and I would be rewarded with a title. It's the only thing that seperates the users and coders. Nothing agaist the users who don't code, if it wasn't for them. I wouldn't have ever made the master title. To simply throw out the only thing you give coders is a disgrace. I wear my title proudly, and I think I deserve to also. As any other coder does to.

On the subject of users leaving, everytime one person leaves, a few more will come and take their place.
Don't you see.. THATS THE PROBLEM!!!!! you can't look at this community in that aspect. Maybe if things changes around here, you wouldn't have to worry about coders leaving and new coders coming in. You would simply get old coders staying and new coders coming and older and newer coders working together. Which means what? MORE CODERS vs Users.

and just for the record. EVERY hack listed on my profile was not coded for me. I don't use ANY of my hacks listed in my profile. There simply there for others.

Tralala
13 May 2006, 18:14
This site isn't run or directed by the community. Its directed by an ol boys club that:
1- Disregards ideas outside their own circle
2- Resists change not instigated by the inside circle
...


I'm relatively new here and doing my best to learn, show my appreciation, and become a contributor. I've read, read, and read some more... answer as many questions that I can, and I've recently released my first hack. (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?p=968717)

I will say that I have noticed the behavior/attitude that The Geek has referenced above.

There's a palpable sense of one-upmanship and "powertrippiness" going on here, and I often see it coming from the mods. If a new idea to improve the forum (in terms of function, utility or design) is floated by a coder or a member, it's shot down immediately, which puts the suggesting party on the defensive. Then others have to come forth and "lobby" for the idea, and then the mods (sometimes) open their eyes and actually read/think about the request before discussing it rationally. I can think of a few threads as an example of this, but I'll leave those out for now, so we can focus on "the bigger picture."

I suppose this sort of clash is inevitable when you gather a bunch of alpha-geeks, who all enjoy the power associated with running their own forums. I do think the forum as a whole would benefit if everyone took a deep breath and got over themselves for a bit.

Hambil's suggesting a "Codeout" here. (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=115459) I think the lines of dialog need to open up; the folks feeling disaffected should gather their thoughts to determine what specifically it is they want, and what they expect. And they need to be realistic.

Hoping for "attitudes to change" won't do anything. Concrete requests should be made so concrete changes can happen.

Just my $0.02.

Code Monkey
13 May 2006, 18:30
I work my ass off on my hacks here and I'm not paid for it, my vB.org time is not reembursed with money, but with the users I educate. If I can walk away educating a few users every day on how to code, even if its as simple as html I've done my job.
I have a problem with the coders who are here for their own personal agendas and reasons.

Translation. You have a problem woth the coders who's agenda's don't line up with your agenda. Everyone has an agenda, everyone.

Bubble #5
13 May 2006, 18:43
They are not, they are just part of the community
This is the kind of disrespect toward the coders that will eventually implode a site like this, and eventually vB itself. The coders here are not "just part" of the community, they're key framework that a community like this is built upon. Do you think your house would be standing for very long if you removed its framework? Likewise, if you're going to be so cavalier about an important issue such as this, then all of us paying customers will just make some popcorn and watch this site, and ultimately vB's sales, sink like the Titanic. It seems to me that the decision makers of the Titanic once thought that they were unstoppable to.


the other 99.99% of the users on this site are its lifeblood.
Talk about putting the cart before the horse. Why do you think that people come here in the first place? Here's a clue; remove all of the hacks that are here, prevent any new ones from being posted, and you'll soon learn what most of us vB customers already know.


One coder does not make or break this site
I agree, one single coder does not make or break this site. However when it's one coder after another, after another, then like Chinese water torture all of the good coders will have left and gone somewhere else. Now all of a sudden it's a totally different issue. Sounds to me like you think this is a power struggle. It isn't. The coders are doing this in part because they are not given the respect that they are rightfully due. A good leader would seize a situation like this and use it as an opportunity to make this site better, not pour more salt on its wounds. I agree with you that there are a few coders that have used this site as a stepping stone for their own benefit, but we are not talking about those coders. Certainly LiveWire is not one of those coders. He has bent over backwards here and at other sites to help vB customers when his only benifit is knowing that someone who needed help received it. As a customer he has helped me when vB staff has not. It's disturbingly sad that you can't realize what an asset he is here. No doubt he will certainly be missed by the vB customers here.


If EVERY signle person on this forum up and left, it'd be a differnt story.
Well there's an obvious statement :rolleyes: I'll even go one better. If people stop having a reason to come here it will adversely effect vB as a company. Here's an example for you. I was about to buy another copy of Vb next month. However, because of all of the cavalier comments like the one that you made above toward the coders here, I will not. That money will now stay in my pocket until I, as a paying customer, can be reassured that the product that I'm paying for is going to be supported by the "coding community". Like most customers I do not have the ability to code very well, which is why I appreciate it so much when others who can code, donate their time and their hacks to a site like this. I didn't buy vB just for its default features, I bought it because of its expandability, but when you think about it all forum software is expandable, and upon closer inspection it's really the caliber of the coding community here that make the big difference. Simply put; No good hacks - no reason for people to buy this software over Invision (or any other brand) that IS supported by a solid coding community. I think most resonable people would agree that if it wasn't for a site like this, that vB wouldn't be so appealing, and you can paint it any way that you want, but the bottom line is that this site is only as good as its coders. It appears to some of us as customers that the higher-ups at vB can't make that fundamental connection. I can't begin to tell you how surprised (and disappointed) I am to learn that fact. One way or another this site will ultimately be shaped through decisions that ultimately shape its environment. I think an open thread like this one is very important. Constructive criticism may not be easy to read, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things, and as we all know when something unhealthy is ignored, its potential to die increases. If all the good coders leave this site then you don't have to be a psychic to know where that will lead. I love vB, I really do, and I hope that they take one step back and realize just how important having good coders here is.

AWS
13 May 2006, 19:00
Sorry to see any person that contributes as much as you do leave the community.
The points you raise are valid and have been for a while now. There are staff members that are genuine and I beleive do have community interest in mind. There are others that have God complexes and show it every time they post.
It is sad that the attitude of a few are driving away the backbone of this site. I hope that once Floris brings this to the attention of Wayne that wholesale changes are made. As someone else said in this thread, if the coders leave the site will die.

The Geek
13 May 2006, 19:13
You've resorted to name calling and using age as a weapon. Predictability and immaturity both win this time. ;)

The only thing predictable round these parts is the lack of change and the fact that as soon as I post - you pop in your two bits in any attempt you can to 'discredit me'. Boofo is the anti geek! :D

If all suggestions are taken on board, what about the commercial hack directory or the hack database? There has been little more than peeps on these points.

Anyhooo, reserve the next post for Boofo. He'll be killing himself to respond.

Logikos
13 May 2006, 19:16
Sorry Geek, I butted in :p

Anyways, Bubble #5. I really appriacte the support. It means alot to me to know that my work here is appreciated from everyone here.

I didn't create this thread to stir things up, or tick the staff off. I had to state that obvious things going on around here. I had to tell .org what I think about the site. Thats why this was in the feedback forum. If you want to try and start to changes things. There here are a few suggestions from me.


I personally would organize the forums alittle diffrently. It seems very cluttered at the moment, at least to me it does. (thats just something small)
Create a forum structure for coders. Allow our involment in what gets implamented and what shouldn't. Not saying we should have the final say, but at least allow use to have an area where staff and coders can chat about the future things that can be implamented.

Then when 1 idea gets implamented. Instead adding it to a todo list for one of the staff members to handle, we should have a forum that coders can access to help create and code the project. Kinda like a vBulletin.org develoment team.

stop keeping everything such a secret to the community. God forbid if someone knows the values for certain titles. Everyone knows now since it has been changed.
create a release forum that would host big projects coded by many coders here on vb.org
setup a donation hack that allows users to donate to authors if they want to. When a user donates any ammount, allow that user to have a icon in that hack that showing that they have contribuate to the coder via donation


These are just a few examples I had in mind. There are others, but my post is getting long enough for me, and frankly I rather not waste my time trying anymore. You say that coders leaving will only make the situation worst. Your absolutely 100% correct. Though, after dealing with it for so long, you simply give up trying.

I tried to be helpful here http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showpost.php?p=971864&postcount=10 but my post was ignored. The original thread was posted over a month ago and has yet to be fixed. I posted the code to correct this issue but nothings been done. If we had something like the above mentioned features, things like that wouldn't happen as often, and coders wouldn't be leaving the site or starting a petition.

Revan
13 May 2006, 19:22
Disclaimer: I don't speak for all the coders. I speak for me, but I take liberties of assuming that to a certain extent, some of my fellow coders agree with me.
Also, when I use the term coder, in all cases where designers feel affected by what I say (for better or worse), I mean both coder and designer. I just cba to write "coders and designers" 572 times. Sue me.

They are not, they are just part of the community, the other 99.99% of the users on this site are its lifeblood. Not a few users who do happen to code hacks.

Not to harp specificly on LiveWire, PAul, or The Geek. But I could possibly say that about most any coder here. One coder does not make or break this site, the entire community does. If EVERY signle person on this forum up and left, it'd be a differnt story. But they arn't and won't so I'd rather not worry about it.

Is it sad? Sure, but things will move on and people will get on with their lifes. Anyone who leaves this site for whatever reason should do so and not need to make a post about it.This post has a level of ignorance I hardly thought possible.
Not to mention the fact that I find it offensive.
I don't want to appear as having a "holier than thou" attitude but it is a fact that it's the coders that make this site. As others have stated, what would vBulletin.org be without the coders? Check out the 3.5 Modification Requests forum. 25% of the threads on the first page (at the time of writing this) has no replies. 50% of the remaning threads have 1-5 replies saying "I second this request". Exactly 3 threads have more than 5 posts which would indicate either a whole lot of "seconded" or maybe actually some serious discussion.
My point? The fact that none of these threads gets any involvement from the coders because they don't feel like it's worth their time. I count myself in that group. Every coder that reads a request and lets it fly Ill wager thinks something like "meh, this isn't worth my time".
Why do coders think like this? Because of the attitude depicted above. Coders are replaceable. Guess what, we don't come in an infinite supply. Surely you all must have noticed that the coder count dwindles and the number of "help me plix" increases.
What makes a newbie into a coder? Willpower and motivation. The newbie is responsible for the willpower, vbulletin.org (I mean everybody. Staff, coders and other members) is responsible for the motivation. vBulletin.org, at this point, is unable to provide the motivation.

I refuse to believe the willpower of the members has changed simply due to the fact that the plugin system appeared. If people want to learn how to code, then they will learn how to code if they are supplied with motivation.
What I feel that vBulletin.org is doing wrong, is not offer any form of incentive for coders to help supply motivation. There are a few points which could help amend this:

Make the coders feel wanted and needed.
It may sound stupid and make the coders sound selfish, but guess what, we aren't all commies. Recieving more positive feedback from users that installed our hacks goes a long way since we are all doing it for free.

Now I am not saying the staff alone is responsible for the abovementioned. But as I stated, all of vBorg need to help with supplying motivation, and I believe that what of the above members could do, they should do.
Now I know what some of you equalists are thinking. "z0mg, coders aren't worth more than Bob or Jane" (no offense to Boobiefool or his 16 year old girlfriend), but guess what, on this site, coders are the only ones who contribute to this site in any worthwhile amount. This is not a bloody Sports site where you argue whos going to win the Super Bowl, people! This is a place where coders can share their work and rest easier knowing that all them Jack Sparrows of the world (Pirates) don't get their dirty hands on their work as easily as they would if this was an FTP directory. Give me one good reason why vBorg shouldn't cater more to the coders (yes, this means the hack db, commercial scripts, and more than just a cozy little private forum).

To return to the first statement in the quoted post from Zachery:
They are not, they are just part of the community, the other 99.99% of the users on this site are its lifeblood. Not a few users who do happen to code hacks.Allow me to match this segment up against another statement made:
vbulletin.org was a board for codersI believe it's time for the coders to take back vBorg. We are the backbone of this board. Yeah, I do believe we should have a greater influence on how this board works, mainly because we are directly generating income for Jelsoft. It's been said over and over again, many people buy vB because of the amount of great hacks that can do whatever they would want their bbs do beyond threads and sigs.
If coders were put in a different usergroup, with a colored username, I believe this would be a bigger incentive. It would be more than just 9pt text that changed. It would be something more significant. It would mean you are a contributor to this community. Tell me, my fellow coders: How many of you look upon your "x Coder" title and feel that you are being recognised as a valuable contributor to this site? I sure as hell don't, not anymore.
Also I believe that such a change would offer at least part of the motivation the users would need to become coders. You would feel like you were noticed. So I don't see how this is bad for the community.

vBorg need to stop thinking so much about the vast majority of people that only come here to get support for their hacks and post questions. Take the commercial hacks thread. 90% of the posts from normal members were as ignorant as Zacherys post or close to it, or just sheer dumb. That skewed the results. What the members think is not always what is going to incent the coders to stay here. I can sit here and claim their opinion hold little value to me (beyond royally pissing me off) because they don't contribute. Most of them come here to leech. Who cares if they dont agree with coders wanting to get a little money for their countless hours of work? If you want to talk replaceable, you should look at the members. I don't actually remember the username of a single regular member, but I know the names of a fair few coders.

vBorg is no longer a community of coders. It is a place where those that don't have the energy to commit to the commercial world or don't want to lose the anti-piracy security come and release their mods. That is what has been degrading this site. This decline will continue. Coders will not be infinitely replaced.
I don't like where this is going, do you?

Boofo
13 May 2006, 19:32
Well said. ;)

/me checks Jane's birth certificate and wonders why she said she was older.

Logikos
13 May 2006, 19:34
What makes a newbie into a coder? Willpower and motivation. The newbie is responsible for the willpower, vbulletin.org (I mean everybody. Staff, coders and other members) is responsible for the motivation.


Thats my friend, is exacly the statment I was looking for. Let me quote this beatiful quote just once more. I wouldn't want anyone to miss it.


What makes a newbie into a coder? Willpower and motivation. The newbie is responsible for the willpower, vbulletin.org (I mean everybody. Staff, coders and other members) is responsible for the motivation.

Mephisteus
13 May 2006, 19:38
Very well put Revan, I couldn't agree more.

Back when I begun I was very much an amateur to coding. The main reason that I didn't stop at one hack was because I got help and support from a few coders who had been around the block and remained positive. Xenon, Lesane, Boofoo were major help and encouragement. After reading some of the PMs I sent. The poor grammar in it, the fact that I was 14/15 years old... they still were patient helping me greatly with a few hacks.

That however, is a long time ago.

Mr Chad
13 May 2006, 19:39
I wouldnt mind seeing those in actions into effect :)

Logikos
13 May 2006, 19:46
Same thing here Mephisteus. I was a newbie, but coders from the vb2 days were very helpful to me. They supplied the motivation that made me stay up for days and miss work, or school. All I wanted to do was code, code, code. If it wasn't for the coders, I would not know what I know now. I might have went else where to get my information, but nothing is better then getting info for a script directly from a offical site.

Brad
13 May 2006, 19:50
Thread moved to site feedback.

Logikos
13 May 2006, 19:52
Thank you Brad.

hambil
13 May 2006, 19:56
Yes, thank you. A good start on open dialog I think.

Scott MacVicar
13 May 2006, 20:15
I've read all the posts here, it did take me a few hours between other tasks and now I have to say I agree.

Things have changed a great deal in the last 4 years since I became a Jelsoft employee. Originally vBulletin.org was run with an iron fist by Chen, Bira and myself, coders were treated with a high respect by customers since PHP was still this large confusing language that no one knew. The community was also much smaller, a large percentage of the hacks were all written by a handfull of people.

Now in my opinion it seems that vbulletin.org might be a little understaffed from the modifications site and unable to implement all the suggestions that people make and those people who bash coders regardless of what they implement are completely out of order. I think a zero tollerance policy could solve that, though maybe the problem could be the way vbulletin.com sends customers here.

I'll speak to Wayne when I next see him since the majority of the proposed things would need discussion between everyone involved before they were implemented, a chat could be an appropriate starting point between Jelsoft, vBulletin.org staff and the top coders.

Maybe some coder appreciation could be shown with free t-shirts :)

Revan
13 May 2006, 20:23
Top coders? What do you mean by this? Master Coders only?
Im not trying to start something, believe me I am happy that you are willing to take this to the appropriate authorities, but I am wondering where you draw the limit on who gets to discuss that.
I feel that seperating the coders and members is a necessity, but internally seperating the coders leads to a sort of respect hierarchy where ultimately master coders feel superior and might start to look down on adv. coders and coders.

I apologise if I brought that part way out of context, Im just wondering if I could get a clarification.
Yeah, I am worried about not being in the cool club. Sue me.

hambil
13 May 2006, 20:23
Thank you Scott, and to everyone who had a hand in defusing this and opening discussion.

Logikos
13 May 2006, 20:24
Scott, I'm really happy to hear that. Not that talking to Wayne part, the T-Shirt part! Just kidding and all joking aside though. I'm really happy to see that us as a community has started to reach some of the Jelsoft staff with the situation on hand. Lets hope this issue can some how come to a positive ending.

The Geek
13 May 2006, 20:26
Thanks for the post Scott. Personally Im for bumper stickers. But then again Im in the camp that thinks a bumper sticker is a cure all (which says a bit).

Brad
13 May 2006, 20:29
I always hate to see a member leave this community, it doesn't matter if they are staff, a coder, or just your everyday admin. Many of them don't even post to say goodbye, they just silently fade away never to be heard from again. I think this is the fourth thread I've seen like this in my four years in the community, many of these years spent as a member and not as staff.

There is a lot of talk about how this site is going in the crapper, and a lot of people dwelling on things that happened in the past. Instead of dwelling on these things and fighting with one another we need to look at the bigger picture: improving vBulletin.org.

Now to improve you have to go about things in a certain way. You can't decide to 'go on strike' and expect staff members to jump because you said jump. When you do thing like that you make me feel like I'm begin bullied into doing whatever it is you want done. Even if I did try to improve things based on what has been said so far I'm at a lost for exactly what it is you want.

The correct way to go about this is to discuss things in a positive manner, in other words act like adults and realize that while you may not agree with someone, they have an opinion and a right to make it known just like you. This is not directed solely at members, or coders, it is directed at everyone here including staff members, Jelsoft employees, and Jesus Christ himself if he decides to stop by and make a post.

What we have to do is move passed all this negative thinking, so lets try to steer this thread in a direction that will benefit this site and it's users instead of causing more drama. So if you have a suggestion let me hear it by posting here, or in the site feedback forum, or send me a private message (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/private.php?do=newpm&u=1068) if you'd rather not post it in public. I will listen, I will respond, and I will do everything in my power to make the changes the membership requires.

Scott MacVicar
13 May 2006, 20:30
I have a pretty nice vBulletin polo shorts lying about, starting to get a bit worn but I'm sure I could get an extra dozen when I get my new ones.

We'd need to have two seperate groups meet with everyone, I think getting everyone together could intimidate people when it comes to speaking their mind. When I said top coders i just meant those who are active and have released a fair number of hacks and would be willing to at least have a discussion.

Logikos
13 May 2006, 20:33
What we have to do is move passed all this negative thinking, so lets try to steer this thread in a direction that will benefit this site and it's users instead of causing more drama. So if you have a suggestion let me hear it by posting here, or in the site feedback forum, or send me a private message (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/private.php?do=newpm&u=1068) if you'd rather not post it in public. I will listen, I will respond, and I will do everything in my power to make the changes the membership requires.


I'd like to start with my post here (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showpost.php?p=973834&postcount=75) & Revans here (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showpost.php?p=973841&postcount=76).

You will have to filter through alot of our text to see the suggested features.

hambil
13 May 2006, 20:35
I second LiveWire and Raven's suggestions, and I've also made a few suggestions in the past I think are worth repeating: here (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=113678) and here (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=113255).

Bubble #5
13 May 2006, 20:49
If it wasn't for the coders, I would not know what I know now.
Exactly. Which is why the following statemnet is so out of touch and detrimental toward vB:

They are not, they are just part of the community, the other 99.99% of the users on this site are its lifeblood. Not a few users who do happen to code hacks.

Apparently there are some at vB who seem to think that good coders are in a never-ending vast infinite supply. Their mindset seems to suggest that there is some invisible vast mountain of good coders just chomping at the bit to be here - there isn't. Good coders, and I mean the truly good coders, are like mentors who help the newbie coders to become good coders themselves. Without those good coders here the 'newbie coders' will be putting out a lot of sloppy code, which will eventually upset the vB customers using it, and that will eventually give this place and vB a bad reputation. Good coders here aren't "just" good coders. They secure the future of this site. A lot of you here are probably too young to remember what happened when UBB was all the rage. They disrespected their coders too, and just like here, the good coders all left, and soon afterward so did all their customers. It is said that you can do one of two things with history; you can either learn from it, or you can repeat it. I certainly hope that vB doesn't repeat what the higher-ups at UBB did. I think treating the coders here with a little more respect is a win-win situation for everyone here. First of all it keeps them here where they belong, and doesn't force them to start their own sites. Secondly when vb.org is strong, so is vB the product, at least in the paying customers eyes. Thirdly, when the coders put out good free hacks and support them here, that gives more vB customers reasons to come here, which ultimately makes the vB camper very happy. Yes this could be a win-win situation for everyone, but first everyone needs to take a deep breath and realize that compromises on both sides need to take place before any real progress can be made. Best of luck to everyone involved :)

Brad
13 May 2006, 20:53
Personally I do not see a problem with users wanting to help out by coding things for this site, I think it's a great idea and would move things a long faster then the way we do thing at this moment. Perhaps we could set up some sort of dev area that people can visit if they wish to help out, there they can submit code or make changes to existing code if they desire. The only problem with that is security issues, so it couldn't be something that was totally open to everyone.

Forum layout: There are plans to re-order the forums, but it keeps getting put off for one reason or another. I agree it's messy right now and it needs to get done.

Donations: If someone wants to donate I don't see a problem with giving them a button to do so. I know a few people already include a paypal link in their threads now.

Finding hacks: I agree there are issues with finding hacks sometimes. It's really a issue with a lot of things, the search engine tends to give you bad results and the layout we use now doesn't help. Not to mention that layout has changed over the years many times and threads have been moved around.

Giving coders more: I think we should do everything in our power to make them feel welcomed and appreciated. Coloring their username sounds fine to me, as we already give you a title anyway. However I think that is just a gimmick to be honest and won't improve much. Maybe we could pick certain modifications and have someone write a review of them and interview the author. As it stands now the only way you'll ever get on the front page is by having a hack with a lot of installs or winning hack of the month.

The modification 'system': I agree this needs to be improved and has needed it for awhile. One thread just isn't enough for most modifications now, no matter how many template edits and little additions we add to them. What I've always wanted to see was something like sourceforge here. Give the authors a place for users to report bugs to them. Keep multiple revisions of that hack, have a place to release beta versions, separate feedback posts from support posts, have an area for multiple authors to get together and work on a common goal.

Revan
13 May 2006, 21:02
Giving coders more: I think we should do everything in our power to make them feel welcomed and appreciated. Coloring their username sounds fine to me, as we already give you a title anyway. However I think that is just a gimmick to be honest and won't improve much. Maybe we could pick certain modifications and have someone write a review of them and interview the author. As it stands now the only way you'll ever get on the front page is by having a hack with a lot of installs or winning hack of the month.I agree that coloring the username isn't going to make all of this go away, but IMO it isn't a step in the wrong direction ;)

hambil
13 May 2006, 21:07
And let's not completely avoid the big elephant in the room - a commercial hack area.

Brad
13 May 2006, 21:09
A commercial hack area is Jelsoft's call. I'm sorry to say but that is out of my hands and has been for some time now, perhaps when Wayne comes along he can respond to that request for you. :)

Roms
13 May 2006, 21:10
Some posting guidelines for members asking for support to modifications is sorely needed as well. A little "Please" and "Thankyou" for all the support and work on modifications goes a long ways. Much more respect for coders is needed and needs to be pointed out to the members more than ever...

Danny.VBT
13 May 2006, 21:11
The modification 'system': I agree this needs to be improved and has needed it for awhile. One thread just isn't enough for most modifications now, no matter how many template edits and little additions we add to them. What I've always wanted to see was something like sourceforge here. Give the authors a place for users to report bugs to them. Keep multiple revisions of that hack, have a place to release beta versions, separate feedback posts from support posts, have an area for multiple authors to get together and work on a common goal.

That's definitely something that I would be interested, I'm sure alot of other coders would be as well. :up:

Paul M
13 May 2006, 21:14
Personally I do not see a problem with users wanting to help out by coding things for this site, I think it's a great idea and would move things a long faster then the way we do thing at this moment. Perhaps we could set up some sort of dev area that people can visit if they wish to help out, there they can submit code or make changes to existing code if they desire. The only problem with that is security issues, so it couldn't be something that was totally open to everyone.

Forum layout: There are plans to re-order the forums, but it keeps getting put off for one reason or another. I agree it's messy right now and it needs to get done.

Donations: If someone wants to donate I don't see a problem with giving them a button to do so. I know a few people already include a paypal link in their threads now.

Finding hacks: I agree there are issues with finding hacks sometimes. It's really a issue with a lot of things, the search engine tends to give you bad results and the layout we use now doesn't help. Not to mention that layout has changed over the years many times and threads have been moved around.

Giving coders more: I think we should do everything in our power to make them feel welcomed and appreciated. Coloring their username sounds fine to me, as we already give you a title anyway. However I think that is just a gimmick to be honest and won't improve much. Maybe we could pick certain modifications and have someone write a review of them and interview the author. As it stands now the only way you'll ever get on the front page is by having a hack with a lot of installs or winning hack of the month.

The modification 'system': I agree this needs to be improved and has needed it for awhile. One thread just isn't enough for most modifications now, no matter how many template edits and little additions we add to them. What I've always wanted to see was something like sourceforge here. Give the authors a place for users to report bugs to them. Keep multiple revisions of that hack, have a place to release beta versions, separate feedback posts from support posts, have an area for multiple authors to get together and work on a common goal.
I think you have covered a large number of recent suggestions in one sweep there, and since things cannot be changed in a day, there's a fair bit to go at. :) If anyone wants to include me in discussions then just ask, I'm here everyday when not on holiday.

Revan
13 May 2006, 21:15
There's gonna be riots for those that don't get included in the discussion :p
I know Ill start one fo sho XD

But onto a more important note: The development of the site. I agree about the security issue, but lets not forget the fact that the hack database (most current example) doesn't need to be integrated into vBulletin files to such an extent as a lot of other hacks here. If there was a SVN repository available for the hack db, and the plugins were stored as flatfiles using include(), then it would be fully possible to have a number of coders cooperate on getting it up and running faster than I drop my pants when visiting a porn site.... eh scratch that bit.
Moving on, I know that *I* would very much enjoy having it on my name that I contributed to the development of the hack db, that would have been great fun as well as getting a sense of belonging to this place. Also, the admins could go through the code and review it and question any dodgy code they don't feel belong there.
So yeah, I suggest major development projects for vBorg be assigned to a SVN/CVS repos so that we can all contribute without risk of security holes.

stonyarc
13 May 2006, 22:11
Almost all members are admins and a lot of coders are running large (even very large sites too) so we do have a clear vision on how to run sites.

Stating that we'll learn if we run our own sites isn't the right way to go. We DO know how to run large sites.

So most of the suggestions are valid and needed to improve/revive vb.org.

One of the important things vb.org should also tackle is the protection of it's code and coders against leaching (licensing?copyright?membership?)


As for members, some of them really should learn to say please and stop flaming after a minute. There are other ways. I always try to stay polite and help out if I can. The least they could do is to hold back on the insults and the pushing.

As for the site itself, a lot of us are coders. I'm sure we can help out with creating whatever code is needed.

I'm sure most of us would love to help out in creating a sourceforge or versioning system. It cannot be that hard with all the talent we have here :)

GamerJunk.net
13 May 2006, 22:33
I'm also really really sick and tired of customers coming to this site and demanding, bashing, and degrading what this site once was. Not only do the non-coder customers do it, but lately I've seen this in allot of the staff here.


Pot this is kettle. I think it's time you meet.

I understand your frustration. Rather than making a post that basically is you exploding out the door why not have come to the table with ideas and plans to make this site work a bit better. Contact the staff personally and let them know how you feel. Show them what is wrong.

The lack of updates from VB.org is annoying, I too agree there needs to be some type of order in place.

1. Require a certain number of posts to be able to request modifications.
2. Create 2 Coder Forums. One for Advanced Coders and one for Beginners.
3. Update the main site more rather than when there is a new VBulletin Security Release.
4. Rather than just "Hack Of The Month" why not give Developers prizes maybe even in a cash form to show more appreciation for them.
5. Create a module that allows Developers to release their code in a form that can be purchased. A repository that is user friendly and works. www.joomla.org look at the extensions. That is a clean way of doing it.

Hate to see you go, but thanks for the work you have provided here. I will hopefully find your work around the net if you do choose to continue coding Vbulletin mods.

The Geek
13 May 2006, 22:39
My suggestion for the first step is to get a team together for development for the hack DB system.
One that is more purpose built than the release threads here. Ideally with a mini bug tracker that will give people a place to submit bugs, get responses and see what issues are outstanding without having to trollop through 50 pages of discussion.
That alone will solve a lot of coder and user issues.

calorie
14 May 2006, 00:22
Coders are important, sure, and there appears to be a need for recognition above and beyond that currently provided. Perhaps coders could be involved in vBorg development, be able to open a big project release forum, have the ability to turn on/off a bug reporting system, etcetera.

However, let's not fail to recognize what the 'members' provide. Without 'members' trying and commenting on mods, the 'coders' on this forum may not have found/fixed mentioned bugs, improved interfaces, enhanced features, etcetera. Also, let us not forget 'designers' and graphics.

That said, and not to dismiss comments/suggestions on any side, IMHO there is a certain lack of communication that a rapid fire of suggestions is not going to fix. To wit, there are a few members that download mods only to post them on their sites. Why do staff allegedly do nothing?

The topic of pilfered mods has been brought up several times in the past, and is used here as an example. So, why do staff allegedly do nothing, or is it that you don't know what staff do, or why/not they do it? Same goes for vBorg development teams, as well as other things.

There seems to be an apparent divide, like an us/them attitude, and I propose that 'liasons' become a new part of this site. Why? IMHO this site needs a 'go between' person, or persons, who can elicit responses from vBcom and vBorg staff as to why this and that is such and so.

While I've come to realize that staff actually do listen, I don't think it's always portrayed in the best/clearest light. The point of a liason, a non-staff member, would be to step in and relay why there is, for example, this protect-your-own-mods attitude and what not.

A liason could step into a thread and say, "you know X, it might have been better to say..." and this would go for all staff, codes, designers, members, or whatever the title. A liason could, for example, ask LiveWire what change right now would affect your decision to leave.

A liason is an objective person, as objective as humanly possible, who must be answered by staff, who must be respected by staff and non-staff alike, and who can provide coherent and reasonable answers to questions, all while honoring vB com/org expectations of privacy.

IMHO, if people were more aware of certain things, there would be less of these type of threads.

Liason, what do you think?

Freesteyelz
14 May 2006, 01:01
These quotes sum it up nicely in one sweep:

Instead of dwelling on these things and fighting with one another we need to look at the bigger picture: improving vBulletin.org.

You can't decide to 'go on strike' and expect staff members to jump because you said jump. When you do thing like that you make me feel like I'm begin bullied into doing whatever it is you want done.

The correct way to go about this is to discuss things in a positive manner

I was rather curious as to why it took until post #75 (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showpost.php?p=973834&postcount=75) from the thread's poster to offer solutions. Had the solutions been offered in post #1 (along with the concerns) the calling for change could have played out much smoother. The upside: Tons of valid points; downside: the drama. There are better strategies than placing people on the defensive. :)

Chris M
14 May 2006, 01:04
Members already have a liason to the staff - amykhar :)

Chris

calorie
14 May 2006, 01:06
Great, but could amykhar use some help? :)

PS: just an FYI: didn't know amykhar was a liason until today. Hmm. ;)

smacklan
14 May 2006, 01:21
Lots of good points made from both sides. A thriving community is like a family and everyone will have disagreements from time to time, but in the end we all have a vested interest in getting along and resolving differences. Not being a coder, but just a lowly skin provider *winks at The Geek*, I don't have much to offer other than to say I have released some of my work for free, at a not so shaby expense to myself, and did so only for the satisfaction helping someone else it brings. The bottom line to me is that vBulletin is a rather successful company and would continue to be so not because of the hugh mod community, but because of the strength of the core product. This thread wouldn't even be going on did it not exist, so I personally don't feel that Jelsoft really "owes" any of us anything other than their great support and a hearty thanks for enriching them. I also think, however, that they are astute business people who will react to their customer's needs...it's just that large systems don't always move at a very fast pace. Having said all this, I appreciate the discussion and wish all involved parties the best and a Happy Mother's Day weekend (those of you who recognize the holiday ;))

Cheers!

vBulletin THEN DAYLIGHT
14 May 2006, 01:28
I must admit that when I got my lisence I was quite excited about vb.org and what will offer me. And I have been rather disapointed. The number of mods available is fantastic, I don't have a problem with that, it is the fact I have had a lot of trouble getting help and feedback on things.

I have posted several threads asking for help and feedback on various things and they have all pretty much been ignored. You try asking the same question at vb.com and they keep telling you to come back here. That tells me that this place has an obligation to offer vBulletin customers quality support with modifying their forum, something I haven't been very happy with and it doesn't make a good impression for Jelsoft.

Perhaps look into getting more dedicated support staff? You can't rely on members to be offering support as the vast majority don't know coding, hence why they come here in the first place.

Paul M
14 May 2006, 01:41
Members already have a liason to the staff - amykhar :)
I'm just a bit curious - was this meant in humour ?

Just wondering because I would not consider her a liason, even though I know she seems to have some strange status here which I've never quite understood (allowing her access to staff forums ?).

hambil
14 May 2006, 01:42
I'm just a bit curious - was this meant in humour ?

Just wondering because I would not consider her a liason, even though I know she seems to have some strange status here which I've never quite understood (allowing her access to staff forums ?).
If we're supposed to be talking to amy so she can talk to the staff on our behalf, it would be nice to know that :)

Boofo
14 May 2006, 01:43
No, sir, Chris was serious and accurate. ;)

Freesteyelz
14 May 2006, 01:46
You try asking the same question at vb.com and they keep telling you to come back here. That tells me that this place has an obligation to offer vBulletin customers quality support with modifying their forum, something I haven't been very happy with and it doesn't make a good impression for Jelsoft.


The vB.com staff do not tell customers that they'll find the answers if they come to vB.org. By linking to vB.org they're giving vB customers an option to explore modding routes.

From what I understand, vB.com staff are employees of Jelsoft while vB.org consists of volunteers. Jelsoft's obligation is to support the core product while vB.org's purpose is to extend it. The protocol for the two are different.

cinq
14 May 2006, 01:51
And to think I was alone with these sentiments when I decided to throw in the towel here at vb.org sometime back, albeit without a farewell thread.

I personally get better respect and am more valued when I get paid for my work, so that's what I am doing now.

In any case, perhaps change is on the horizon. If only for the sake of the community at large.

jilly
14 May 2006, 01:59
I completely agree with going commercial. I think that good well-tested hacks are worth paying for.

I've paid quite a few people here for the hacks they've done, or bought their branding-free option as a way to show my thanks - I totally appreciate the hard work the coders here do, and I believe there is nothing wrong with asking for some compensation for the code.

And in fact, I pay for the branding-free option, but still leave the branding in, because I want to promote that hack and it's creator to any other vb person who may come by my site, and who might see it and be interested.

I deeply appreciate all the coders here ((HUGS))

Tony G
14 May 2006, 02:54
So for Coders to get the "recognition" they want, money will fix the job? That ain't recognition at all.

poolking - On your post on page 3, I never said being nasty was professional. I said being nice wasn't the only form of professionalism there is, and then I said replying to suggestions made, good and bad, is professional as well instead of ignoring them.

And Brad is right. It's negative posts, negative thinking, and blaming every single problem on the staff that is ruining the atmosphere on the forum. If people want this forum to improve, I think a lot of people need to change their attitudes around here - to stop being so critisizing of everything staff post, to support staff decisions as well as critisise them in a non-abusive way, to accept when decisions are rejected, and so on. If the community does this, vB.org will become a lot of a better place.

vBulletin THEN DAYLIGHT - Support here is never guarenteed. There are so many questions asked here every day its impossible for all to be answered. As well as that, I'd say.. 60 or 70% never include enough or the right information for someone to support. Once again, another thing that can't be completly blamed on Jelsoft or the volunteering staff.

Roms
14 May 2006, 03:04
Support here is never guarenteed. There are so many questions asked here every day its impossible for all to be answered. As well as that, I'd say.. 60 or 70% never include enough or the right information for someone to support. Once again, another thing that can't be completly blamed on Jelsoft or the volunteering staff.

I'm sure there are many others willing to volunteer thier time, perhaps the staff should make look into adding a few more people. ;)

Tony G
14 May 2006, 03:06
Members don't need to be moderators to support... if anything, its people who have the dedication to support without needing a status to do it that would be looked highly upon for future moderators. ;)

Tralala
14 May 2006, 03:28
I think the wink (;)) has become an annoying and overused emoticon in this thread.

For some reason, coming after some of these posts, it seems very condescending to me.

Tony G
14 May 2006, 04:05
...

Right. Anyway, my wink doesn't mean what I said isn't true. It's true. I'm suprised so many members want comments like that to give them hope. Isn't there a bit more to contributing here besides the hope you'll be a mod one day? There's always got to be that want to help people in your mind. With enough people with that attitude the support here would improve. :)

Erwin
14 May 2006, 04:11
I think people need to understand one thing - staff here at vB.org are ALL volunteers (with the exception of Wayne and Zachery who are both official Jelsoft employees). The rest of us, including Brad, Xenon and myself, are volunteers - we do not get paid. The turn-around and support at vB.com is better because the staff there are PAID staff - it's their job.

vB.org is my hobby - it's not my job - neither is it the job of any of the mods here who do this in their own time after their studies, or their day jobs.

Scott is right in saying that this site is big enough to have paid staff to run it like vB.com. More needs to be invested into this site - Marco and others who are coding the Hack Database all have their own lives to live - you cannot expect them to quit university and code the hack databse 24 hours a day for the benefit of people and not get paid for it. That makes sense right?

I would like the coders here not to take their frustrations out on the staff here - they are coders like you too, and they don't get paid for all they do in the background, so have a bit of understanding.

There are many things that are out of vB.org staff hands - we try our best, but things like a paid directory is something we have brought up with Jelsoft again and again and it's not up to us to make the final decision.

If you expect professional staff here at vB.org, then tell Jelsoft to hire professional people. :) Staff here are just enthusiasts of vB, just like you. We are no better, we are no worse.

Of course, all of us want to see this site improve, so let's remain constructive in this thread, and instead of looking at problems, let's look at possible solutions.

Logikos
14 May 2006, 04:13
The issues is not about giving coders moderating privileges. I think someone meantioned this once. The issue is not about giving coders money either. As soon as the thread starts to take a positive direction, it's gets thrown out of context. (not directed towards Erwin) I've posted my suggestions, and are about to post one last final suggestion and hope for the best.

I'll post that in awhile, once I'm done typing it.

Zachery
14 May 2006, 04:23
I think people need to understand one thing - staff here at vB.org are ALL volunteers (with the exception of Wayne and Zachery who are both official Jelsoft employees). The rest of us, including Brad, Xenon and myself, are volunteers - we do not get paid. The turn-around and support at vB.com is better because the staff there are PAID staff - it's their job.

vB.org is my hobby - it's not my job - neither is it the job of any of the mods here who do this in their own time after their studies, or their day jobs.

Scott is right in saying that this site is big enough to have paid staff to run it like vB.com. More needs to be invested into this site - Marco and others who are coding the Hack Database all have their own lives to live - you cannot expect them to quit university and code the hack databse 24 hours a day for the benefit of people and not get paid for it. That makes sense right?

I would like the coders here not to take their frustrations out on the staff here - they are coders like you too, and they don't get paid for all they do in the background, so have a bit of understanding.

There are many things that are out of vB.org staff hands - we try our best, but things like a paid directory is something we have brought up with Jelsoft again and again and it's not up to us to make the final decision.

If you expect professional staff here at vB.org, then tell Jelsoft to hire professional people. :) Staff here are just enthusiasts of vB, just like you. We are no better, we are no worse.

Of course, all of us want to see this site improve, so let's remain constructive in this thread, and instead of looking at problems, let's look at possible solutions.
I'd just like to point out again, for the record, I'm not re-embursed for any time spent here.

Roms
14 May 2006, 04:36
...

Right. Anyway, my wink doesn't mean what I said isn't true. It's true. I'm suprised so many members want comments like that to give them hope. Isn't there a bit more to contributing here besides the hope you'll be a mod one day? There's always got to be that want to help people in your mind. With enough people with that attitude the support here would improve. :)

I realize all members need to give a much support at possible. You know as well as I do that the staff here has a life away from the board (we've had this discussion in private). The staff is still very thin and needs to either devote more time or expand a bit.

Support I think that 'most' coders/designers try to devote as much time to support as possible, I find it a matter of pride since it's something I've released. It does get tough when the members never return a thank you or show appreciation. :(

As far as me using the 'wink' in my post to Tony, I wasn't as patient as I should have been in the past to Tony so I'm making an effort to show him I do appreciate him. ;) okay... :)

I think people need to understand one thing - staff here at vB.org are ALL volunteers (with the exception of Wayne and Zachery who are both official Jelsoft employees). The rest of us, including Brad, Xenon and myself, are volunteers - we do not get paid. The turn-around and support at vB.com is better because the staff there are PAID staff - it's their job.

I guess that's why Zachery feels everyone is expendable and can be abusive to the members (I can provide posts if needed. ie: example (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showpost.php?p=954665&postcount=31))..

Shaliza
14 May 2006, 05:10
Great coders like LiveWire, PaulM, and The Geek (just to name a few)

It could just be me, but after you said that, it sounded like some people were bitter that they didn't get mentioned even though you said you were naming a few.

I purchased vBulletin last month, but had been coming here since before then because I decided to look for different hacks in advanced. Those mentioned [& some others] have done some really good ones. Too bad it came to this. Someone made a good point in asking what would happen if most of the real good coders left should this continue.

Quick question for those coders: are you starting up a different forum?

Smiry Kin's
14 May 2006, 05:24
main reason i brought a lisense was to get all the cool hacks etc ppl make on here.. :( anyone can use vbulletin.. :(.. some people like me, are still learning the basics.. :(

MThornback
14 May 2006, 05:33
I want to weigh in on this...but because compared to alot of the heavy weights in here i'm a VB newbie....I am a user as someone called it earlier in the thread...but not for the reason that you implied, and I take exception to being told i'm using people...I leech off peoples work for understanding of the software, php and how to make them work for me to improve my site...I ALWAYS pay credit where credit is due, and I respect the blood sweat and tears of every coder or designer thats part of this community. Reviewing their code has taught me a thing or three, and while i'm still mediocre...I get a bit better all the time...and I have THIS site to thank for it....and by this site I MEAN people like Livewire, Paul M, TheGeek and ZeroTolerence who release complex hacks (and simple ones) that run the gambit for the learning curve for someone like me to learn from.

A few general comments to groups from the newbie:

VB.org staff:
We enjoy this site, cause we keep comming back...but the verbal abuse thats gone on for neigh on 9 pages...has to stop...hambil said it best...we're all admins here....don't insult peoples abilities because of age-old grudges that have no bearing on an experienced member of this community expressing their frustration. He wasn't happy...he told us all why...he didn't say anything that threads all over the site can tell you anyway....community is lacking, and the biggest reason I see is the freedom of speech and the introspection that allows a community TO grow and to move in the direction they naturally progress is being stiffled by staff taking out private problems with individuals publically, and by stiffling ideas...

Disgruntled Coders/Designers of all degrees AND the staff too:
This community if nothing else is an excellent sounding board for ideas and for testing them and watching them come to life. When we lose ANY of you its a blow, because no matter how many installs you have...your work still has value to atleast 1 other person...so its worth SOMETHING....even if you never win HOTM or get a shiny title....when we lose someone who has released ALOT of work we lose the work, but we ALSO lose the resource for questions and help....which to me ends up being the biggest waste...because it creates a break in the cycle of learning....if no one learns from ghosts....



My guess is that no matter how many people get frustrated the community will survive....over time, people will be replaced and the newbie will rise to challenge the master coders of today....problem being that not only is the road harder to travel for the newbie, but the software suffers from the current master coders and designers tightening ranks and not teaching the tricks of the trade....

Thats how I see things....both sides have to actually LISTEN to each other instead of resorting to public pissing contests and bullshit matches....talk TO each other instead of AT each other and both sides might see progress until then your filling the post table for nothing....

my 0.02.

Dean C
14 May 2006, 06:09
Maybe you should reconsider and explain why I dislike you and came down on you like a ton of bricks Ken, before you namedrop.

Zachery
14 May 2006, 07:53
I would like to take a moment and sit down and address the facts that people seem to think I feel that everyone and anyone is expendable. This is not what I mean when people come and people go. I am referring to the natural order of life and death. People are born and people die, there is nothing that we can currently do to prevent this from happening. While it is sad when someone dies, dwelling on the issue does not let us move onto the future. Sure, there are good people who leave communities or pass on in real life. However to say that no one could ever do as good as a job as them is not true. When a coder leaves vBulletin.org it is a sad occasion, but it is not the end of life as we know it and we still strive on. Over the years vBulletin.org has lost coders in a number of ways, be it through death, lack of want to keep participating, or real life, but the community did not stop growing, it keep growing. Why? Because thatís what happens in life, new things come and change the way we think and old things pass on. I do not think any life or person at this site is expendable, but I understand the fact that one day they will not be with us any longer and there is not much I can do about it in some respects. With this in mind it is why I say one person, or a small group of people are not the specific life blood of the site, the users who will be here tomorrow, the next day, and the new users who will join us are.

Iíd like to make a few other points for anyone who may have missed a post I made. I am _not_ a paid staff member here in any respect, but I am part of the Jelsoft staff as per my specific duties to vBulletin.com in terms of support.

Now, if I have offended you, again I am sorry as that was not my point. If youíd like to chat with me, either about things I said here, or just to get to know me better in general, feel free to send me a pm or talk to me in #vborg when Iím around.

Floris
14 May 2006, 08:15
Hello again everybody,

This thread took an interesting turn over night and I would like to say I have a few ideas and comments I'd like to share with the vBcom staff as well as with the vBorg staff in regards to 'how can we improve vborg'.

Before I discuss them even in public I will try to get a chat going this upcoming wednesday when the support staff from vBcom has a meeting planned. Unless they are otherwise occupied at least Colin, Zachery, Wayne and Steve will be there. This should indirectly also help as Zachery and Colin have insight on vBorg and could explain any questions I might have. Anyway, I will see what they think of my comments and ideas and request Wayne and Steve to open dialogue with the vBorg staff in a follow up meeting where the vBorg staff can up some proposals.

I am sure that in private people are discussing matters, and also in any potential meeting, hopefully people understand that the vBcom staff is not fully involved with the vBorg community and that we are redirecting users from vBcom who want to expand their forum software beyond the defaults which vBcom can't provide support for. And that the vBorg staff is here to manage the community to keep things running smoothly and that the vBorg staff is here on a volenteer basis and have come a long way in the last few years since Wayne got involved to help smaller the gap between vBorg/vBcom and their communities.

Please allow the staff from both sites to get up to date on the situation and discuss the matters at hand and come to solutions that is a compromise for everybody who wants to enjoy the vBorg community. These discussions and these potential solutions don't come over one night of ice, so don't expect that either.

What I personally recommend is to get vBcom staff involved to help discuss solutions and help make recommendations to the staff from vBcom that should make the final (big) decisions (like the business manager or CEO), if there are any to make. And I also personally recommend that perhaps a status update on these matters could be semi-scheduled in about X weeks to keep the vBorg community in the loop (but of course that is up to the vBorg staff).

For now, and to stay on topic: LiveWire, I have come to know you on vBorg through your comments, your actions on the site, your contributions and recently through the #vBorg chat channel on our vb chat network where you also have your private chat channel. It is a shame to find out that you have lost your motivation to continue on this web site and I wish you the best of luck with your other projects. And of course, as a vB customer you're always welcome on vBorg.

And to everybody else who shares LWs oppinion I thank you for your feedback and comments they help the vBorg staff and also the vBcom staff to get a better understanding how the community experiences the vBorg web site. I can tell you that we know that the vBorg staff is trying their best and tries to be there for everybody; and I think we also all know it is not easy to run a (big) community and that every community has their ups and downs.

However, I do read some comments here and there that are on the edge of breaking forum rules (hard to avoid sometimes in convs like these) but please rethink before posting because name calling or personally attacking someone doesn't add much to getting to a solution.

Anyhoo-summery
I hardly post on this site for my own reasons but I do read these type of threads and I usually choose not to reply. I said yesterday that I would contact some vBcom staff and a few have already read this thread and Marco has also addressed this to the vBcom staff and he will take it from there. This wednesday I will address this thread and others in our meeting and recommend to start a chat with the vBorg staff and I request the community to allow the staffs to have some time in getting things started and wait for a status update in X weeks (but that's up to the vBorg staff I think).

Dean C
14 May 2006, 08:27
Members already have a liason to the staff - amykhar :)

Chris

The only reason I know this is because I was staff here when she was given this honorary role. No-where has it been announced in public, and 99% of community members here don't know her role. She certainly doesn't advertise her role, and whilst I like Amy and her bluntness (and agree with her nine times out of ten), I don't think that her views on non-coders make her suited to bridging a gap between the staff and the members. If anything, it's doing the exact opposite, and alienating the community.

And on a more general note, how many more of these threads is it going to take to make the current staff here realise that it's not what you care or think that matters, it's the members here want that does :)

Revan
14 May 2006, 09:32
Over the years vBulletin.org has lost coders in a number of ways, be it through death, lack of want to keep participating, or real life, but the community did not stop growing, it keep growing.See, since you think that all the people that download the hacks without giving anything back is the backbone of the community, you would be right.
If there was some form of a record of how many coders there were "back in the day" (before my time), matched up against now, I think you would find there would be less now. I don't call that growth. This site lives only because of people contributing code. You could have six billion people coming in here and asking questions, requesting mods or try to learn how to code their own for their own personal sites, but without those that actually releases mods, this community would die.
You seem to fail to realise this.

Tony G
14 May 2006, 10:57
The issues is not about giving coders moderating privileges. I think someone meantioned this once. The issue is not about giving coders money either. As soon as the thread starts to take a positive direction, it's gets thrown out of context. (not directed towards Erwin) I've posted my suggestions, and are about to post one last final suggestion and hope for the best.


It shouldn't be suprising that people might be coding for the status or the money. They want something in return. It's nice to have pure intentions but not everyone has them.


Support I think that 'most' coders/designers try to devote as much time to support as possible, I find it a matter of pride since it's something I've released. It does get tough when the members never return a thank you or show appreciation.


I understand that. I think the coder titles here were a start on trying to get coders and designers recognition for work released. Although, it looks like people aren't *completly* satisfied. But at least the staff did act on this issue. I think we're looking into alternative ways now.

TeaTree
14 May 2006, 11:38
I think people need to understand one thing - staff here at vB.org are ALL volunteers (with the exception of Wayne and Zachery who are both official Jelsoft employees). The rest of us, including Brad, Xenon and myself, are volunteers - we do not get paid. The turn-around and support at vB.com is better because the staff there are PAID staff - it's their job.

vB.org is my hobby - it's not my job - neither is it the job of any of the mods here who do this in their own time after their studies, or their day jobs.

Scott is right in saying that this site is big enough to have paid staff to run it like vB.com. More needs to be invested into this site - Marco and others who are coding the Hack Database all have their own lives to live - you cannot expect them to quit university and code the hack databse 24 hours a day for the benefit of people and not get paid for it. That makes sense right?

I would like the coders here not to take their frustrations out on the staff here - they are coders like you too, and they don't get paid for all they do in the background, so have a bit of understanding.

There are many things that are out of vB.org staff hands - we try our best, but things like a paid directory is something we have brought up with Jelsoft again and again and it's not up to us to make the final decision.

If you expect professional staff here at vB.org, then tell Jelsoft to hire professional people. :) Staff here are just enthusiasts of vB, just like you. We are no better, we are no worse.

Of course, all of us want to see this site improve, so let's remain constructive in this thread, and instead of looking at problems, let's look at possible solutions.

That is a brilliant point

stinger2
14 May 2006, 12:08
since this thread turned to constructive one....i feel happy...but can i ask every one NOT to call user's(customers)..as leechers.........it would be the first producet in the world where customers are called so...

Revan
14 May 2006, 12:52
I apologise if I offended someone with the usage of that term. I swear I didn't mean any offense. I merely found it a shorter term than putting "users that do not contribute to the community in way of hacks" in every other sentence :)

hambil
14 May 2006, 13:31
It shouldn't be suprising that people might be coding for the status or the money. They want something in return. It's nice to have pure intentions but not everyone has them.
The desire to eat is not a pure intention? Give me a break.

stinger2
14 May 2006, 13:53
I apologise if I offended someone with the usage of that term. I swear I didn't mean any offense. I merely found it a shorter term than putting "users that do not contribute to the community in way of hacks" in every other sentence :)

thank you sir ......for this nice attitude.....
again contribution can also be giving feedback, reporting bugs, trying the hacks, giving suggestions for good hacks....

its one circle that should not break....
product+support+customers+feedback+coders====> new product and so on

Thanatos
14 May 2006, 14:04
You know...its all really kinda funny.

I'm one of those 99% here. I'm a nobody when it comes to coding. I bought books, read through them, but just don't 'get it'. I can hack around with code a bit to make it work with my forums or so I can figure out where stuff is broken so I can come back here and search for the problem or plead for help in fixing it.

All of you people who code just amaze me. I'm not a dumb fellow, I set up advanced networks, configure routers and firewalls, set up custom routing solutions for load balancing, build networks from the computers up...but I simlpy lack that creative spark that lets me code something cool. I come here and read the hacks that people come up with and post and am just amazed. I don't use them all, but I use like 4 pages worth of y'alls codes on my forums.

Now, that being said, as a generalization, all of us who can't code here have gotten a bit of the cold shoulder before and become frustrated over it. Being told to go learn coding for yourself just isn't helpful (and yeah, I've been told that before, especially in the older days). I'm very appreciative of some of the ways this foum has changed, where its become easier to get "plugins" for our forums and how its become modular so if something breaks, we can troubleshoot easier by turning all the plugins off and then on one at a time to figure out which two don't play nice. I've noticed as well, that because of this, stuff has gotten fixed or made more compatible more quickly and I see fewer of the posts where people are told to go figure it out themselves.

I think that sometimes, all you people forget what its like to be on the bottom of the barrel and reliant on someone elses talents. Yes, we paid for a commercial product -- but alot of us paid because we came here and saw YOU guys and gals and your code releases.

I've paid for some people to help me fix stuff before and paid for a code addon or two, but I'd just move away to a free product if everyone started charging for their hacks -- there are too many nice and competitive alternatives these days in the free side, then to have to put up with everyone getting upset and taking their toys and going home. You coders make vbulletin worth the money and when you leave the community, you not only hurt yourselves (because fewer people will end up supporting paid hacks in the long run), but you hurt others in the long run -- the ones at the mercy of your missing or now commercialized talent (and that goes for anyone who releases cool code, not just the master coders or the coding staff).

And for the record, I have helped a bit here and there when I could, but its rare that I can, I'm not 100% a leech :) just mostly one. But I appreciate all of you guys. I also know that the people here have their hands ultimately tied down by the people over at vb.com and they aren't the most receptive to change and new ideas....but I've been here a long time, like alot of you and I have seen alot of changes...I have seen them eventually concede and change a few things here.

So, from someone not inbroiled in the politics around here, here's my 2 coppers worth. Stop threating to take your ball away and go home...its not an us vs them, be that coders vs non-coders, staff vs members or anything else...if there is going to be improvment here, the staff and the lead members of the community all need to put aside differences and see if things can be worked out and improved, and if someone's hands are tied, stick it on the table for review in 6 months...Everyone's just too passionate about all of this and all that does is making working out dreary details difficult.

Well, thanks for listening.

EricaJoy
14 May 2006, 15:23
+1 to everything in Thanatos' post.

I love the coders here. THEY are the reason I keep coming back to vb.org, not that you all aren't charming but I don't stay around for the sparkling conversation.

Danecookie
14 May 2006, 16:00
oh ca'mon '.'

things are not in order here i guess.

Logikos
14 May 2006, 16:20
Maybe you should reconsider and explain why I dislike you and came down on you like a ton of bricks Ken, before you namedrop.
Dean, you dislike me because I ripped off a style years ago and took it down. You tried everything in your power to get me banned. Even Jelsoft denied your request to ban me. The funny thing about you is, you tried to get me banned over ripping a style that had nothing to do with vBulletin. It was a designing site and Jelsoft saw that it had nothing to do with them. I had my licenses, and I didn't break any of the Jelsoft TOS. It's sad that you still have this personal vendetta agaist me, but the best thing vBulletin.org did was demote you. I think alot of thst staff here agree to, but I can't speak for all of them. Just some of them that I've spoken to. ;)

@Floris
Thank you for your comments and letting us know what is going on. I think that main problem with this community is that Jelsoft doesn't get invloved in it. I belive that the 'gap' between the two communities could be even smaller if Jelsoft got invloved in the vBOrg community somehow.

I'm going to post the idea I have in mind that could help bring back the modivation coders once had in the coders forum, when I get back home.

jilly
14 May 2006, 16:22
Just for the record, i wish i could code. I'm like Thanatos. I tried, and just can't get it. If I could, and could envision hacks, I'd make some and release them when I had time. But I can't. My talents lie in other places. So I click install, I appreciate, I try to remember to always say thank you, and if people want to sell me a branding free option I buy it.

So I'm a 'user' here, and that's all I can be.

Livewire said:
The community here gives nothing back to the people who spend hours beyond hours coding something that will never make them a dime.

What does this mean? Are you talking about people like me, who use the hacks and install them? Those of us who just can't code? Are we the 'community' who is giving nothign back?
What else do you want me to do? I click install, I say thank you, I pay when I can or it's suggested. There's nothing else I am supposed to do, or CAN do, as far as I can see. Am I misunderstanding this comment? What kind of 'give back' do you want from us 'users' in the 'community'?
I just don't understand...

Dean C
14 May 2006, 16:40
Dean, you dislike me because I ripped off a style years ago and took it down. You tried everything in your power to get me banned. Even Jelsoft denied your request to ban me. The funny thing about you is, you tried to get me banned over ripping a style that had nothing to do with vBulletin. It was a designing site and Jelsoft saw that it had nothing to do with them. I had my licenses, and I didn't break any of the Jelsoft TOS. It's sad that you still have this personal vendetta agaist me, but the best thing vBulletin.org did was demote you. I think alot of thst staff here agree to, but I can't speak for all of them. Just some of them that I've spoken to. ;)

I don't even know where to begin in breaking down what you just said. But again you're speaking as if you know staff procedures, and I'm not in any position to divulge them. But I digress, it was illegal what you did and wrong, and I hold no personal vendetta against you at this time.

Paul M
14 May 2006, 16:47
Dean/Livewire, please move on from old differences. :)

Jilly, I don't think Livewire means you personally in his posts :)

Many members hear do thank coders, either by clicking 'install' or by posting a note in the hacks. I could show you threads full of them - but there are also many who do not - they come, they take, they leave - or worse, they come, they take, they moan it's not quite what they want, or they can't follow (simple) instructions. Those are the people who spoil it, and make you wonder if it was worth it - and they seem to be growing in number.

On a totally different subject - a thing that bugs me sometimes is the secrecy and stuff that is sometimes fed to us. When a suggestion is made, or a question is asked - it is refused or fobbed off with the most obviously bullshit reasons. People can see through these and get annoyed / heated.

jilly
14 May 2006, 17:01
but there are also many who do not - they come, they take, they leave - or worse, they come, they take, they moan it's not quite what they want, or they can't follow (simple) instructions. Those are the people who spoil it, and make you wonder if it was worth it - and they seem to be growing in number.


Hmmm...
Maybe there could be a way to change it, so you can't get to the files to download UNTIL you click install or do something else that indicates you have or are going to install it. And make no 'uninstall' button available, so people can't maliciously come back and click 'uninstall' just to be mean. There could be a way to remove it from your list of installed hacks in your user cp, but no way to publicly 'diss' the hack by clicking uninstall.

It's already good that the hack authors can see who has clicked install. Maybe there is a way to make it so a user can't post in a hack's thread, unless he has clicked the install button or somehow been 'verified' as having installed it.

Maybe they could also start a policy of if a person is moaning or complaining in a support for a hack thread, or being rude or ungrateful, that their post gets deleted (lol). Then they can rephrase what they said, or figure it out themselves :)

hotwheels
14 May 2006, 17:02
Well i guess i will put in my .02 at this point........That last post that livewire posted is my biggest concern, Post is here (Post is here) ........I have only been messing around with php coding for a short while and it has moved in leaps and bound's in the last year. It is amazing what can be done now with this code to make a website owner's site something enjoyable to his/her user's.
One thing i have noticed though is, anytime someone tries to help improve a code, or help update a code.....People come out of the woodwork to be sure and let the person know that they in No way, had the right to improve the code, or should they take any credit for helping with the rewritting of the code. If you look back over the last few months, it seem's that alot of the younger up and coming coder's who try to show the community something kewl they figured out could be done to better another code, the bashing begins.....I try to be positive about the situation and give kudo's to the person for their attempt at learning php and giving back to the community and whether i am right or wrong, i feel it take's everyone to use, improve, comment, find bug's, etc..in coding.
I can only speak for me, but i havent' offered any code back to the community for this reason. At first i was excited to see a program i was messing with work and work nicely at that. But after seeing little comment's from people about stealing code or you shouldn't be messing with that code, etc......I backed off on helping improve the hack for the community.....I will even share the hack i was working with, and even though the owner of the code said we could try to keep it functioning, my fear of being bashed around here kept me from sharing it with others.
Back in january of 06 when alot of us moved from 3.0 to 3.5, we found alot of the mods we were using, no longer functioned. One of my first attempt's at helping was to tackle the timeslip database program My attempt (My attempt) , which i started to try to release bit's and piece's of the mod's i had made to the coding. Shortly thereafter, i recieved a couple pm's telling me i could not release another's code without his permission. With out wanting to get into the he said she said, i backed off and removed my zip from the site. The person's that emailed me, without looking fully into the author's post where he clearly stated that it was okay to start trying to modify his code, since he was no longer going to support it. I personally even recieved help from several other coder's to help expidite the hack's progress and publish to the user's of vbulletin.org......but with my lack of understanding all of the rule's that are within this site, this is what i had to do remove code (remove code) ........which in my personal opinion was a shame. It left me feeling that coding could only be done by certain people, and that i shouldn't be offering up my attempt's to help improve what are already great hacks.

I guess instead of me rambling on, i just want the coder's that are currently here to know that i for one appreciatet them and i am sorry that people continue to bash and criticize your work. I for one, with my limited knowledge, have tried to give back and help take some of the wieght off your shoulders. I hope this entire issue can be addressed in a positive way. Right now, it seem's we are still headed down a negative road.....and hopefully vbulletin.org can come up with some time to start adding area's and suggestion's to and within the site..........


Doug (hotwheels)

Mark.B
14 May 2006, 21:25
I think you've got to look at what the users' attitude to coders is. Some are rude I agree, but that's part and parcel of any forum sadly.

However, there are many, many of us who religiously click the install buttons, search the threads for answers before posting, thank the coders etc etc.

Personally I rarely have to post in hack threads, as by the time I come to install it, any question I might have is already answered.

Freesteyelz
15 May 2006, 00:14
Nice post, Thanatos (#141 (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showpost.php?p=974505&postcount=141)). :)

Erwin
15 May 2006, 01:06
Administration and Jelsoft are aware of the issues raised here which are multiple and includes (as a summary):

1. Coders not feeling appreciated for the work they put into the site.
2. Non-coders feel that their questions are unanswered by staff or coders.
3. Members feel that vB.org staff do not listen to them and take them for granted.
4. Personality differences between certain members, and between certain staff and members (and dare I say, between staff from vB.org and vB.com)
5. Promised changes have not come to pass as yet.

I want to point out that the above things are recurrent things on this site, and I have to say, have always exist to a certain extent since I've been a member here. At different times, they get raised and a long thread like this comes about.

This is not to say these are not real problems that need to be dealt with. What I want to say is that so far people have listed problems, but solutions have been few and far between. I would like members to start coming up with possible solutions so that we can move forward.

Kihon Kata
15 May 2006, 01:17
Personally happened to me when I pmed each staff member about one that I felt needed addressing. Received back on reply from Boofo. Was helpful, but the rest fell on deaf ears :/


3. Members feel that vB.org staff do not listen to them

Ohiosweetheart
15 May 2006, 01:33
I don't think that coders should be permitted to release unsupported modifications/hacks.
*ducks and runs*

When a coder releases a hack and then doesn't support it, then there are bugs or simple questions that need answering and the author isn't around to do so, it leads to frustration and anger, and makes that hack author look bad. Yes sometimes it IS something as simple as the user not reading the instructions correctly......... sometimes it's not.

I, for one, appreciate every single coder here. And for every hack I've used and presently use, I've let the author know of my appreciation. As a forum owner and admin, I am learning, slowly, what to look for, what makes what work, how to switch and change things around, etc. But I am also intelligent enough to know that my talents are in other areas and to put it simply... a coder, I ain't.
As for the question of hacks and commercializing them, etc.... are they worth the money? You bet. Would I spent my money on a good hack? You bet........ IF I had the money to spend. Fact is, many of us forum owners spent everything we had for the vB license and simply cannot afford to pay for hacks as well. One of the major reasons I chose vB over IBP was the modifications available.
So if many of these coders go commercial, then my reason for staying with vB is gone, because I simply can't afford to pay for them, and I'm willing to bet that 50% of vB users are in my boat. And no, I'm not saying, necessarily, that we'd leave vB for IBP, I'm simply saying that we wouldn't be able to further modify our vB.

0ptima
15 May 2006, 01:48
Promised changes have not come to pass as yet.


I would like members to start coming up with possible solutions so that we can move forward.

My beef with Jelsoft is that they move way to slow with VB and it seems like the same thing is happening here with the hack DB. VB still has an edge over every other forum, but for how long? Jelsoft needs to speed up the development cycle and they need people to do this. There is great talent at VB.org, so why dont they start hiring some coders to help speed up the development on VB and on VB.org ?

Here is a great thread on VBs slow development cycle
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=178350

Boofo
15 May 2006, 02:15
My beef with Jelsoft is that they move way to slow with VB and it seems like the same thing is happening here with the hack DB. VB still has an edge over every other forum, but for how long? Jelsoft needs to speed up the development cycle and they need people to do this. There is great talent at VB.org, so why dont they start hiring some coders to help speed up the development on VB and on VB.org ?

Here is a great thread on VBs slow development cycle
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=178350

You changed your post before I could quote it. ;)

As for subscriptions, once you start doing that then the members have more reasons for being upset and demanding things and to me that takes all the fun and enjoyment out of putting a site up in the first place. ;)

0ptima
15 May 2006, 02:19
You changed your post before I could quote it. ;)

As for subscriptions, once you start doing that then the members have more reasons for being upset and demanding things and to me that takes all the fun and enjoyment out of putting a site up in the first place. ;)

BOOFO, I posted a reply to Ohiosweetheart and the post was auto merged with my last one. I wanted to suggested to her that she uses VBs payment gateway to sell premium subscriptions.

Paul M
15 May 2006, 02:29
1. Coders not feeling appreciated for the work they put into the site.
2. Non-coders feel that their questions are unanswered by staff or coders.
3. Members feel that vB.org staff do not listen to them and take them for granted.
4. Personality differences between certain members, and between certain staff and members (and dare I say, between staff from vB.org and vB.com)
5. Promised changes have not come to pass as yet.


...... but solutions have been few and far between. I would like members to start coming up with possible solutions so that we can move forward.I would also like Staff to come up with possible solutions ;)

If only it were as easy as a few simple solutions, but a few things about each of the above.

1. A hard one, personally I have no requirement for financial reward unless the amounts are more than vb.org would ever be likely to pay - winning something like a HOTM would mean more to me than $50. How about features on well known coders - I see another forum does regular inteviews with staff members, but no one ever does it for coders - 15 minutes of fame can do wonders towards making a person feel appreciated.

2. I'm not really sure how you can do anything about that as far as coders go - but staff should make an effort to answer questions, and if they are site related questions or suggestions - not avoid them with vague non commital answers - the hacks database being a prime example, stop fobbing people off with "it's coming soon, people have lives" - explain it's delayed for three/whatever months and exactly why - people hate bullshit answers.

3. See part 2 above, lack of answers is what makes people think no one is listening. Staff should possibly think more before posting, and digging themselves into a hole they can't get out of (and yes, members as well). I also think the way staff are chosen should be looked at - there seems to be zero member involvement - the last two moderators just appeared out of the blue. No warning, no involvement, nothing. This immediate gets people thinking of "jobs for the boys" - xxxxxxx is now a mod because he's Brad's mate (that's just an example Brad :)) Also - what are peoples specific roles on the site - no one really knows (for example, we suddenly get told in this thread that Amy is a 'member liason' - that's certainly news to me, and everyone else I would imagine - and again - no member involvement in the choice).

4. They will always happen, the difference is that Staff should try and be more professional about it and perhaps avoid the posts of people that they clash with (and I guess that would work for members as well).

5. As already covered in point 2 - keep people informed of delays and the reasons, members can be quite understanding when things are properly explained. Also, Brad did cover an idea in a post several pages back - basically more member involvement in projects for the site.

Well that's my random collection of thoughts - no doubt some will agree, others will disagree, but at least I tried. Sorry if it seems slightly biased towards what staff should do - but that's just the way it turned out - after all they are in the best position to make changes. :)

Boofo
15 May 2006, 02:34
BOOFO, I posted a reply to Ohiosweetheart and the post was auto merged with my last one. I wanted to suggested to her that she uses VBs payment gateway to sell premium subscriptions.

Ouch! No need to scream my name. ;)

Tony G
15 May 2006, 02:35
Regarding the hack DB, those were the only answers we could give because we didn't exactly know any more about its status of completion at times when members asked about it. But I do like your coder interview idea. Thank you for these suggestions Paul.

Kihon Kata
15 May 2006, 02:39
OT: kinda lol

Can we restore the vb.org database back to May 10th? please? That way, JumpD's threads would still be there, and this thread is non-existant. :(

I love this site and hate to see all of this.

Tralala
15 May 2006, 02:39
I'd like to know which mod deleted (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=115579) all of JumpD's hack threads 12 hours (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?p=975168#post975168) after the attachments were removed, and why.

Then I'll be able to offer up at least one solution to better the vb.org community: Get rid of that mod.



Oh, and one more solution: Undelete the threads. They were a great resource that helped us all, and will continue to do so in the future. I can't say the same for the immature mod who gives in to retaliatory, knee-jerk reactions without concern for the community as a whole.

The irony is, most of us are mods ourselves. We're not idiots. We know how these things work. So get over the obvious need for oneupmanship and let's try and steer a ship that helps us all.

TruthElixirX
15 May 2006, 02:44
I'd like to know which mod deleted (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=115579) all of JumpD's hack threads 12 hours (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?p=975168#post975168) after the attachments were removed, and why.

Then I'll be able to offer up at least one solution to better the vb.org community: Get rid of that mod.



Oh, and one more solution: Undelete the threads. They were a great resource that helped us all, and will continue to do so in the future. I can't say the same for the immature mod who gives in to retaliatory, knee-jerk reactions without concern for the community as a whole.

The irony is, most of us are mods ourselves. We're not idiots. We know how these things work. So get over the obvious need for oneupmanship and let's try and steer a ship that helps us all.

Jump asked for them to be pulled. =/

Tralala
15 May 2006, 02:45
Jump asked for them to be pulled. =/

No, he did not. (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?p=975126#post975126)

TruthElixirX
15 May 2006, 02:47
No, he did not. (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?p=975126#post975126)
Yeah, I went back and re-read. I completely agree with you.

Tralala
15 May 2006, 02:51
To clarify... yes, he removed the attachments. But he acknowledged that current users could keep enjoying his hacks and referencing the support threads. Of course he was reacting to the current tension. Maybe it would have blown over and he'd come back, with some solid changes in place around here.

But not with the kind of mod response he was met with. This action needs to be reviewed.

Connector
15 May 2006, 02:53
No, he did not. (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?p=975126#post975126)
I notice there is other coder know started to remove their attachment file mmmmm.

Tralala
15 May 2006, 03:02
I notice there is other coder know started to remove their attachment file mmmmm.

Who, pray tell?


Let me know so I can go to those threads and save them as offline text, cuz apparently they'll be deleted soon, too.

:tired:

The Chief
15 May 2006, 03:56
Wouldn't it be best if an admin made an announcement explaining how they will go about fixing all this so called "coder rebellion" :D

Boofo
15 May 2006, 04:02
Wouldn't it be best if an admin made an announcement explaining how they will go about fixing all this so called "coder rebellion" :D

And I'm sure when the staff does come up with ideas for changes, the members here will be the first to know. Changes don't happen overnight. ;)

Adrian Schneider
15 May 2006, 04:07
And I'm sure when the staff does come up with ideas for changes, the members here will be the first to know. Changes don't happen overnight. ;)
Some do. ;)

I would like to see some of those changes too, Paul; some others too.

The Chief
15 May 2006, 04:10
Some do. ;)

I would like to see some of those changes too, Paul; some others too.
Yes, unfortunaetly, some do :D

Gio~Logist
15 May 2006, 04:17
I'm sure a couple of you all new my post was comming as i too have posted a thread like this that got similar posts ;)... By the way, i leave for about a week or so and you guys start this without me!? Hehe. Anyways, here's my $0.02:

The History?
When i first joined vb back in the 2.3.x days it was all about firefly, chen, etc. From the simple quick reply hack that became beyond popular and already implemented to Lesane's store hack who's concept still holds today, it is obvious that coders have built the foundation and dare i say "backbone" for the vbulletin.org in which we know today.

The Present
It has become nothing short than obvious that personal vendettas have led to community disputes for a long time now. Like many people here mention, us coders are part of the reason in which users come to vbulletin and the only reason a user would even think about comming to vbulletin.org Also, as someone mentioned, without coders, there would be no vbulletin.org to hold modifications made by us. Without the extra modifications made by us, the expansion and a lot of the already implemented add ons in which our coding has resulted in would not exist. That being non existant means vbulletin being nothing more than an ipb or phpbb or even an ezboard.

The Present Issues
It is obvious that us coders seek just a little bit more in return. If not for the money in which we have made for vbulletin or the optomization in which we have made possible for users to have, then atleast for the time and dedication put into each bit of coding.

Zach - I believe that you made the statement about coders not making up the community and the users being the blood of this forum. Answer me this question, without us coders, why would users come here? You also made the point of people comming and leaving being a cycle, in regards to that, ask yourself how much faster this cycle has been going as vbulletin.org has gotten older. Need i say more?

Tony - I agree with you as far as you not showing lack of professionalism by being blunt and atleast attending to issues regardless of the cause or solution (if any). However, at times your ability to be so blunt and at times possibly ignorant has led to a bit of dispute.

My Suggestions
Ask not what your coders can do for you, but what you can do for your coders?
A hack database - Hopefully all of this anticipation will lead to an actual result. This will allow for a more organized modification thread and way of handling bugs and such, which then will lead to less complaints of users not being attended to.
A place for commercial scripts to be posted - We help you, why not help us? We are allowed to post the light versions, is having an area to promote or premium version so bad?
More input and idea spread amongst from all usergroups - It's always coders vs staff vs members i've noticed. If everyone would input and put yourself in eachother's shoes, a relation can lead to a resolution.
Coder of the month - It's nice to show what hack has been most useful, but why not make it more personal?
Vbulletin Coder Teams - Lets learn to work with eachother more. Why not form our own development teams and such and have competitions? Perhaps a purpose for a modification can be set and the team who codes and designs it best wins and stuff. Competition creates more work and fun as well as more communication.
Keep Personal Issues Personal - Pretty Self Expanitory.

The Vbulletin Meeting/Chat
Let it be known that i too (right with Revan), will be going to war if i am not part of this chat :p. Hopefully my years of experience with vbulletin as both a rookie user to a rather experienced coder will help as far as what i can input and bring to the dialogue. Just send me a pm here or email to gio@dopegfx.com :p

Boofo
15 May 2006, 04:25
I want all the coders here to do this:

Open up a corner grocery store and demand that your customers respect and honor you because withjout you, they would have to walk further to get their groceries, and then send me your sales totals for the first week.

hambil
15 May 2006, 04:27
I want all the coders here to do this:

Open up a corner grocery store and demand that your customers respect and honor you because withjout you, they would have to walk further to get their groceries, and then send me your sales totals for the first week.
Um... what?

Code Monkey
15 May 2006, 04:27
I want all the coders here to do this:

Open up a corner grocery store and demand that your customers respect and honor you because withjout you, they would have to walk further to get their groceries, and then send me your sales totals for the first week.

How long would you be in business if you craped on all your suppliers?


Get real

Gio~Logist
15 May 2006, 04:27
I want all the coders here to do this:

Open up a corner grocery store and demand that your customers respect and honor you because withjout you, they would have to walk further to get their groceries, and then send me your sales totals for the first week.

No one is asking for honor boofo. Apparently you are getting the impression that some people are looking for sympathy and appraisal. I frown upon sympathy and those who feed off it. However, i also frown upon those who fail to realize that there very purpose for being where they are now is credited to those who they fail to appreciate.

I want you to do this:
Ask all the coders to leave vbulletin.org and come back and see what purpose you have here as a moderator.

Boofo
15 May 2006, 04:30
No one is asking for honor boofo. Apparently you are getting the impression that some people are looking for sympathy and appraisal. I frown upon sympathy and those who feed off it. However, i also frown upon those who fail to realize that there very purpose for being where they are now is credited to those who they fail to appreciate.

Without customers, there would be no need for coders. Appreciation should come from within for a job well done, not from someone on the outside. ;)

Adrian Schneider
15 May 2006, 04:32
I want you to do this:
Ask all the coders (...) what purpose you have here as a moderator.

Just kidding Boofo. :) Anyway, I'm done with these lame arguments. Good luck to world peace.

Boofo
15 May 2006, 04:32
How long would you be in business if you craped on all your suppliers?


Get real

I'm not talking about suppliers as you are not talking about Jelsoft, and THAT is real. Attitude is more important than any code you will ever write, my friend.

Gio~Logist
15 May 2006, 04:32
Without customers, there would be no need for coders. Appreciation should come from within for a job well done, not from someone on the outside. ;)
Sorry if i found that a bit irrelevant, however, no where in any of my posts do i express any lack of appreciation towards noncoders. I actually promoted the idea that all usergroups should work together. Also, it is obvious that my customers are what keep money in my wallet and a purpose for my work. The same way us coders keep users buying vbulletin and a reason for people to visit this site :p

Ohiosweetheart
15 May 2006, 04:32
BOOFO, I posted a reply to Ohiosweetheart and the post was auto merged with my last one. I wanted to suggested to her that she uses VBs payment gateway to sell premium subscriptions.

Optima, I'm sorry I didn't see what part of your post was meant for me? Could you please elaborate?

Tralala
15 May 2006, 04:33
I want all the coders here to do this:

Open up a corner grocery store and demand that your customers respect and honor you because withjout you, they would have to walk further to get their groceries, and then send me your sales totals for the first week.

First post that actually warranted it, and you're missing the wink!


;)

Code Monkey
15 May 2006, 04:34
I'm not talking about suppliers as you are not talking about Jelsoft, and THAT is real. Attitude is more important than any code you will ever write, my friend.

I am obviously not your friend or you would have never treated me like this. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

Boofo
15 May 2006, 04:34
No one is asking for honor boofo. Apparently you are getting the impression that some people are looking for sympathy and appraisal. I frown upon sympathy and those who feed off it. However, i also frown upon those who fail to realize that there very purpose for being where they are now is credited to those who they fail to appreciate.

I want you to do this:
Ask all the coders to leave vbulletin.org and come back and see what purpose you have here as a moderator.

If the coders left, I would Moderate the users and future coders and time would march on. Simple as that, sorry to say. I'm a coder, too, and you don't see me throwing my arms in the air saying "recognize me", do you? ;)

Roms
15 May 2006, 04:34
I want all the coders here to do this:

Open up a corner grocery store and demand that your customers respect and honor you because withjout you, they would have to walk further to get their groceries, and then send me your sales totals for the first week.

Do you have a coupon for that? :D

Boofo
15 May 2006, 04:36
I am obviously not your friend or you would have never treated me like this. ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

Yes, you are considered my friend, sir. I'm sorry you feel otherwise. And more to the point, I, myself, didn't treat you in any way other than I always have. ;)

Gio~Logist
15 May 2006, 04:36
If the coders left, I would Moderate the users and future coders and time would march on. Simple as that, sorry to say. I'm a coder, too, and you don't see me throwing my arms in the air saying "recognize me", do you? ;)

And where have i done so? As far as my coding status, i believe Zachery made it clear that it means nothing :p.

Boofo
15 May 2006, 04:37
Do you have a coupon for that? :D

LOL @ Infantrymen

Boofo
15 May 2006, 04:41
And where have i done so? As far as my coding status, i believe Zachery made it clear that it means nothing :p.I know you're bigger than to let one or two opinions affect you that much. If I got upset everytime someone said I didn't matter or that I mean nothing, I'd be in a permamnet tizzy, trust me. Be like the duck. ;)

Chroder
15 May 2006, 04:42
The wink smilie should be banned from this thread.

;) ;) ;) ;)

Gio~Logist
15 May 2006, 04:44
I know you're bigger than to let one or two opinions affect you that much. If I got upset everytime someone said I didn't matter or that I mean nothing, I'd be in a permamnet tizzy, trust me. Be like the duck. ;)

Hehe. I didn't take it seriously at all, just throwing in some sarcastic humor i guess. I actually like my title. A coder title adds a bit of creditability and such to your status as far as dealing with a customer on here is concerned.

Boofo
15 May 2006, 04:45
Why? It let's everyone know there should not be any hard feelings in all of this so we can move on to something bigger and better. ;)

Adrian Schneider
15 May 2006, 04:46
Why? It let's everyone know there should not be any hard feelings in all of this so we can move on to something bigger and better. ;)
Or it implies that you are being sarcastic. ;)

Boofo
15 May 2006, 04:48
You, personally, know me better than that as well as everyone should. :cross-eyed: (is that better?)

Adrian Schneider
15 May 2006, 04:49
You, personally, know me better than that as well as everyone should. :cross-eyed: (is that better?)
Yep:) I was just suggesting the possibility.

Boofo
15 May 2006, 04:51
That is not even a slight possibility in my case. ;)

joeychgo
15 May 2006, 05:43
Tony, I don't think you fully understand my first post. This has nothing to do with suggested features being turned down. The atmosphere around here just hasn't felt right for along time.

Im not a coder, but I have felt the same way at times. Im sorry to say...

I think the staff of vB should consider this a wake up call. Simply put, some of its most dedicated hack coders are not happy. The question is why and should some things be changed.

Logikos
15 May 2006, 05:56
This is going to be quite a long post, so I suggest tha you are prepaired to be reading for a alittle while. :p

Iíd like to make a few things clear to everyone. Iíve received quite a lot of private messages since this thread I posted. I had non-coding users thanking me for my work and contributions on vB.org. I even a few users asking me to join them with some commercial products soon to come. Iíve spoken to a few people over emails and instant messaging and I want to make it clear that my intentions when making this thread was to tell people how I was feeling, and to leave. I never thought this thread would get as big as it did, I didnít think a lot of people would agree with me and didnít think many users felt as I did.

A few things that came up was the fact that I own another hacking community. Some people would say that Iím in competition with vBulletin.org and since the day I opened my site, Iíve always made it clear that I was not in direct competition with vB.org. To the users who think I am. I would like to prove a point.

I opened my site in March of 2004. Since that day, Iíve remained active on this site. Helping users, posting feedback, posting code for staff (to help as much as I could), and even releasing almost 30 hacks. Some hacks I posted here you canít get at my site, and some hacks I posted at my site you canít get here. Thatís how I wanted it to be. If I was in direct competition with vB.org, then why would I continue to help and support my hacks and users that vist here? Why would I direct users from my site here when they are looking for something that my site cant provide.

Iíve said it once and I keep saying it again. I have not NOT been competting with vB.org since day one. If anyone should understand that, I think Xexon knows best, as Iíve spoken with him privately on occasions.

The other thing I want to point out that this was supposed to be the day I leave and stop being active on vB.org, but after hearing from a lot of the users on this site. It made it hard for me to just leave it behind and not help standup to what I felt was going bad. I can see this turning into something positive and really hope that it can. Thatís why I have remained active in this thread. I even helped a member from here while this thread was going on. Itís just not easy for me to see a thread when a member has an issue and helping them out since you know the answer that will slove there problem.

With that said, I would like to remain active on vBorg to see the outcome of this thread. I can say that if something isnít done soon, members and hackers here will eventually leave and feel as if they were not heard when they voiced there opinions. Here is my suggestion that could help direct this community to a more positive vibe.

The Hacks Database.
The idea of the hacks database is great and will help a lot of members search for things in a much more user-friendlier way. I want to expande on this hacks database idea and bring a few things I had in mind for it.

The first thing is turning the hack authors profile into hack authors profile. Here is a PhotoChop mockup of the idea I had In mind. Users who release modifications should get a profile like this.

47510

Thatís something I threw together. Obviously this is just an idea/suggestion and could room for improvement. Iím also concerned on how the hacks database will change the look and feel of how hacks and templates are hosted. I think you should muniplulate the way the forums work with the hacks database. When your viewing the hacks list on the forumsdisplay page, you should completely change the feel and look of it. Make it look as if where in a total new area of vBulletin.org.

Make things eaiser to naviagate from. Positition the tables neatly. Give it that good old hacks database look. Here is another mockup I created..

47511

I think you get the idea. These are just some of my ideas. I could help create/code etc If needed, but that will be up to the staff. I think changes like this will help the spirt of the community.

The more resorces you give to coders to use, the better we can help support our hacks and bring better quality hacks to life. Having our own bugs systems, feedback system, comments system, faq system, etc will help in more ways the you can imagine. Like I said, I would love to help any to all of these features.

Code Monkey
15 May 2006, 06:07
Some people would say that Iím in competition with vBulletin.org and since the day I opened my site, Iíve always made it clear that I was not in direct competition with vB.org.

Well you should be. What's the point of having that site if it is not going to offer competition. Lack of competition is what has caused the current conditions here. Competition is good.

Logikos
15 May 2006, 06:11
My site is for resource purposes only. There was a demand to have a coding community not controlled by jelsoft, so I made one. The main point of my above post is to show that I'm not competing with vB.org and I would like to help change the way things are around here.

Oblivion Knight
15 May 2006, 06:31
The first thing is turning the hack authors profile into hack authors profile. Here is a PhotoChop mockup of the idea I had In mind. Users who release modifications should get a profile like this.

47510

Thatís something I threw together. Obviously this is just an idea/suggestion and could room for improvement.I really like that concept idea.. :)

Erwin
15 May 2006, 07:00
I'm sure a couple of you all new my post was comming as i too have posted a thread like this that got similar posts ;)... By the way, i leave for about a week or so and you guys start this without me!? Hehe. Anyways, here's my $0.02:

The History?
When i first joined vb back in the 2.3.x days it was all about firefly, chen, etc. From the simple quick reply hack that became beyond popular and already implemented to Lesane's store hack who's concept still holds today, it is obvious that coders have built the foundation and dare i say "backbone" for the vbulletin.org in which we know today.

The Present
It has become nothing short than obvious that personal vendettas have led to community disputes for a long time now. Like many people here mention, us coders are part of the reason in which users come to vbulletin and the only reason a user would even think about comming to vbulletin.org Also, as someone mentioned, without coders, there would be no vbulletin.org to hold modifications made by us. Without the extra modifications made by us, the expansion and a lot of the already implemented add ons in which our coding has resulted in would not exist. That being non existant means vbulletin being nothing more than an ipb or phpbb or even an ezboard.

The Present Issues
It is obvious that us coders seek just a little bit more in return. If not for the money in which we have made for vbulletin or the optomization in which we have made possible for users to have, then atleast for the time and dedication put into each bit of coding.

Zach - I believe that you made the statement about coders not making up the community and the users being the blood of this forum. Answer me this question, without us coders, why would users come here? You also made the point of people comming and leaving being a cycle, in regards to that, ask yourself how much faster this cycle has been going as vbulletin.org has gotten older. Need i say more?

Tony - I agree with you as far as you not showing lack of professionalism by being blunt and atleast attending to issues regardless of the cause or solution (if any). However, at times your ability to be so blunt and at times possibly ignorant has led to a bit of dispute.

My Suggestions
Ask not what your coders can do for you, but what you can do for your coders?
A hack database - Hopefully all of this anticipation will lead to an actual result. This will allow for a more organized modification thread and way of handling bugs and such, which then will lead to less complaints of users not being attended to.
A place for commercial scripts to be posted - We help you, why not help us? We are allowed to post the light versions, is having an area to promote or premium version so bad?
More input and idea spread amongst from all usergroups - It's always coders vs staff vs members i've noticed. If everyone would input and put yourself in eachother's shoes, a relation can lead to a resolution.
Coder of the month - It's nice to show what hack has been most useful, but why not make it more personal?
Vbulletin Coder Teams - Lets learn to work with eachother more. Why not form our own development teams and such and have competitions? Perhaps a purpose for a modification can be set and the team who codes and designs it best wins and stuff. Competition creates more work and fun as well as more communication.
Keep Personal Issues Personal - Pretty Self Expanitory.

The Vbulletin Meeting/Chat
Let it be known that i too (right with Revan), will be going to war if i am not part of this chat :p. Hopefully my years of experience with vbulletin as both a rookie user to a rather experienced coder will help as far as what i can input and bring to the dialogue. Just send me a pm here or email to gio@dopegfx.com :p
For a young man you are very wise. I agree with your observations.

As for the hack db, it is being coded, the coder had to take some time off for personal reasons, so let's be patient. In any case, the hack db is not really the root cause of all this I am pretty sure.

Gio~Logist
15 May 2006, 11:55
For a young man you are very wise. I agree with your observations.

As for the hack db, it is being coded, the coder had to take some time off for personal reasons, so let's be patient. In any case, the hack db is not really the root cause of all this I am pretty sure.

Thank you for your kind comments.

As for the hack db, feel free to put it in the hands of some coders over here if you'd like. I'd be happy to help out, as i know for a fact that a lot of people are anticipating the release.

amykhar
15 May 2006, 13:25
With regards to the liasion status, the general public is not likely to see it in action. I do not think it is appropriate, in most cases, for me to publicly criticize the staff on personal issues. I will comment on board-wide issues, but when it comes to things with one specific staff member, I prefer to discuss issues via pm with the site admins or in the staff forum with the group.

What I try to do is to ensure that staff follows the rules established for the members. For the most part, staff does a damn good job at keeping one another in check. If one staff member becomes frustrated, another invariably steps up and helps calm him down and tries to take over the moderating until the staff member can cool down. A lot is said about the negative things staff does around here, but you have to remember, they do an awful lot of basic forum cleanup - mopping up after misposted stuff and such.

But, I don't want to divert from the topic at hand. For me, the coder's forum solved a lot of the problems here for me. I no longer release code in the release forums because I don't have time to support it. But, I can share stuff in the coder's forum with people who don't need help. This works quite well for me because I don't care about install numbers and such.

Floris
15 May 2006, 14:35
About the meeting:

The vBulletin.com staff have meetings from time to time to discuss certain things. These are private meetings and no vBulletin.org or other staff members are invited. This wednesday is another one and I use that oppertunity to address the vBorg-matters. I am getting privmsgs from users that they all want to get invited: NOT gonna happen.

I only personally suggested that I want to address this at upcoming meeting, then recommend to have a meeting with vborg/com staff together, and if needed to invite a few users in a follow up meeting.

Revan
15 May 2006, 14:52
Floris, we aren't talking about your vBcom guy meeting. We are referring to a meeting where some "top coders" to quote Scott in this post (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showpost.php?p=973893&postcount=91) would be allowed attendance.

Marco van Herwaarden
15 May 2006, 15:10
Revan,

Scott said that he would discuss the option of organizing such a meeting with Wayne. I think he posted further on that he would speak Scott at a Jelsoft meeting (wednesday???)


Edit: Oops forget this post Revan, now i misread yours.

Floris
15 May 2006, 16:00
The thing being he said 'I think'.. which suggests he was thinking outloud
and he said 2 meetings, not the upcoming one which was already planned before this happened (wednesday). As in my summery .. we take it step by step and unfortunatly this means the community has to wait a bit. Wednesday there's a planned staff meeting for Jelsoft, after which we will know more. I also suspect that a meeting between vborg/vbcom staff will take place. And I can't disagree with Scott that another meeting might be handy where users are invited.

And are invited doesn't mean that people can invite themselves. I will not respond to private msgs. It hasn't even been wednesday yet. Who knows .. maybe we resolve this wednesday.

sabret00the
15 May 2006, 16:19
I'll post my general thoughts on all this.

Last time i checked i was an advanced coder however i haven't reallly released anything in a while. mainly due to the fact i don't feel i can test code suffiently without it being run on my live board and until i bring my live board upto speed, i won't have the time to release mods i'm not using. as a result i'm not even supporting my mods at present, i ported what i could and allowed people to build on them. if there was an open source tick box i'd tick it on most of my 3.5.x releases.

While it seems that people don't feel appreciated here, i haven't got a clue about all that, i find users to be a pretty mixed bag anyway, some will promise you donations that never arrive while others will show you the world of gratitude without ever mentioning money. different people show gratitude in different ways.

IMO the problems with vBulletin.org vary. On one hand, there's the fact half the moderators here shouldn't even be mods, whether it's something simple like them being in the employment of Jelsoft, whether they don't post or whether they were appointed using a selection process so advanced, i won't understand it for another fifty years. i'm not saying that i feel anyone here sucks persay, just that i don't feel half the mods need to be moderators. you can look in there forums and to find them seems to be a near impossiblity, being a moderator requires presence and i don't feel the current team for the most part do this.

that said, maybe i'm not the best judge of all of this, my requirements and needs have changed near 180 degrees in the past year. As i see it now, i'm more interested in talking about code, in fact and all things PHP. i spend most of my time reading about people with code problems on the conceptual level and i enjoy it. i thought that teh new coders forum was a great idea, but as Ken mentioned, you can release a hello world script and get access, imo it should be restricted to Advanced coders and should get it's own PHP forum.

I hear people talking about community spirit and what not and you're right it has gone, in my time here i feel like i've had several coding mentors and i've thoroughly enjoyed being taught the little things that make my code nicer an better. one of my best moments in a while was just the other day and the discussion about ctype_digit() vs is_numeric() and in my opinion this is what vBulletin from a coders standpoint should be about.

Instead theres some real segregation, it doesn't really feel like anyone works with anyone else and with several mods on the existing php forum an incredible amount of threads go unanswered there. i spent a while making it my pesonal mission to make sure this isn't the case, but i honestly just felt it was fruitless, especially when you can do all that, go to post an issue you have and wait like a week including bumps just to get an answer.

yes we do have a few mods that suck and yes things could be improved in regards to attitudes around the site. but i feel that the biggest issue here at the moment is that the community in regards to coders doesn't exist. it's not about releasing work, it's about getting coders to want to be here and that doesn't happen, it's not really gonna happen unless some sort of action is taken either. and from my experiences here, there's really not about to be a moderator who's gonna jump up, take the bull by the horns and thread any of the forums into a brighter future. that in itself is a problem.

coders are the be all and end all of this site, whether anyone likes it or not. the amount of moderators that release stuff her is minute, so what is being done to ensure the future stream of hacks? if you want to ensure that the end user has an easy ride then appoint a team to deal with that, but the core of the site IMO should concentrate on making sure the coders are here.

Cloud Strife
15 May 2006, 18:01
One thing i'll suggest as an improvement. Would be for vB.org to add a chat area where licenced users actually can talk about code modding. I think this would be very valuable because it would help people with small coding problems to seek some help. Not only that, but it would bring coders together. The areas for this are quite dead, it either takes a week of bumping a thread or you get no reply at all. How are people supposed to progress with no help? There are tutorials which are very useful but this doesnt cover everything vB. I think that in order to make vB.org flourish you really need to do more to help and motivate potential coders.

MPDev
15 May 2006, 18:50
Leave with a slam of the door or simply walk out, that is the question. I've seen plenty of "I'm outta here" posts on my board, usually by people who just want some attention and usually don't end up leaving after getting a little of it.

Leaving with a slam and taking your ball with you is as old as the playground; your ball, your choice who gets to play with it. Just like the people who own the playground get to set the rules.

It's one thing to talk about improvements, I've been involved in more than a few around here; but to make petty demands and threats and use your ball as a form of blackmail is just wrong.

If you want to leave, leave. Take your balls with you if you want; but don't make so much noise and expect me to come chasing after you. I've got my own balls and while I may play with other peoples balls, at the end of the day I'll leave with the couple balls I brought before the games started.

Logikos
15 May 2006, 19:02
Its clearly obvious that you have not even read this thread from begining to end.

sabret00the
15 May 2006, 19:03
Leave with a slam of the door or simply walk out, that is the question. I've seen plenty of "I'm outta here" posts on my board, usually by people who just want some attention and usually don't end up leaving after getting a little of it.

Leaving with a slam and taking your ball with you is as old as the playground; your ball, your choice who gets to play with it. Just like the people who own the playground get to set the rules.

It's one thing to talk about improvements, I've been involved in more than a few around here; but to make petty demands and threats and use your ball as a form of blackmail is just wrong.

If you want to leave, leave. Take your balls with you if you want; but don't make so much noise and expect me to come chasing after you. I've got my own balls and while I may play with other peoples balls, at the end of the day I'll leave with the couple balls I brought before the games started.
unless there was a post i missed, there were a couple posts that stated he was leaving his toys for the other kids to play with, with his blessing.

MPDev
15 May 2006, 19:06
Yeah, I read them. After 5 pages it reads like this, "blah blah blah". Same thing repeated endlessly in a never-ending circle of drama. Before long it all becomes one big ball of twine; my remarks were necessarily directed at you in their entirity, although I can understand that you might read it like that. They were more of a commentary on the group of posts as a collective as I have neither the time nor the interest in addressing everyone individually.

Logikos
15 May 2006, 19:06
Those are my balls, and I want the users to be able to play with my balls when ever they want.

Yeah, I read them. After 5 pages
Its clearly obvious that you have not even read this thread from begining to end.

MPDev
15 May 2006, 19:08
Most excellent. As it should be.

But do you really need to make such a stink before you leave? Why not just let it go, accept it for what it is and move on to greener pastures? And why haven't you left yet - wasn't that the point of the first post? In my world, "See ya, I'm outta here." is usually followed by the person leaving.

Logikos
15 May 2006, 19:10
Again....
Its clearly obvious that you have not even read this thread from begining to end.

MPDev
15 May 2006, 19:11
Yeah, 14 pages gets a bit repetitive... and me with work to do, well, you know... so I take it you are not leaving, right?

Logikos
15 May 2006, 19:13
Then don't waste my time with your ball comments if your not even going to read the whole thread in full. If you read the whole thread, then you would understand how I stand at this point, and why I made this thread to begin with.

MPDev
15 May 2006, 19:15
So long and farewell.

I thought you were pretty clear in this regard in your first post... my mistake, must have been part of the 'slamming the door to get attention' part.

hambil
15 May 2006, 19:18
while I may play with other peoples balls
Too much information...

Logikos
15 May 2006, 19:20
MPDev, don't even come into this thread and start shit. If you even took a few mins out of your life to open your eyes and read the whole thread, then you would have noticed things in this thread where taking a postive turn in direction. Instead, we have people like you that come in, read the first post out of 200 and make a comment that has nothing to do with the state of this thread anymore.

Your ignorance is the reason this thread has even started.

MPDev
15 May 2006, 19:24
And you make my point exactly; your little sissy-fit got you the attention you wanted and so now you are standing on the sidelines with your balls telling us you might play again, but only under your terms.

Stick and stone and all that....

hambil
15 May 2006, 19:24
And you make my point exactly; your little sissy-fit got you the attention you wanted and so now you are standing on the sidelines with your balls telling us you might play again, but only under your terms.

Stick and stone and all that....
Are you, perhaps, looking for your own attention with your sissy fit about his sissy fit?

MPDev
15 May 2006, 19:26
I have nothing to be worked up about; just pointing out the hypocrisy of the first poster. I have nothing to gain or lose in this discussion; it is what it is.

Logikos
15 May 2006, 19:27
wtf are you talking about? Whats with you and my balls...

First off, I'm not looking for attention. My activty in this community speaks for it self. As far as me holding my 'balls' for blackmailing purposes. Where did I state that I was taking my hacks down? I think I remember saying that I want my hacks to stay up.

Wait a min... That was the first post.

MPDev
15 May 2006, 19:28
Don't be so self-absorbed... not everything here is about you... just parts of it.

And with that, I'll move over to the other section of the playground.... this sandbox is full.

Cloud Strife
15 May 2006, 19:32
@livewire. Just ignore this guy. Looks like mpdev's wanting this thread to be closed for some reason.

@MPDev. Read the full thread first, then make your comments. Theres no point in you reading 5 pages then posting. You dont understand what the thread is about anymore

Logikos
15 May 2006, 19:33
How am I being self-absorbed? Your the one talking about how I am looking for attention and how I am using my "balls" as a form of blackmale. I clearly proved to you that I wasn't. So go play in your little sandbox and let the big boys play amoungs thereselfs. ;)

Your more then likely right, so This is my last comment to you Dev.

Floris
15 May 2006, 19:42
This is an unofficial warning, because I am not a moderator on this forum. But you guys are on the edge of having this thread closed or posts deleted.

Behave and respect this web site's forum rules.

Jay...
15 May 2006, 19:44
woosh its all kicking off in here!

TheMusicMan
15 May 2006, 19:59
@LiveWire: I have been watching and reading this thread closely - as a long term user of vB. I am not a coder but would certainly like to be, and would love to benefit from your experience and expertise on that journey, but... I am a pragmatic and successful businessman. I may at some point make a post about what I read here, but what I'd say to you now is simply ignore these latest outbursts by people who are so hypocritical that it is laffable. You have conducted yourself in a professional and courteous manner... all credit to you.

Hint: use the ignore feature... but who am I to tell a coder about such basics eh... :)

Keep up the good debate people.

Rich
15 May 2006, 20:04
Hello,

I have been a member here for a couple years now. I have seen the change in atmosphere as well. There are many things that have been lost on this site. Many of which, as of recent, are the coders themselves.

I am not a skilled coder like Livewire. I look to the coders like Livewire and Sam (thegeek) to learn. I view their code and try to pick it apart. When they leave, so too does anything I could have learned from some of their future releases.

The attitude of some of the people on this site is absolutely ridiculous. If you want a great example, have a look at all of the bashing that went on in the "Donations" modification. The coder (cloud I believe) was slammed more times in that thread than any other I have read.

It seems that a lot of the "newbies" feel obligated and expect things from this site. Many seem to have forgotten that this site is just a resource....a FREE resource.

When I first joined this site, I asked MANY questions. Back then, I got MANY answers. The "community" as a whole was a hell of a lot more friendly, and everyone seemed to help each other out. It isn't like that anymore. There are still some great people here, but the way the site was has dissipated.

MPDev
15 May 2006, 20:24
But you guys are on the edge of having this thread closed or posts deleted.

I swear it wasn't me, it was them.

<hands behind back, whistling.... />

Trana
15 May 2006, 21:56
I want all the coders here to do this:

Open up a corner grocery store and demand that your customers respect and honor you because withjout you, they would have to walk further to get their groceries, and then send me your sales totals for the first week.

This is exactly the reason this site is dysfunctional. What is the point of this post? (from a mod no less!)

Boofo
15 May 2006, 22:07
This is exactly the reason this site is dysfunctional. What is the point of this post? (from a mod no less!)

It was meant in jest during a very heated time. You really had to be there to understand it the way it was meant.

Roms
15 May 2006, 22:15
This is exactly the reason this site is dysfunctional. What is the point of this post? (from a mod no less!)

No, that's not the reason this place is dysfunctional, the point was to make an analogy to how people are acting. :confused:

Now, do you want paper or plastic? :tired:

Boofo
15 May 2006, 22:20
Here comes the Infantry! ;)

Tralala
15 May 2006, 22:27
It was meant in jest during a very heated time. You really had to be there to understand it the way it was meant.

Ah, the old "ya had to be there" line.

The posts are all here, in context. Anyone can review them. Not to mention, the comment was made last night.

Maybe the ";)" comes in handy after all?


:D

Erwin
15 May 2006, 22:28
About the meeting:

The vBulletin.com staff have meetings from time to time to discuss certain things. These are private meetings and no vBulletin.org or other staff members are invited. This wednesday is another one and I use that oppertunity to address the vBorg-matters. I am getting privmsgs from users that they all want to get invited: NOT gonna happen.

I only personally suggested that I want to address this at upcoming meeting, then recommend to have a meeting with vborg/com staff together, and if needed to invite a few users in a follow up meeting.

The fact that Jelsoft and vB.com staff have meetings to discuss vB.org in the absence of the vB.org admins and staff reflects the lack of consultation and direction that vB.org staff gets from Jelsoft. That's all I'm going to say on the matter. I'm glad a potential meeting may occur at some stage between Jelsoft and the vB.org staff.

amykhar
15 May 2006, 22:31
I think an analogy more apt than the grocery store one would be that of a pot-luck dinner at a church that has gone very, very wrong. In a pot-luck dinner, every family brings a dish of their favorite food to share with the group. People eat a bit of this and that and talk and maybe swap recipes. There is no menu. There are no waiters or short-order cooks.

Now, imagine you take your dinner to the pot-luck dinner, and out of the 100 people who come, 4 bring food. Most of the other 96 people come and very quietly eat some of the food and leave. A few smile and say thank you. And, because it's a church and you have some food there, you really don't mind.

A few people who don't cook try to help out. They wash dishes, and pick up the trash. They help the small kids and older people who can't fill their own plates. They try to add something to the party.

But, 2 or 3 of the people who don't bring food start asking for stuff that isn't there. And, they get angry when you won't dish out their plates and serve them at their table. And, they yell at the people who did cook and tell them that the food is no good and it would be much better if you served steak instead of baked beans.

Those 2 or 3 people are far from the majority, but they certainly aren't much incentive for the 4 people who were willing to share their food to do so again.

Roms
15 May 2006, 22:37
I think an analogy more apt than the grocery store one would be that of a pot-luck dinner at a church that has gone very, very wrong. In a pot-luck dinner, every family brings a dish of their favorite food to share with the group. People eat a bit of this and that and talk and maybe swap recipes. There is no menu. There are no waiters or short-order cooks.

Now, imagine you take your dinner to the pot-luck dinner, and out of the 100 people who come, 4 bring food. Most of the other 96 people come and very quietly eat some of the food and leave. A few smile and say thank you. And, because it's a church and you have some food there, you really don't mind.

A few people who don't cook try to help out. They wash dishes, and pick up the trash. They help the small kids and older people who can't fill their own plates. They try to add something to the party.

But, 2 or 3 of the people who don't bring food start asking for stuff that isn't there. And, they get angry when you won't dish out their plates and serve them at their table. And, they yell at the people who did cook and tell them that the food is no good and it would be much better if you served steak instead of baked beans.

Those 2 or 3 people are far from the majority, but they certainly aren't much incentive for the 4 people who were willing to share their food to do so again.

Please pass the salt, thanks. :)

Don't be sad Boofo. I'm sure amykhar will let you bring something from your grocery store to the pot-luck. ;)

amykhar
15 May 2006, 22:43
Please pass the salt, thanks. :)
my pleasure :)

sabret00the
15 May 2006, 22:50
The fact that Jelsoft and vB.com staff have meetings to discuss vB.org in the absence of the vB.org admins and staff reflects the lack of consultation and direction that vB.org staff gets from Jelsoft. That's all I'm going to say on the matter. I'm glad a potential meeting may occur at some stage between Jelsoft and the vB.org staff.
lol, i find this post hilarious, but it's so true.

ps, my monster of a post was lost in the mpdev/livewire arguing, bump my post, it's the most relevant thing in the world :p

MPDev
15 May 2006, 23:33
All this talk of a pot-luck dinner has me hungry and while there is sport to be found in poking angry kitties with sticks, I'll glide over to the apple pie and take a seat.

I sincerely hope that both sides can take a moment and see the perspective of the other side so that in the future we can all enjoy the pie without the drama.

Tralala
15 May 2006, 23:39
Mmmm..... PIE.....

MPDev
15 May 2006, 23:43
Warm Apple Pie... and warm whipped cream... with some ice cream...

Okay, who brought the hot carmel?

Boofo
15 May 2006, 23:47
Where is there a hot camel?! I have to see this!

davidw
16 May 2006, 00:08
I've been to the Persian Gulf - I got to see a hot camel there...