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View Full Version : Whats with JumpDs mods! Part 2


dwbro1
16 May 2006, 19:57
Well since someone decided to close the other thread I think it is worth continuing so I'll start part II.

I am really upset as I have one of JumpD's add-ons installed and I needed to read on an issue I know has already had an answer given for but they are GONE. If you can close a thread like the previous one gripping about this issue then just CLOSE his hack. That way we could STILL GET HELP on at least previous issues. OMG

hambil
16 May 2006, 20:08
The threads should be restored and perhaps moved out of the modification forums. I hope the staff doesn't hold the line just for the sake of pride. Everyone makes mistakes when we are upset. I made a mistake starting that 'code out' thread. The staff made a mistake when they deleted JumpD's threads.

Let's all be the bigger man/woman, and fix it and move on.

Paul M
16 May 2006, 20:13
I thought they were discussing putting them in an archive forum or something ?

hambil
16 May 2006, 20:16
I thought they were discussing putting them in an archive forum or something ?
That would be good. Let's hope so.

Freesteyelz
16 May 2006, 23:57
I thought the deletion was part of the policy?

Chris M
17 May 2006, 00:15
Deletion is part of the current policy but we are discussing ways to improve the policy...

Chris

Freesteyelz
17 May 2006, 00:24
It seems that you guys/gals have a lot on the plate. Remember in the end, ask for a hefty raise. :classic:

EricaJoy
17 May 2006, 03:26
Please bring back JumpD's threads.

/me begs to the vb.org powers that be

Tralala
17 May 2006, 03:29
It's not rocket science; bring back the threads.

Zachery
17 May 2006, 03:33
there are currently no files attached to these threads. Thus they were removed. We are talking about what to do, untill then if jumpD would like to restore the files we will move the threads back as they will follow the current rule.

Roms
17 May 2006, 03:33
It's not rocket science; bring back the threads.

/me agrees and has said more than enough about this already...

there are currently no files attached to these threads. Thus they were removed. We are talking about what to do, untill then if jumpD would like to restore the files we will move the threads back as they will follow the current rule.

So JumpD? What's the word? We would all like to see your Mods back in place. :)

Tralala
17 May 2006, 03:57
there are currently no files attached to these threads. Thus they were removed. We are talking about what to do, untill then if jumpD would like to restore the files we will move the threads back as they will follow the current rule.

JumpD removed his hacks because he felt insulted by some public comments made by the moderators here. He was told he was "expendable" and "replacable." Considering the immense contributions JumpD has made here, I don't blame him for having negative feelings about that.

Since then, Erwin has apologized for these comments and also posited that coders are, indeed, the lifeblood of this site. Perhaps JumpD needs to hear that before he comes back and offers up his hacks again? Yes, much of this is about pride. And why place the burden on others? I'd think a forum mod here (of all forums) would know how to keep the eye on the "bigger picture."

In the meantime, all of the existing users of these hacks are caught in the crossfire. Hundreds of folks installed these very complex hacks, and those pages have valuable information for us. Hell, I contributed to some of them.

And these weren't simple one-line template changes, either. ArticleBot and the Live Feedback System were intense pieces of code.

This ain't Congress, it's a frickin' forum, for forum mods. Enough filibustering, admit a mistake was made, and bring back the threads, please. Maybe that'll show JumpD (a very valued coder here) that there's hope for this community yet. I think there's room here to be human, to be mature, to be realistic, and flexible. Maybe that'll show a new user like me that this is a forum worth investing my time and interest in.

How long will it take for this silly "policy" to be changed, anyway? My forum and my business rely on some of the support offered up in those threads. By removing them wholesale, a mere 12 hours after the attachments were removed, without warning to current users... by golly, I can't think of a more rash and short-sighted move.

Zachery
17 May 2006, 07:47
I am sorry for you that JumpD misunderstood the words I personally spoke. I made several attempts to re-explain myself. Yes, Erwin apologized for me, after I had apologized myself.

I understand, however the fact remains at this time, the threads contain no modifications, as far as I know JumpD has not contacted any of the moderators asking for his threads to be re-instated so he can re attach the mods. These threads were removed from the public due to the rules we currently have in effect. Until Erwin, Stefan, Brad or Wayne make a final say I cannot re-instate the said modification threads.

I’m sorry that you disagree with our policies however; the moderators here were just following procedure that has been set in place by the staff (read admins) of this forum. We were not the ones who removed the modifications, JumpD did, he can contact any one of the moderators, or administrators, or even make a thread asking for his threads to be moved back so he re-attach said threads.

This is not the first time this has happened, Nexialys removed his attachments and the same policy was followed, I did not see any mass outrage at this. We cannot make a special exception for one user in the rules. We are awaiting an admin ruling, until this happens we (the mods) are not going to take any action.

dwbro1
18 May 2006, 04:12
This is not the first time this has happened, Nexialys removed his attachments and the same policy was followed, I did not see any mass outrage at this. We cannot make a special exception for one user in the rules. We are awaiting an admin ruling, until this happens we (the mods) are not going to take any action.

As a C-level executive responsible for hundreds of customer service agents and engineers, if this were my organization, some of you would no longer be employeed today.

This group of screaming "Customers" out here is YOUR customer, not JumpD's. You (Vbulletin.org) can put policies in place all day long that try and remove the responbility from you but you are the mechanism for which people receive the product. Ultimately, your actions and not the individual programmers, are what is viewed by the customers and those actions have a DIRECT impact on Jefsoft's reputation. Like it or not and hide behind different names but the actions of VB.org are the actions of Jelsoft.

Every first year, CS agent and marketing professional learns the rules:

1. Customer is always right.
2. When customer is wrong, refer to rule #1.

Folks this is not about pride or policies, just reinstate the threads without the files and close for more posting. Put an announcement in the thread stating the facts and it will be pending further review for a decision. Right now you have a real growing issue here and you need to get off your duffs and take the appropiate action, for your customers.

Danny.VBT
18 May 2006, 04:55
As a C-level executive responsible for hundreds of customer service agents and engineers, if this were my organization, some of you would no longer be employeed today.

This group of screaming "Customers" out here is YOUR customer, not JumpD's. You (Vbulletin.org) can put policies in place all day long that try and remove the responbility from you but you are the mechanism for which people receive the product. Ultimately, your actions and not the individual programmers, are what is viewed by the customers and those actions have a DIRECT impact on Jefsoft's reputation. Like it or not and hide behind different names but the actions of VB.org are the actions of Jelsoft.

Every first year, CS agent and marketing professional learns the rules:

1. Customer is always right.
2. When customer is wrong, refer to rule #1.

Folks this is not about pride or policies, just reinstate the threads without the files and close for more posting. Put an announcement in the thread stating the facts and it will be pending further review for a decision. Right now you have a real growing issue here and you need to get off your duffs and take the appropiate action, for your customers.


I understand that you are sick of hearing about policies and delays, but it's all some of us can tell you guys.

As someone who has worked Customer Support, I've learned to follow any policy, exactly how it is stated. If a customer is unhappy with the policy, the issue is escalated to someone higher in the hierarchy of support.

This is the state where we are now, and I sincerely apologize for the wait. Action will be taken as soon as possible.

We understand there are problems with vb.org, we are trying are hardest to get things in the right direction quickly and efficiently. Things are changing, and it's these moments when changes are being discussed that everyone needs to be patient. That's all I am asking personally.

The staff here are not employed by Jelsoft, we are volunteers and are trying the best we can at the moment. Please understand this.

kira
18 May 2006, 07:24
But with respect, Danny, you guys are trying to have it both ways.

On the one hand, y'all keep telling us that nothing's really official at vb.org, you're all volunteers, we regular members shouldn't expect 100% professionalism or customer support, etc. etc. etc.

Yet for some reason this casual, volunteer, member-helping-member sorta place has policy regarding returning deleted threads that's so inflexible, so writ in stone, that woe be unto the moderator who violates said policy. Things are so wrapped in red tape here in vb.orgland that in order to make a simple decision like this, you guys have to run it through a special investigatory subcommittee before dispatching your findings to the admins via carrier pigeon, after which the admins consult with the Vatican and wait for a smoke signal to appear.

Folks like Scott, Wayne and Floris are extremely accessible and don't take billions of years to make easy decisions like this. All we're talking about is moving the threads back to the active forum and locking them so they don't get bumped. There's no ethical quandary, no technical nightmare here.

Seriously, dudes. It took longer for me to type this post than it should've taken an admin to say "okay, restore the threads."

bairy
18 May 2006, 10:44
Kira has a good point.

There's far too much of this hiding behind policy these days. It goes on all over the place, both online and offline.

Policies are generally created to serve and/or protect the community, and as such they should be flexible in their approach.

In this case, if there are certain threads that contain useful information* then a decision should be made for the overall good, and not follow a cast iron inflexible policy of "no attachment, no thread". Taking the inflexible "that's what it says, that's what goes" attitude will more likely create more harm than good, which apart from being a PITA, is contradictory to the point of why it was made to start with.


* I haven't seen the referrered-to JumpD threads but with the amount of talk about them and the fact there's been no denial of their usefullness I would imagine they live up to the hype.


I have been loosely following this whole change in methods and what caused it all, and I think that the messages currently coming from admin are much more positive and welcome, but I think one of the first barriers that needs to be broken is the cast iron approach of "what we say goes". Yes, that is the role of site staff but didn't this whole thing start because of exactly that attitude?
Also, who exactly made up these policies? Was it a discussion amongst everyone, or just the (voluntary) staff?

FleaBag
18 May 2006, 11:12
We need to remember though, that the mods are not to blame. As mentioned, they have to follow policy and escalate in order to review the situation. They are not responsible for the policy itself! If the vB staff in charge of this place were really so accessible would this place be on a downward spiral? I think the problem with vB at the moment is that the customer isn't being served, because they are not understood! I don't blame Jelsoft for this, because at the end they are coders and do not specialise in people interaction - but because of this I think it really is time a customer services representitive (who has experience in REAL customer service) was hired/appointed. It doesn't have to be a paid role! Just someone who has understanding of the customer, and how not to offend them! I have seen many posts here from mods in recent times on the 'high horse' - this needs to END! - Not all mods are to blame though, and I'm not specifically referring to anyone (i.e. Zach is a friend of mine). I appreciate though that vB.org isn't burning in hellfire, but it certainly isn't such a great place to be at the moment (the hacks though, are still great!).

The Geek
18 May 2006, 17:04
The problem is not the 'rules' but how they are enfoced.

You can shout up and down about 'no zip, no thread', yet you guys have had vBarticles up here for over 1 year and it hasnt been downloadable. Heck, it has its own freaking forum!

You cant say you havent noticed, mods have posted in the premium forum and on the thread.

what was it... 6 hours for someone who spoke out and over 1 year (still going) for someone that didnt?

I sat a couple days before pointing out the hypocrisy, however I finally caved in. I am sure there are others - its just that I remember all the hoopla last year over a 'premium modification' having its own forum but not being able to actually download it from this site. Mods were cool about the situation - giving the author the benefit of the doubt. Why is everything so different?

http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showpost.php?p=637734&postcount=1118

Im not trying to 'grass' anyone up. I am just pointing out that the rules are flexible when it seems to suit staff but inflexible when it doesnt. I am sure if Cinq would have made a stink that he was leaving because of staff and such, his stuff would have been pulled long ago.

I think Cinqs stuff is still valubale for the hundreds of users that installed the system. Obviously its of less value now as it doesnt look like anyone has installed in a year. However people have recently installed Jumps stuff. Archive it for thier use. If he returns his hacks - reinstate them as full threads. If not, leave them archived for 6 months and then dump them.

Stop playing ego games and get this site back on track!

I might as well add to the additional inconsistencies about rule enforcement around here.

Check this sticky thread out-> http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=102739

Notice anything interesting? A lot of 3rd party vendors selling skins.
However oddly enough it can't be done for 3rd part modifications. Geez, customers seemed to appreciate the information on skins - but saying '3rd party vendor for modifications' is akin to saying you worship the lord of darkness around here.

Rules are great - if you follow them and enforce them across the board. Otherwise they come back and nibble your bum.

Enough poo stirring for now :)

Brad
18 May 2006, 19:44
This author's modifications were not removed out of spite, the moderator that did so was just following policy. This user was very vocal in the last few days, so it's easy to assume this was done out of spite, but the fact is the author was vocal so it was noticed right off and dealt with. Yes there are examples of other modifications that have lingered in the forums for awhile without begin deleted, they have ethor gone un-noticed or a grace period was given' and it was never followed up on.

You guys have asked for a 'grave yard' for these threads, and this is begin considered. But it is one of a million things that have come up in the last 5 days or so (I would say we've gotten more feedback in that short period of time, then we have gotten in the last month). Give us some time to sort this out, and get things moving on our end, that's all I ask. :)

DrewM
18 May 2006, 20:22
This author's modifications were not removed out of spite, the moderator that did so was just following policy. This user was very vocal in the last few days, so it's easy to assume this was done out of spite, but the fact is the author was vocal so it was noticed right off and dealt with. Yes there are examples of other modifications that have lingered in the forums for awhile without begin deleted, they have ethor gone un-noticed or a grace period was given' and it was never followed up on.
well now there noticed and mods are viewing this thread and still leaving it!

Tralala
18 May 2006, 21:00
While the mods deliberate and conjecture and draft by-laws and lobby Congress, here's a radical idea...

How about reinstating the threads for, like a week or so, so the users who need information in them can save them to their hard drives? Install the Download Thread as PDF (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=91562) hack, and that'll make it super easy for interested parties to grab them in the meantime.

Martin
18 May 2006, 21:21
Here's a thought.

Everyone here who has contributed monetarily to the upkeep of this site and/or clicked the donate link in any of the mods you currently use to show your appreciation for the coders here, please raise your hand.

There is talk of the Admins/Mods, who are indeed doing this on their own time for the love of vBulletin and the members here, wanting it both ways. Perhaps some of the people who are complaining in this thread may need to step back and take a look at themselves. They seem to want the benefit of a free service run by volunteers as well as an entity with corporate responsibilities and mentality. You can't have it both ways.

In case people haven't noticed, there are changes being implemented. Yes, they are taking some time, but they are being implemented by an all volunteer staff who do this in their spare time. They, just like you, have day jobs they are responsible for, some have familial obligations, etc, etc, etc, just like you. Give them some time to get it done and you might wind up happy witht he results, though as in anything, there are those who would complain if you hung them with a brand new rope.

While this site is sanctioned by vBulletin, it is not a vBulletin run site. The site was set up so that coders who love the product and want to share their work with the general vBulletin community could do so without worrying about giving it away to pirates. We are aware, however, that the thoughts and attitudes expressed here can have a negative impact on how Jelsoft looks and we do try to work with the vB.org staff to resolve issues. We cannot step in and override their authority here, or it would defeat the purpose of this project.

Every forum I have ever been associated with always talks about "the good old days" and inevitably develops a groups of people who consider their tenure a license to act elitist. It's the nature of forums, in fact it's the nature of any club or social organization. Any of you who have large-ish boards should know this. You should also know that things have a way of working themselves out in the end, and sometimes it takes a major event, as seems to be happening here.

Please be a little patient and allow the admins and mods here to try to get things sorted.

Tralala
19 May 2006, 03:23
Everyone here who has contributed monetarily to the upkeep of this site and/or clicked the donate link in any of the mods you currently use to show your appreciation for the coders here, please raise your hand.

/raises hand

Paul M
19 May 2006, 03:30
I've contributed financially to the Author of ALL my hacks ;)

dwbro1
19 May 2006, 04:37
Here's a thought.

Everyone here who has contributed monetarily to the upkeep of this site and/or clicked the donate link in any of the mods you currently use to show your appreciation for the coders here, please raise your hand.


raises hand


There is talk of the Admins/Mods, who are indeed doing this on their own time for the love of vBulletin and the members here, wanting it both ways. Perhaps some of the people who are complaining in this thread may need to step back and take a look at themselves. They seem to want the benefit of a free service run by volunteers as well as an entity with corporate responsibilities and mentality. You can't have it both ways.


ok, I only continued this thread to try and get HELP on a problem I was experiencing with one of the GREAT mods by JumpD. It should have been simple to just reinstate the threads and close them, until a final decision could be made. This would have taken less time to accomplish than the time spent reading these threads.


In case people haven't noticed, there are changes being implemented. Yes, they are taking some time, but they are being implemented by an all volunteer staff who do this in their spare time. They, just like you, ......


Believe me I feel for volunteers and PAID support staff, especially a lvl 1 position, as they take the brunt of abuse from the customers. I don't think anyone here, ok maybe some, do not truely apprecaite vb.org and all the great work from everyone, I know I sure do. This is not, too me, about any past or ongoing support issue, I have made a "simple" request and now am sitting back and patiently waiting a resolution. Although, it appears this might become quite a telling support issue played out in public. :)


While this site is sanctioned by vBulletin, it is not a vBulletin run site. The site was set up so that coders who love the product and want to share their work with the general vBulletin community could do so without worrying about giving it away to pirates. We are aware, however, that the thoughts and attitudes expressed here can have a negative impact on how Jelsoft looks and we do try to work with the vB.org staff to resolve issues. We cannot step in and override their authority here, or it would defeat the purpose of this project.


Well how about a nudge? :)


Please be a little patient and allow the admins and mods here to try to get things sorted.


I'm being patient but as the "customer" I only see one course of action. So, am I being patient for them to restore the messages and close them, or am I being patient for them to make a decision on if they are going to restore them?

The Geek
19 May 2006, 04:43
Hey Martin,

Everyone here has contributed to the upkeep of the site as we are all vBulletin license holders. I assume it is Jelsoft that pays for hosting, hardware, licenses, etc... its .org that is the one stop referal spot for pre-sales questions regarding functionality not that doesnt come with vB (you pointed this out the other day)

Taking a step back, it seems to me that it is Jelsoft that is wanting it both ways. You want an free modding community to promote sales of your software but Jelsoft wants to totally control it, yet distance itself from it. You want it run a certain way but won't pay people to do it. You feel everyone should contribute their work FOC but you guys will charge for your yours (and no one should ever mention otherwise).

vbulletin.org is a brand name and every much a part of vBulletin as .com - Jelsoft needs to support .org so it is as strong of a brand and as beneficial to Jelsoft as it can be.

I look forward to seeing the changes played out.

Here's a thought.

Everyone here who has contributed monetarily to the upkeep of this site and/or clicked the donate link in any of the mods you currently use to show your appreciation for the coders here, please raise your hand.

There is talk of the Admins/Mods, who are indeed doing this on their own time for the love of vBulletin and the members here, wanting it both ways. Perhaps some of the people who are complaining in this thread may need to step back and take a look at themselves. They seem to want the benefit of a free service run by volunteers as well as an entity with corporate responsibilities and mentality. You can't have it both ways.

In case people haven't noticed, there are changes being implemented. Yes, they are taking some time, but they are being implemented by an all volunteer staff who do this in their spare time. They, just like you, have day jobs they are responsible for, some have familial obligations, etc, etc, etc, just like you. Give them some time to get it done and you might wind up happy witht he results, though as in anything, there are those who would complain if you hung them with a brand new rope.

While this site is sanctioned by vBulletin, it is not a vBulletin run site. The site was set up so that coders who love the product and want to share their work with the general vBulletin community could do so without worrying about giving it away to pirates. We are aware, however, that the thoughts and attitudes expressed here can have a negative impact on how Jelsoft looks and we do try to work with the vB.org staff to resolve issues. We cannot step in and override their authority here, or it would defeat the purpose of this project.

Every forum I have ever been associated with always talks about "the good old days" and inevitably develops a groups of people who consider their tenure a license to act elitist. It's the nature of forums, in fact it's the nature of any club or social organization. Any of you who have large-ish boards should know this. You should also know that things have a way of working themselves out in the end, and sometimes it takes a major event, as seems to be happening here.

Please be a little patient and allow the admins and mods here to try to get things sorted.

Martin
19 May 2006, 04:44
Actually, since everything here is free, you don't exactly qualify as a "customer". A customer is someone who has paid for a specific product. vBulletin.org is a free service that is offered without warranty.
That said, I feel your pain. JumpD did have some great hacks here, but he is the one who made the choice to remove them. Since he made that choice, you will need to wait until a decision is made.

Martin
19 May 2006, 05:01
Taking a step back, it seems to me that it is Jelsoft that is wanting it both ways. You want an free modding community to promote sales of your software but Jelsoft wants to totally control it, yet distance itself from it. You want it run a certain way but won't pay people to do it. You feel everyone should contribute their work FOC but you guys will charge for your yours (and no one should ever mention otherwise).

vBulletin/Jelsoft does not want to "control" vBulletin.org. We actually take a pretty much hands off approch to the community here. As Wayne said, it is designed as a "member-to-member" community.
We do not exhort any control over the way this site is run. We do work with the vB.org staff to help resolve issues, but we do not step on their toes in the way they run the site.
As odd as it might seem to you, we have to maintain this sort of approach in order to "distance" ourselves. If we do not "distance" ourselves, we then become by implication responsible for the hacks published here, therefore responsibe for supporting code we did not write.

We do not force people to release code here, so your accusation that we feel everyone should release their code here for free is unfounded and without merit. Does vBulletin.org benefit us? Yes, it most certainly does. Should we be ashamed of that? No, we shouldn't.

It also provides a well known place for coders to showcase their talents and turn that talent into money by taking paid jobs that are available through the "Services" forum, and a lot of coders here have benefited through providing great lite versions of their paid software additions to vBulletin, so it's not exactly a one way street in regards to making money. Unlike services like eLance and RentACoder no commission is received by Jelsoft for any paid work you pick up here.
There are over 3,200 requests in the Service Requests forum, and lord knows how many deals have been handled via PM. So the coders here, should they choose to, can use this as a place to make money for themselves. Somehow that seems live it achieves something like parity.

vbulletin.org is a brand name and every much a part of vBulletin as .com - Jelsoft needs to support .org so it is as strong of a brand and as beneficial to Jelsoft as it can be.

I look forward to seeing the changes played out.

We do try to provide as much support for .org as we can. Again, we also have to maintain a hands-off stance in a most regards.

The Geek
19 May 2006, 05:01
Ouch.

Since I have to own a license from Jelsoft to download anything from here, then I have to be a Jelsoft customer to use the site. Therefore I have paid to use this site.

Regardless its a Jelsoft venture filled with its customers. The sooner Jelsoft stops passing the buck on it - the better :)

Martin
19 May 2006, 05:10
I don't see how we pass the buck on it, but I'm not going to get drawn into an argument regarding this.

The Geek
19 May 2006, 05:22
do I get a cheese stick (or equivalent prize) for posting at the same time?

I did not mean that Jelsoft expects everyone to code for free and then place it on .org - I was speaking to the fact that you guys still haven't pulled your thumb out about the commercial directory thing. That wasn't .org holding that one up - it was Jelsoft. Service requests? Have you ever posted a service request before? I have! Forgive me if I am correct, however a lot of people seem to whinge that no one ever responds to their service requests.

Regardless, we are bantering now which I do not want to do. All I want to do was address your 'you guys want it both ways' approach as it was soooo ironic.

In fact, my first post in this thread wasnt about 'I love Jumpd, bring back his mods' it was about pointing out hypocrisy. This wasnt an 'oversight'. The same mod that axed Jumps threads was the same mod that posted 'well, let's give the author a chance to re-upload the files' over a year ago. It has taken over a full year for this hack with no download AND its own forum to get noticed? Puhleeze!

Anyway - my post just went back to bantering again! I apologize, I have man-flu and I havent had coffee yet!

I don't see how we pass the buck on it, but I'm not going to get drawn into an argument regarding this.
sorry Martin - what I meant about passing the buck is for Jelsoft to sluff off responsability for the site - and you're right, lets not argue anymore about it. I don't understand all of Jelsofts reasons and I guess I don't need to.

Thanks for taking the time.

Krahl
19 May 2006, 05:57
I'll point out that one of the primary reasons why I've chosen vBulletin for two licenses was the thriving and helpful community here at .org. Having mods that help your site and community are a vital aspect of doing business (even if it's just a hobby site) these days.

I will also note that I was set to buy a third license almost immediately but due to this upheaval that third purchase is very much on hold until some resolution is found to the massive bleeding of talent going on here.

From the perspective of one of those who utilize the free mods here - and as one who has paid a talented coder more than once for their work - I am severely disappointed how things are going. I really hope things get ironed out sooner rather than later.

hambil
19 May 2006, 06:11
Martin, I really don't want to draw anyone into an argument, but we are getting mixed signals. We are told Jelsoft has the final say on a commercial directory, but you say Jelsoft lets this site do what it wants.

You say raise your hand if you've contributed, because this is a volunteer site, but every member - every single member - has to pay to use this site. And, every member who writes a hack, or downloads and installs a hack, or answers a question, contributes to this site, and by proxy vBulletin and Jelsoft.

I understand that Jelsoft has had a great thing here for a long time - nearly completely free sales, service and enhancements. Developers like myself who make upwards of $75 an hour on the open market are adding to your product and paying you for the privilage.

However, things are changing, as they always must. And Jelsoft has to let this site change with it, or they'll lose more then they gain in the long run.

dwbro1
21 May 2006, 02:02
Just for the record I'm still being patient waiting on a fix for my problem which is contained within the archived / removed threads.

Zachery
21 May 2006, 02:35
Is there a fix posted in the thread? If so which one, I read though over 100 pages and didn't see any recent fixes in any of the threads. If you asked a question about getting a fix, jump is no longer providing support for his mods so I don't know what you are expecting.

Roms
21 May 2006, 08:21
Face it folks, it's up to JumpD now. If he wants to contact the staff and re-attach the zip files he's back in business.. Otherwise he's on a break and no support for his hack/modifications unless someone else steps in.

Sad but true, time to move on and leave it to JumpD to decide.....

dwbro1
21 May 2006, 11:50
It isn't a fix the product is working there is just an array problem (pulling the message) that I am having when the messages are imported in. I am sure there is an answer burried in those 100 pages to my question but of course they are no longer there. I even tried pulling the cached pages on google but there was only 1 or so pages cached. :( For the love of all that is human put the freaking threads back up in an archive somewhere.

Zachery
21 May 2006, 12:39
Sorry, you can aruge with me and ask untill the cows turn blue, the policy was decided to be kept in place for now. We will not be returning the threads at this time. If such a change is made you will be made aware.

There is nothing stoping you from posting in the general modifications questions or a smiliar forum asking for help from other users :)

Tralala
21 May 2006, 14:23
Sorry, you can aruge with me and ask untill the cows turn blue, the policy was decided to be kept in place for now. We will not be returning the threads at this time. If such a change is made you will be made aware.

That's it? That's the answer, and that's how you present it to the users here?

Classy. :tired:



What exactly is the rationale behind not preserving these threads in a locked/archived state? Do you realize how infuriating this is for users of this site, who could cling to the already-posted information in the hundreds of pages of those threads, as our only means for reference and support? ]

Why not offer a 7-10 day "grace period" so folks could download the text? (This would help counter the accusation that this move was "personal," since the thread deletion took place a few hours after the attachments were removed.)

One would think a thread with more than 1500 posts would be treated differently than, say, a thread with 15. One would think the interests of the users would be considered.

Sorry to say, I have lost all faith in the decision-makers around here. Complete and utter misdirection, all in the name of pride.

Good luck with that. :down:

Code Monkey
21 May 2006, 15:17
jump is no longer providing support for his mods so I don't know what you are expecting.

That's just another lie. Please stop trying to speak for me. I will have my hacks back up on the net soon and support will continue. It's vBORG that I will no longer support. I am not going to ask them to undo something I never asked them to do in the first place. The message from the staff here was clear, even if they didn't say the words. So I have to move on to better things.

Zachery
21 May 2006, 15:30
That's just another lie. Please stop trying to speak for me. I will have my hacks back up on the net soon and support will continue. It's vBORG that I will no longer support. I am not going to ask them to undo something I never asked them to do in the first place. The message from the staff here was clear, even if they didn't say the words. So I have to move on to better things.
Message from the staff?

I apologized a quite a few times for people taking some of the things I said the wrong way and will do so again if nessary. When I spoke about users being the lifeblood, I was refering to everyone here, not specificly coders, not specific non coders, everyone. There is a natural order in life that things come and go, while its a sad thing its also natural.

I will quote your exact words
Since it has been stated clearly that my presence and contributions here are of no significance to the continued existence and well being of this site. And that I may come or go without advantage or detriment to the whole. I have removed all my code contributions. Those that have my code already may continue to use them but you may not redistribute it or update it in any way. I retain copyright and may choose to offer it through another site.

I apologize for any blatant insignificance on my part. I’m quite confident, as was clearly stated by those that guide this community, that I will be replaced quickly by many more capable coders to follow.

Have a nice day To the staff this was taken as you are no longer providing support for your modifications here. We followed policy, if you'd like me to move your threads back so you can re attach your code please do so, be it a pm, email, etc.

Code Monkey
21 May 2006, 15:35
You never appologized, you said we missunderstood which is another insult in itself. But that's neither here nor there. You pounced on my hack threads ASAP because you wanted to. If what you had said earlier was not how the staff felt, you would have waited. Instead, you sent a clear signal. So I'm moving on, enough said. All you want to do is defend yourself when you were just plain wrong.

Laters

Chris M
21 May 2006, 15:37
To clear up any situation here, Zachery was not the moderator who removed your threads...

Also, to clarify, what was done is exactly what should have been done in regards to vBulletin.org policy...

Chris

Code Monkey
21 May 2006, 15:39
Policy is only used on those the staff doesn't want around. It doesn't matter who did it, you are all one. Please close this thread as it is pointless.

Zachery
21 May 2006, 15:41
Jump,

I have apologized now several times for it, and so has Erwin for me, my words were misunderstood and I also felt very bad about that. Ask anyone I went out of my way to talk to. Not only am I sorry that I offened people like that, I am truely sorry to the users I made suffer.

For the record, I was not the mod who removed your modifications.

Zachery
21 May 2006, 15:42
Policy is only used on those the staff doesn't want around. It doesn't matter who did it, you are all one. Please close this thread as it is pointless.
Every user here is treated the same :/ We apply the policies that are in place to all users fairly.

Chris M
21 May 2006, 15:42
Policy is only used on those the staff doesn't want around. It doesn't matter who did it, you are all one. Please close this thread as it is pointless.
For the record, you are not the only person to be affected by this policy...

And for the record, the staff are not one - We are individuals, and we make mistakes, agreed, but I believe this was not one...

Chris

Code Monkey
21 May 2006, 15:46
You were not missunderstood. Your words had one meaning. And the actions of the staff confirmed it. But if you want to go on and on with your "not me" crap then please continue. There is more to life than vBORG. My mods will survive without you and they will be better than ever.

Zachery
21 May 2006, 15:52
You were not missunderstood. Your words had one meaning. And the actions of the staff confirmed it. But if you want to go on and on with your "not me" crap then please continue. There is more to life than vBORG. My mods will survive without you and they will be better than ever.
Jump, please tell me that meaning?

I sat here, in this same chair, typing a message that one or two people (individuals, regardless of their community status) leaving is a sad event, however this event is a nessary part of life. This does not mean that these people ever were or are expendable.

Code Monkey
21 May 2006, 16:00
What you said was wrong, plain and simple, it cut straight to the heart of peoples desire to help here. If you are not man enough to admit it then you need fixing.

I am man enough to admit that removing my hacks was not the best thing to do, and when I came back to fix it they were gone. Policies are for everday events. When a community is in turmoil thoughtful actions are what is needed to stay the course. This is when policies make things worse.

When Marco decided to use policy to remove my hack threads, he made the conscious decision to confirm that what you had said was in fact, how the staff felt.

So, I move on. Please close this dead end thread.

Zachery
21 May 2006, 16:10
But what was my meaning jump, I want to know what you think I said. So I can apologize for it. I've already apologized on multiple ocasions for the words I said, for alot of reasons.

If you wish to move on, then I bid you farewell and i wish you the best wherever life takes you. I know you will be missed here.

Chris M
21 May 2006, 16:13
What you said was wrong, plain and simple, it cut straight to the heart of peoples desire to help here. If you are not man enough to admit it then you need fixing.

I am man enough to admit that removing my hacks was not the best thing to do, and when I came back to fix it they were gone. Policies are for everday events. When a community is in turmoil thoughtful actions are what is needed to stay the course. This is when policies make things worse.

When Marco decided to use policy to remove my hack threads, he made the conscious decision to confirm that what you had said was in fact, how the staff felt.

So, I move on. Please close this dead end thread.
He made a conscious decision to follow the policy, nothing more...

Chris

Code Monkey
21 May 2006, 16:16
The message is loud and clear. Goobye

Paul M
21 May 2006, 16:55
Goodbye JumpD.

You have, IMO, made the wrong choice, but I guess that's up to you. Good luck for the future. :)

Tralala
21 May 2006, 22:34
To the staff this was taken as you are no longer providing support for your modifications here.

Zachery, do you have any idea how many hack threads are here with no support whatsoever? Even in cases where support was promised at the start, the author just disappears into the ether, and their hacks languish with newbies bumping the thread incessantly... like zombies in the night... wondering WTF is going on. And yet those threads remain.

JumpD shared some stellar hacks and even impressive (and immediate) support. And his hacks were installed by hundreds of users here. Those threads contained thousands of posts that could help users (even in a locked state).


Okay so you have a brain-dead "policy." Perhaps some sort of "grace period" while tensions cooled would've been the WISE thing to invoke last week.


The course of action now places the burden on JumpD to "ask for his threads to be reinstated." This passes the buck, turns a personal conflict into a public ++++-swinging contest, and hurts the users of this site in the process.

Please answer this question: WHY exactly is this policy in place, and what needs to be done around here so the decision-makers can see that it's a stupid one? How can it be made more sensible, so you don't consistently snowball a small problem into a big one?

Is it really about "the author no longer providing support?" If so, that's the case for many, many hacks here (either explicitly, or eventually implied by the authors' disappearance.)

This is not a good policy for an intelligent community. Work toward changing it now, please.

Code Monkey
21 May 2006, 22:36
It's over bud. They don't care. I PM'd you where you can find support for now. I appreciate the support, but it's just over.

Tralala
21 May 2006, 22:37
I am man enough to admit that removing my hacks was not the best thing to do, and when I came back to fix it they were gone.

We ask "What's with JumpD's mods?"

Moderators, please read JumpD's statement above, and see what your "policy" has wrought. The users need to read this too, to understand the true chain of events. Had Marco waited more than a few hours to delete the legendary threads, this whole fiasco may have been avoided.

It's over bud. They don't care. I PM'd you where you can find support for now. I appreciate the support, but it's just over.

Message received, loud and clear. Ironic that a forum about running forums is run by a bunch of folks who can't tell their ass from their elbow. As a result, I'll cover my own, continue to learn independently, save threads as necessary, and make the relationships I need to take care of my own business.

What's happened around here is just downright pathetic.

Xenon
21 May 2006, 22:39
The policy has nothing to do with support itself, but as hackthreads where the actual hack has been removed are getting deleted, nothing more, nothing less.

That is the policy. I agree, that we may have to change that policy, but we won't do it now in a rush, just because one or two users beg to change it now. We have a priority list and will follow this list, this policy is on that list but not at the actual position.

I hope that this explains the process and that this discussion comes to an end now.

FASherman
22 May 2006, 01:12
The policy has nothing to do with support itself, but as hackthreads where the actual hack has been removed are getting deleted, nothing more, nothing less.

That is the policy. I agree, that we may have to change that policy, but we won't do it now in a rush, just because one or two users beg to change it now. We have a priority list and will follow this list, this policy is on that list but not at the actual position.

I hope that this explains the process and that this discussion comes to an end now.
Thats the kind of "both sides of the isssue" answer we've come to expect from politicians - and you can't afford that perception.

There is a reason politicians are nearly as despised as used car salesmen. If you emulate their behavior, then this site will end up having the same credibility.

What is so damned hard about admitting you made a mistake and fixing it without hiding behind stupid rules?

If the VB.Org staff works for me, I'd be firing the lot about now. Rules are no substitute for common sense and customer satisfaction.

Ramsesx
22 May 2006, 01:14
I don't understand the whole discussion about rules and policy. This is not a country, it's only a hack forum. All of you are nice people and everybody makes mistakes every day, that's life.
Put in the threads and files again and everything is sweet and nice.
There's always a way to bring it to a peaceful end.

Danny.VBT
22 May 2006, 01:51
We've decided not to change the policy right now because, as Xenon mention already, there is a priority list that we must follow. The staff restructure being the biggest thing right now. This policy has been put into affect since before I was a member here, and it has never caused a problem like this. I feel with the heat of all this change and commotion caused this problem to escalate more than it had too.

The admins have discussed what to do, and a "Hack Graveyard" may be put into affect once we have some things settled, and we can discuss the policy calmly and without any rush.

I am closing this thread, because it has served it's purpose. We have heard everyone opinions and suggestions, and we will have them in our minds when we discuss this again. :)