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JohnBee
19 May 2006, 13:10
When vBulletin becomes fully commercialized

It will mark the end of a great product.

While I realize that I am just a drop in a bucket, I have complete confidence that commercializing modifications on vb.org will mark the beginning of the end for a great product.

Although vBulletin is currently a leader in bulletin board technology, there are others not so far behind. The biggest appeal which prompted me to purchase and pay for vBulletin was entirely wrapped around this community and the open source style modifications it offered.

Although some people seem to think that mods will still come in free flavors afterwards, believe me that selling them will be the ultimate goal for every coder. The results will be the junk mods would be available and the useful ones will all fall under the eminent fee structure.

When this happens users will drop vBulletin in favor of alternate software’s who still support open source modification communities. It's a step backwards for vBulletin as a whole because it will stimulate focus on alternate products and we all know how easily things can change in this industry.

It's a shame to say the least that vb.org has taken this path.
This place was the reason I purchased a vBulletin license to begin with.

PS. I looked for another place to voice this but the topic was closed :surprised:

Marco van Herwaarden
19 May 2006, 13:15
Let me clarify 1 thing vBulletin.org is a place for free modifications, that is how it is now, and that is how it will stay. We will not be hosting any commercial modifications here.

As a small "gesture" towards those who have commercial products, we will in our current plans however implement a link directory, where authors can rent advertising space for their commercial work. The exact requirements to get listed and how we will implement this are not known yet.

amykhar
21 May 2006, 17:10
I don't think you need to worry that all coders will become commercial. I have no intention at this point of selling my mods. I have moved to a premium support model because of my time limitations, but if I write code, I generally share it for free. I don't plan on changing this. I will still share my code with my fellow coders here because that's part of the fun of writing the code.

Amy

Paul M
21 May 2006, 20:15
I don't charge for any of mine and never will - they are not 'big' enough to make that a viable option - nor do I have the time to provide commercial level support.

Zachariah
21 May 2006, 20:29
believe me that selling them will be the ultimate goal for every coder.
:hurt:

FASherman
21 May 2006, 21:00
Let the market bare what it will. I have no problem purchasing quality add-ons to vBulletin if they are worth the value. In the last week, I've purchased add-ons from vbSEO and The Geek without so much as a nanosecond of regret. IMHO, what I got was worth what I paid and was a hell of a lot easier than trying to develop it on my own.

Hacks are okay, but I like to have the option of going commercial for features that I consider critical.

Ntfu2
21 May 2006, 23:37
No, what everyone is going to be getting from there on out is a "lite version" of a hack, and telling pepole to upgrade to a full version for "x amount" to enable all the features

tehste
22 May 2006, 00:04
You pay for vBulletin. You don't pay for people to spend their time developing something for free and this site has never worked in an OpenSource way. There is a difference between OpenSource and VisibleSource.

Small hacks are released here by alot of coders who have larger commercial products. The reason I chose to go commercial with P3tz was because of the overwhelming amount of vb.org users who wanted immediate support for a free product. Alot of my time was wasted repeating the same stuff because a member "can't be bothered" to read through an X page thread.

You can't take, take, take. People say "well if it was good I'd donate". That isn't what happened for the 3 years I was here before P3tz.

hambil
22 May 2006, 01:09
We're not stupid. Good quality free hacks need to be released in order to drive business to this site, so we can sell our paid hacks. Not every hack is worth selling commercially, too. Plus, the higher support standards and the entry fee imposed by vb.org on paid hacks will likely be enough to keep most hacks out of the paid directory.

Freesteyelz
22 May 2006, 01:31
No one is implying anyone is stupid, hambil. :) As for the Paid Directory, are you implying that there will be a fee of some sort? Going one step further does this mean that vB.org is going commercial too?

Where I'm going with this I don't know...

amykhar
22 May 2006, 01:35
I'm hoping there's a fee. If people are going to make money off of this site, they should be paying Jelsoft for advertising space.

FASherman
22 May 2006, 01:40
I'm hoping there's a fee. If people are going to make money off of this site, they should be paying Jelsoft for advertising space.

Why? As has been stated ad nauseum this weekend, this is NOT a Jelsoft website. Or will this be another example of having it both ways?

amykhar
22 May 2006, 01:47
Um, no. I just think that if people are going to make money off the members here, then they need to be paying for that privilege. Just like I make people who run ad banners on my site pay for them.

And, since Jelsoft pays the hosting costs for the server, I just figured it was an approriate place for the money to go. For all I care, it could go to a good charity.

Amy

hambil
22 May 2006, 02:31
I certainly hope they charge a fee. Otherwise coders who put a lot of work into commercial hacks will have their work burried under what amounts to spam (IMHO).

Logikos
22 May 2006, 02:54
I would rather pay for something like this. Otherwise it would just be a spam forum. You need to be able to have some control over what is listed and what isn't.

FASherman
22 May 2006, 03:20
For all I care, it could go to a good charity.
One of the best ideas I've heard yet! :classic:

COBRAws
23 May 2006, 22:29
believe me that selling them will be the ultimate goal for every coder.

That is SO TRUE.

And I also say that I've boght hacks from coders present here @ vb.org because I think they worth it.

Freesteyelz
23 May 2006, 23:29
I'm certain there are coders who do not have that desire. First, the hacks have to have marketing value; secondly, the coders have to be business oriented; and third, requiring a fee to use the hacks will turn a hobby into work. Not all things have money attached to them.

peterska2
23 May 2006, 23:37
I'm certain there are coders who do not have that desire. First, the hacks have to have marketing value; secondly, the coders have to be business oriented; and third, requiring a fee to use the hacks will turn a hobby into work. Not all things have money attached to them.

and fourth, it means having tax related concerns and such.

Ntfu2
23 May 2006, 23:50
And would also(well hopefully) require that the hack be 100% supported for each and every uses problems (not saying they arent now, but you have to admit, there are some here that are just posted and left)

Paul M
24 May 2006, 01:54
That is SO TRUE.No it isn't. 90% of my hacks were written specifically for Cable Forum. They are released here so other people can use them. They are not written to make money, nor is that my aim. I have no desire to subject myself to the hassles that come with selling vb mods/hacks/whatever.

Adrian Schneider
24 May 2006, 01:59
And would also(well hopefully) require that the hack be 100% supported for each and every uses problems (not saying they arent now, but you have to admit, there are some here that are just posted and left)
Just another spin on it... if they do it as a hobby, it should remain a hobby, right? Would supporting hundreds of users (many of which should just read the FAQ and solve their own problems) be the fun and good time you hoped for? God no. The second it becomes "work", it should be treated as work.

I for one won't release anything major here for that reason. I enjoy coding, but I don't have time to support releases, and I will just be letting people down; so instead, I will my give my products/support to those who can compensate me for it.

I have great respect for the people who can be patient enough to do this (or have enough time). Not everyone can though. Wanting money isn't always a bad thing; it pays the bills. The warm-fuzzy feeling doesn't. People need to pay bills.

I am disgusted by this thread. People are releasing things from the goodness of their heart, and are being overwhelmed by the demand for more, and to make matters worse: lack of respect. Remember one thing: you paid for vBulletin. Not the coders. We are a plus, one that has been taken for granted lately. We are customers... just like you. If you want the community to continue to thrive, you must become part of it.

--

Anyway, back on topic. If vB.org does implement a paid hack directory, there are a few things that I'd like to see:

-A reasonable fee (I'd rather it be high than low!)
-Hosted support forums
-A bug tracker
-User feedback

This would be for the user-end of course, they don't want to be signing up on 100 boards to receive support. This is supposed to be the ultimate vB resource, so let's make it one. I won't be too concerned if we never implement this, but if we do, let's make it count.

Oh and, to charity! :)

Marco van Herwaarden
24 May 2006, 08:42
I doubt it will be more then an advertisement list.

I don't think we will ever host support forums or bug trackers. That is something the coder must provide if he wants to run a business.

amykhar
24 May 2006, 12:26
Thank you for your comments Adrian. It's nice to see somebody who gets it.

jward
24 May 2006, 16:28
Let me clarify 1 thing vBulletin.org is a place for free modifications, that is how it is now, and that is how it will stay. We will not be hosting any commercial modifications here.

As a small "gesture" towards those who have commercial products, we will in our current plans however implement a link directory, where authors can rent advertising space for their commercial work. The exact requirements to get listed and how we will implement this are not known yet.

Do you have an ETA on this Marco? Any idea on the format, etc?

Ntfu2
24 May 2006, 16:41
Just another spin on it... if they do it as a hobby, it should remain a hobby, right? Would supporting hundreds of users (many of which should just read the FAQ and solve their own problems) be the fun and good time you hoped for? God no. The second it becomes "work", it should be treated as work.


I think my comment may have been taken the wrong way. As it stands now (free) i think there should be 0 responsibility for coders to support their hacks if they do not want to or dont have time to, releasing them is gratitude enough IMO

Once there are paid hacks though, for them to be on vB.org i beleive they should have to support them 100% of the time for each and every user that requires it. This is also when it becomes more then a hobby.

Ohiosweetheart
24 May 2006, 18:02
Let the market bare what it will. I have no problem purchasing quality add-ons to vBulletin if they are worth the value. In the last week, I've purchased add-ons from vbSEO and The Geek without so much as a nanosecond of regret. IMHO, what I got was worth what I paid and was a hell of a lot easier than trying to develop it on my own.

Hacks are okay, but I like to have the option of going commercial for features that I consider critical.

I don't have a problem paying for a quality add-ons either...... if I could afford them. However, being a divorced mom of 2 who barely makes it from paycheck to paycheck, that simply isn't possible. And trust me, there are alot of people out there who live on a very tight budget with the economy and gas prices being what they are right now.

So, this being the case, many of us would have to do without, due to circumstances beyond our control? hmmmmmmmmmm...

No it isn't. 90% of my hacks were written specifically for Cable Forum. They are released here so other people can use them. They are not written to make money, nor is that my aim. I have no desire to subject myself to the hassles that come with selling vb mods/hacks/whatever.

I'm in love with this man! ^

amykhar
24 May 2006, 19:33
I think everybody has financial priorities. I would love to have a new freezer in my home, but don't have money for it. I don't expect somebody to give it to me for free though.

And, if somebody were to offer me a free one, I certainly wouldn't expect them to help me install it, use it, or repair it if it broke.

That said, most of us code for ourselves. And, since we've done it anyway, we share with the rest of you. That won't change if paid mods are offered here. But, the sheer number of you guys now make supporting all the free stuff prohibitive. So, keep that in mind when it comes to the freebies. It's a free freezer. After that, you're on your own. :D

Ntfu2
24 May 2006, 19:36
....

And, if somebody were to offer me a free one, I certainly wouldn't expect them to help me install it, use it, or repair it if it broke.

.... It's a free freezer. After that, you're on your own. :D


How do you come up with such good analogies :D

amykhar
24 May 2006, 19:38
Lots of practice :D

GamerzWorld
24 May 2006, 20:00
So let me get this right, commercial hacks will be asked to pay for advertising space further increasing there price? This is supposidley the ultimate vbulletin source, I would expect to be able to find both paid and unpaid hack links..

Eikinskjaldi
24 May 2006, 20:24
Generally yes that would make sense, but I also see the stand point that if you have to pay to get the link then you will not pay the price for every random useless hack, but ones rather that are really worth the price you have to pay to sell it to others, sort of like a quality control. So personally id rather see it as a pay to display type area.

Freesteyelz
24 May 2006, 23:41
And, if somebody were to offer me a free one, I certainly wouldn't expect them to help me install it, use it, or repair it if it broke.


Interesting freezer analogy. :)

Not everyone will make that assumption with hacks. In fact, I'll go one step further and suggest that most users expect support to be given by the authors. People will have questions regardless of what the author states and it shouldn't stop other people from helping if they can.

Now there is a (supported) checkbox for authors to click but it simply does not grab the attention of the users. Would it be practical for hacks to be separated into 2 categories: Supported and Non-Supported? A second suggestion is an agreement that must be clicked by the users before they have access to non-supported hacks. These are just two examples.

0ptima
25 May 2006, 00:38
I would rather pay for something like this. Otherwise it would just be a spam forum. You need to be able to have some control over what is listed and what isn't.

This is a good idea....

Mr Chad
25 May 2006, 01:32
When vBulletin becomes fully commercialized

It will mark the end of a great product.

While I realize that I am just a drop in a bucket, I have complete confidence that commercializing modifications on vb.org will mark the beginning of the end for a great product.

Although vBulletin is currently a leader in bulletin board technology, there are others not so far behind. The biggest appeal which prompted me to purchase and pay for vBulletin was entirely wrapped around this community and the open source style modifications it offered.

Although some people seem to think that mods will still come in free flavors afterwards, believe me that selling them will be the ultimate goal for every coder. The results will be the junk mods would be available and the useful ones will all fall under the eminent fee structure.

When this happens users will drop vBulletin in favor of alternate software’s who still support open source modification communities. It's a step backwards for vBulletin as a whole because it will stimulate focus on alternate products and we all know how easily things can change in this industry.

It's a shame to say the least that vb.org has taken this path.
This place was the reason I purchased a vBulletin license to begin with.

PS. I looked for another place to voice this but the topic was closed :surprised:
Before I was licensed, I was browsing VB.org. It looked like a great community, with a bunch of new mods every day. That is what made VB so attractive. If they make it all PAY then :/.

FASherman
25 May 2006, 01:53
Generally yes that would make sense, but I also see the stand point that if you have to pay to get the link then you will not pay the price for every random useless hack, but ones rather that are really worth the price you have to pay to sell it to others, sort of like a quality control. So personally id rather see it as a pay to display type area.
I see no problem with that, so long as its a two-tier pricing model. Developers that release and support lite versions of their paid products here should get reduced advertising rates as a recognition of their continued support of the community.

Those that are strictly focused on developing and marketing paid products - and I have no problem with that - should pay a higher rate. We are nothing more than a target market to them.

COBRAws
25 May 2006, 02:20
No it isn't. 90% of my hacks were written specifically for Cable Forum. They are released here so other people can use them. They are not written to make money, nor is that my aim. I have no desire to subject myself to the hassles that come with selling vb mods/hacks/whatever.
Actually I hited the Post Reply too quickly. I've should said that most of "coders" would end up selling their hacks.

I know that a lot of them wont do it, but a lot more will like to make profit out of it.

sorry for my english

Adrian Schneider
25 May 2006, 02:37
Once there are paid hacks though, for them to be on vB.org i beleive they should have to support them 100% of the time for each and every user that requires it. This is also when it becomes more then a hobby.Of course.

I don't think we will ever host support forums or bug trackers. That is something the coder must provide if he wants to run a business.Understandable, I am just looking at this from the user perspective. As an (ex) user, I would love to see full support and bug tracking (which IS now [poorly] done in threads). As a developer, I could care less where it is. The odds are I would have a site already... Again, the ultimate vBulletin resource should be the ultimate vBulletin resource. I will respect the decision either way though, and to be honest: I feel this site has been run well during the time I was here.

Before I was licensed, I was browsing VB.org. It looked like a great community, with a bunch of new mods every day. That is what made VB so attractive. If they make it all PAY then :/.Small to medium-sized mods will almost all remain free, or else there is no point in someone buying it because someone can quickly remake a free version. Unfortunately, with larger mods, people can only give so much before they want something in return. Bastards. ;)

This is a community; we should be sharing, not just taking. I may be a little bit of a hypocrite, having released only two minor modifications here, but I will always take the time to help others.


My advice to many of you who are slightly disappointed:
Learn. I did. Many others here did. I was once a noobie asking for help with even the simplest things, but after a little practice I was able to learn to do things myself. Nearly two years later I am coding in all my spare time and still loving it. If you have the time, go for it, and I bet you won't regret it. You may even end up helping others here, continuing the cycle.

To anyone who has helped me in the past: I thank you.

theArchitect
25 May 2006, 02:57
As I see it, "free" modifications are very important as many, if not most, communities don't exactly turn a profit and some don't make any money at all. So their Admins don't have piles of cash to throw into development.

Having said that, if a person is going to charge for their hack, then I feel it is only reasonable that they should kick back some of that money into the ongoing costs of running vBorg. If I sell something on EBay they get a cut, why should vBorg be any different?

Battle_Ring
25 May 2006, 03:06
its just like cubecart the shoppign cart system most of the good add ons are commercial now

antialiasis
26 May 2006, 03:43
Personally, I created all my hacks for my own forums, and I may have a lot of time on my hands, but I actually enjoy posting them here for free, giving support for them, getting comments and upgrading them with more features. I'm very much of a beginner at this thing, so I need the practice and criticism, anyway.

Why are you worrying about vB.org becoming fully commercialized? I think there will always be plenty of codes who just do it for their own purposes and think they might as well post it here. Not everybody would charge for their work if they did it primarily for themselves.

Dr.Viggy
26 May 2006, 04:42
I think my comment may have been taken the wrong way. As it stands now (free) i think there should be 0 responsibility for coders to support their hacks if they do not want to or dont have time to, releasing them is gratitude enough IMO

Once there are paid hacks though, for them to be on vB.org i beleive they should have to support them 100% of the time for each and every user that requires it. This is also when it becomes more then a hobby.
i can only say that i agree with half of this. i think that even a free hack should be at least partially supported. if a coder releases something i think in good faith they should lend a hand to help some of us newbies that are still learning get it implemented. releasing a product that has bugs brings a certain responsibility of the author.

however, once it goes beyond that and into a legitimate support issue or for a major modification i see no reason why the author can't make money off of it, but as amy and others said, if they're gonna make money and treat it like a business then they should be treated the same way and that brings in the fee. you can't post here for free and then make money. pay to put your "business" on display. you're making money and you're supporting your mods. everyone winds up happen. the author gets the cash, the user gets the support and vb.org gets the money for allowing it all to happen (which i agree some should go to jelsoft).

ok so i'm long winded. i know this. i just think there's been alot of extremes said here and only a few see the gray area or the proverbial middle ground. i think partial commercialization can work and work well if done correctly.

Adrian Schneider
26 May 2006, 05:00
One of the gray areas is definitely support... Here are my views if a hack becomes popular and the author can no longer handle the workload:

If the hack IS supported
The author should do one of the following:

Quit his job and support it to keep everyone happy.

Start charging money to give quality support to the people who need it.

Try to recruit some helpers to help support it.
Abandon the hack. It is too much work.All of those are decent solutions, depending on your position. Hopefully you picked up on the sarcasm on 1.

However, under no circumstances, should a free hack become a paid hack. Support is one issue, but if the entire script becomes commercialized, it is betrayal.

I would hope that in the case of the author being overwhelmed, and peoples' boards are down due to bugs, the author would allow others to help, or the staff put some kind of warning up saying there are many known bugs and it isn't safe at this point.

Also, (hopefully a staff member can fill me in on this), if a hack is abandoned, do you go in and untick the supported field?

If the hack is NOT supported
The user downloaded it knowing (his own fault if he didn't see the supported box unticked) that it is unsupported. It is not the authors resonsibility.

Logikos
26 May 2006, 08:16
I'm sure this has already be said, but most hacks here are not big enough to be considered a commerical hack. That all depends on the demand of support and code really. If you have a huge hack that 1000's of users will use, then you could consider having a commerical site for that hack because the demand in support is to much for a simple thread to handle.

I've always seen alot of users going commerical to make a few quick bucks, but really if you ever want to go commerical with your hack. You should ask yourself a few questions....

1. Will 1000's of users use this hack?
2. How far can I really extend this hack?
3. Will the support for this hack really be to overwhelming for a thread to handle
4. Does my hack really have enough code to be marked as a commerical product

This is mainly why I've never opened a commerical site for my hacks. I havn't really created anything I would really consider to be a commerical product. I simply enjoy coding, it's fun and a great learning experiance.

I could understand why one would open such a site because of the demand of individual support that is required. TheGeek is a perfect example, he doesn't charge users for the code and the features the product comes with. He charges a small fee for greate individual support. ;)

Anyway, thats just my $0.02. :p

Revan
26 May 2006, 09:31
However, under no circumstances, should a free hack become a paid hack. Support is one issue, but if the entire script becomes commercialized, it is betrayal.So lemme get this straight; you would rather see a hack be abandoned due to [insert reason] than to see it go from free to paid? :confused:

Adrian Schneider
26 May 2006, 21:49
So lemme get this straight; you would rather see a hack be abandoned due to [insert reason] than to see it go from free to paid? :confused:
If users end up having to remove or pay for the hack when they originally downloaded it for free, yes. If he is unable to support it though, charging for premium support is okay with me.

Revan
26 May 2006, 23:03
If users end up having to remove or pay for the hack when they originally downloaded it for free, yes. If he is unable to support it though, charging for premium support is okay with me.Well I would assume users would be free to use the current version they are running and make modifications for their own site for free.
I don't see how anyone could remove their hack and make hacks paid retroactively either :confused:

Adrian Schneider
26 May 2006, 23:45
Talent, I suppose... lol