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TeaTree
19 May 2006, 15:38
Right,

I am starting to get a little peeved.This has nothing to do with vb.org staff, apart from the user Chris M.

Recently, i've had a couple of problems.One was that I needed some support on a mod from a member who shall remain nameless.I PM'd that user, and after 3 days I did not get a reply, even though the user had been on numerous times. So, I PM'd the user again and got a reply that said that they do not have time to help others with support for their hacks. Okay, I was a little peeved off but I took it-What annoyed me more then not getting the support I requested, but just being blatantly ignored until i had to send another PM. Anyway, I was going to ignore this matter until the day before yesterday

I had a general question about vbulletin.org which involved releasing one of my modifications, so I decided to PM Chris M, who I thought was a staff member that enjoyed helping others. Obviously again I was wrong, as I have not had a reply since then even though again this user is always on and has been on frequently since.

The point I am trying to put accross here is how can people learn without getting support from someone that can give it? I'm sure that they've had to have some help in their time, so why not help the next upcomimg members?

Now, there is all these threads from coders and staff how vbulletin.org is failing, and most are directed at the administrators. Really, I feel that it is the actual coders and moderators that are starting to make it fall down hill! All it would have taken was 2 minutes of their time for a simple reply, instead I just got ignored which I find very very rude, I wouldn't even have minded if they just sent a reply saying they do not have enough time anymore to be of assistance! So, before people start giving this bullshit having a go at admin's, they should take a look at themselves. Treat people like you'd like to be treated.

Now, This is definetly not everyone. Some generally want to help vbulletin.org get better. Xenon as an admin has definetly helped me in the past, as has Paul M as a coder.These are great people who deserve to be listened to, as well as many others. Some just need to buck up their ideas and let the staff do their jobs

Please let me just say again how this is not everyone-Some give all they have got to vbulletin.org and to them I am truly grateful-

Thanks

Boofo
19 May 2006, 15:49
I would like to apologize for what happened. We are working to correct things like this from happening in the future. And you are right, we all were at the beginning stage at one time. It's just that some of us don't like to remember that.

If you have any coding questions or any other questions for that matter, feel free to contact me either here on the site or in PM, and I will do whatever I can to help you.

hambil
19 May 2006, 16:02
I think I've mentioned this before, as have possibly others, but I think NeighHorse09's problem underscores some technical issues with the site, not just 'attitude problems'.

It is difficult to find support questions. I got so tired of sifting through threads that my tactic now is to search for posts with 0 replies and those are the only ones I answer.

I hope that the coder staff and the support staff can work together to improve this. I am willing to donate my time and skills to help develop or just contribute to the design of a better support system.

I want to help people, but it's actually harder than you might think due to volume of requests and lack of structure.

Also, out of curiosity, did the hack you asked for support on have the 'supported' box checked?

ericgtr
19 May 2006, 16:25
Aside from personal differences here, this can and will happen with some modifications. Sometimes people give up on them for one reason or another, the best we can hope is that they alert us of it by unchecking the supported box. As mentioned, there are a lot of requests for support.

However, I don't believe it's necessarily a moderators job to support other people's modifications and IMO that's expecting way more from them than their normal duties. I realize there have been some management issues going on here lately but they have takent their share of licks from everyone in this forum lately and most of the replies over the last week have been bending over backwards for the community.

All the threads that have been started in this forum have remained open for the bashing of staff. I can see the frustration a lot of the members (and staff) feel on this site but a lot of other sites would be closing them up and running much tighter moderation.

Straying back to the original comments made here, I can sympathize (and have been there myself) but there are always going to be instances where support completely drops for something where others don't want to pick it up. It's frustrating and unfortunate but will always happen.

MPDev
19 May 2006, 16:32
In general, I would prefer that users ask for support in the thread which the mod is stored; why? you might ask. Well, others can then benefit from the help, others may have an answer and the user could get a faster answer and I really don't consider "support" on a free modification to be one-on-one kind of thing. Waiting for a reply from me for a question which has already been addressed or can be addressed by the community faster only increases the chances that you will be disappointed.

2 minutes for every PM can add up if every user felt that their question needed to be handled by PMs.

Why not just ask your question in the thread?

noppid
19 May 2006, 16:49
In general, I would prefer that users ask for support in the thread which the mod is stored; why? you might ask. Well, others can then benefit from the help, others may have an answer and the user could get a faster answer and I really don't consider "support" on a free modification to be one-on-one kind of thing. Waiting for a reply from me for a question which has already been addressed or can be addressed by the community faster only increases the chances that you will be disappointed.

2 minutes for every PM can add up if every user felt that their question needed to be handled by PMs.

Why not just ask your question in the thread?

A PM for support is selfish. It wastes time and it contributes nothing to the thread. If we answer and later someone else has the same problem, "We" have to do the support again.

There is no argument someone looking for help can use to justify trying to get free support personally that should reflect badly on a coder.

This thread is one of the reasons why the coders around here feel unappreciated. People whining because they didn't get free personal attention.

The spirit of the org is supposed to be, here's a starting point, run with it. NOT, coders are here for you to use as free labor as you learn to code or build a business.

The org is not the only place to learn to code. Stop putting that on these folks shoulders like it is and you are entitled. There are no guarantees here either, never will be. Not for support, not for quality.

Can any of you get the idea that charity begins at home?

hambil
19 May 2006, 16:57
A PM for support is selfish. It wastes time and it contributes nothing to the thread. If we answer and later someone else has the same problem, "We" have to do the support again.?
Nobody has ever pm'd me for support on one of my mods. If they did I would politely ask them to post in the hack thread so others can benifit from the solution. I would not just ignore them.

I get an email whenever someone pm's me, or posts in one of my threads, and unless I'm away from my computer I usually respond immediately - even if just to say "I can't get to this right now but I will look into it when I have some time."

Paul M
19 May 2006, 17:14
I get a number of PM'about support, I generally reply asking the person to post in the thread as it's much more sensible to do all support questions where everyone can see them.

Ntfu2
19 May 2006, 17:18
A PM for support is selfish. It wastes time and it contributes nothing to the thread. If we answer and later someone else has the same problem, "We" have to do the support again.

There is no argument someone looking for help can use to justify trying to get free support personally that should reflect badly on a coder.

This thread is one of the reasons why the coders around here feel unappreciated. People whining because they didn't get free personal attention.

The spirit of the org is supposed to be, here's a starting point, run with it. NOT, coders are here for you to use as free labor as you learn to code or build a business.

The org is not the only place to learn to code. Stop putting that on these folks shoulders like it is and you are entitled. There are no guarantees here either, never will be. Not for support, not for quality.

Can any of you get the idea that charity begins at home?


In general, I would prefer that users ask for support in the thread which the mod is stored; why? you might ask. Well, others can then benefit from the help, others may have an answer and the user could get a faster answer and I really don't consider "support" on a free modification to be one-on-one kind of thing. Waiting for a reply from me for a question which has already been addressed or can be addressed by the community faster only increases the chances that you will be disappointed.

2 minutes for every PM can add up if every user felt that their question needed to be handled by PMs.

Why not just ask your question in the thread?


What these guys said

and

Alot, of coders refuse to answer support PMs, getting all mad and stuff because someone wouldnt have a nice 1 on 1 support session with you for something that is probably user error to begin with is assine.

noppid
19 May 2006, 17:22
Nobody has ever pm'd me for support on one of my mods. If they did I would politely ask them to post in the hack thread so others can benifit from the solution. I would not just ignore them.

I get an email whenever someone pm's me, or posts in one of my threads, and unless I'm away from my computer I usually respond immediately - even if just to say "I can't get to this right now but I will look into it when I have some time."

Wait till your have 5 or more in your box every visit and get back to me. I can appreciate your point of view now, I was once that way too. But I do have other responsibilities.

My ability to hang out and support every request I get has decreased propotionatly to how my responsibilities have grown. I got in this business for a reason. When I started I had more free time. Now my time is spent making sure I have an income primarilly. I have to eat ya know. Seed money only goes so far and then your have to actually succeed.

I dunno if you can call what I have success, but it pays the bills. That's got to be my priority now and thus, sometimes there just isn't time to help. Then it gets to be overwhelming. It happenes here on a regular cycle. Some of the names are historical.

I may not seem like it to most, but it's a sign of their success that they had to move on. I saw someone say so eloquently in another thread, please be sure to thank them and wish them well as they exit. That's a good idea IMO.

I hope you have that or get it. I'm sure trying my best.

Here's a thought for those that are here and will come here. Embarace the code, not the coder. Surely you should appreciate the coder, however the code is why you are here, face it.

Get involved in the code. Answer the questions about the hack you can,save the coder 5 minutes. Learn the hack. read the instructions, read um again. Test the features, even if it's one you think you won't use. Post in the hack thread, thank the author. Click install. Now do it all again.

Most of the problems here lie in the sense of entitlement that this is the place to come for finished products. That may be the case in some instances, but it's not what the org is.

The org is, IMO, a place for ideas. A place to learn. These things occur by participation and desire.

This place has turned into a glorified free downloads site for vBulletin owners. When there is no participation other then a few folks that can make the time to provide help and publish hacks, thing can stagnate. It's not fair to make demands on them though or you wind up with ticked off coders.

Things have to open up more in the free hack world too. I'm guilty of this, but I regconize that the attitude we own a hack and are the only coder stiffles development. To post a hack here it should be open source and branches allowed. In fact branches should be encouraged with the original work referenced.

Until an open source feel is created, development ideas and implemented ideas will continue to be guided by a select few and there will be no incentive for others to learn to code if they can't use the existing code base to learn from by example.

So, what do we have here, a showcase for egotistical coders or a basis for ideas coded for vBulletin enhancement that are free to take and run with in the name of community development?

The Geek
19 May 2006, 17:33
Its just as easy to return the PM requesting they post in the thread. Most 'seasoned' (with salt) users don't use a PM unless its urgent as they can see that support is a community concept.
Saying that, you can't expect everyone to be physic and already know that. Generally cutting them some slack is usually enough.

On that note, I have ignored PMs before simply because I didn't have the time to respond. They most likely thought I was a right ass. Then again. I suppose on some level I am :)

Everyone just needs to cut everyone else some slack and realise we all have lives (well, you guys do. I'm still working on that one). It's my next release: Geek Excellent Life Getter (or GELG for a short, punchy, clique' 'in the know' acronym). Sadly it will only be a commercial enhancement. So there.

noppid
19 May 2006, 17:40
On that note, I have ignored PMs before simply because I didn't have the time to respond. They most likely thought I was a right ass. Then again. I suppose on some level I am :)



Yeah, my most common instance to have to ignore PM's is when I'm knee deep in code and need to reference the API threads. They should be at .com IMO. But that's another story.

The flashing PM hack here is about the most annoying feature/hack in existance! So what ultimately happens is I mass click mark as read to shut of the flasher and the pms are forgotten about. :tired:

The Geek
19 May 2006, 17:47
Actually, that is a good point. I do loathe the falshing PM thing here. It makes it a lot harder to ignore it :)

TeaTree
19 May 2006, 17:51
In general, I would prefer that users ask for support in the thread which the mod is stored; why? you might ask. Well, others can then benefit from the help, others may have an answer and the user could get a faster answer and I really don't consider "support" on a free modification to be one-on-one kind of thing. Waiting for a reply from me for a question which has already been addressed or can be addressed by the community faster only increases the chances that you will be disappointed.

2 minutes for every PM can add up if every user felt that their question needed to be handled by PMs.

Why not just ask your question in the thread?

The problem that I have is that this is one of the only forums that get replies to threads in.If you look at un-answered threads, there's over 20 pages. I have asked in threads and they also get ignored. If a user is that ignorant, it doesn't really matter where you ask them.

May I also add that this is NOT a bash at the staff. I have said above how the admin's are very helpful. This is more of a thread that is where I am almost backing up the staff, in the case that some members need to do their own bit to improve vbulletin.org

Also, one of the PM's was to a moderator and was about vbulletin.org, not an actual modification

Thanks

Rich
19 May 2006, 19:20
One of the things I brought up before was that a lot of users feel they are entitled to getting a response from the users here. I placed 2 users on ignore today because of how they responded to their lack of responses to their questions.

Everyone here that donates their time to answer questions is doing just that, they are "donating" THEIR time. If they don't have the time to answer every question sent to them, its pretty tough to get mad at them as they don't owe anyone here a thing. If they do respond and give someone an answer you better be damned sure you send them a sincere thank you.

I think the staff here should explain how this site works in an auto pm to new users so they understand that they are not entitled to support and that questions pertaining to specific modifications should be addressed in that release thread. This may help everyone understand how this site actually functions.

smacklan
19 May 2006, 19:30
Everyone here that donates their time to answer questions is doing just that, they are "donating" THEIR time. If they don't have the time to answer every question sent to them, its pretty tough to get mad at them as they don't owe anyone here a thing. If they do respond and give someone an answer you better be damned sure you send them a sincere thank you.

This is typical of the "attitude" I spoke of in the User Titles thread. All I've been hearing lately is "this site would die and be nothing if it weren't for the coders. Our stuff keeps this site alive...and we better be appreciated and bowed to". Well I have a news flash for you...if you are going to put something out there for someone to use, you absolutely have an obligation to support the potential problems you may cause someone's board. There are plenty of hacks published here that are nothing more than beta's and cause all kind of problems. If many of you were to try to develop your hacks into a business you would fail miserably within a short period of time with the attitude's I see on display here...it's shameful really.

Rich
19 May 2006, 19:39
Why did you bother to quote what I wrote to post what you did seeing as they having nothing to do with one another? The first thing you need to realize is that every modification installed from this site is being installed by the user. If you choose to install a modification from this site, you are accepting any and all responsibility of what could happen to your site. That includes if a modification breaks something. That has been posted more times than I can remember on this site.

Most of the modifications on this site are added because a user created it for themself and then offers it to the community. Others come from requests. No one on this site is "obligated" to give support for their mods. Thats why their is an option when releasing a mod to choose whether or not the author will support it. If an author chooses not to support a mod, and you anticipate support, you are wasting your time. If an author says they will be supporting their mod and then fails to comply, guess what, they are entitled to do that.

Comparing free mods from this site to a paid for modification is unrealistic bud. When you buy something, you are normally paying for the support that comes with it unless you are notified prior to the purchase. These modifications are free. They don't come with support as a standard.

Now Betas are completely different. If you can't debug code, you shouldn't be installing a beta modification. Problems are expected with betas and they are released as such to help find them and debug them. Again, you are installing them at your own discretion. if it breaks your board, then you either need to fix it, report it in the beta thread, or uninstall it and wait for it to be released out of beta.

THATS where users are getting confused on this site. They feel they are entitled to the support of the mod authors. It isn't guaranteed and neither are any of the mods on this site.

smacklan
19 May 2006, 19:51
but why should anyone be made to feel as though they should have to kiss *** and lick boot when someone posts a few lines of code and are then troubled to answer questions about it? Thats what I'm talking about.

MPDev
19 May 2006, 19:56
If everyone had an obligation to support their work and had the expectation to answer every question, then I would suspect there would be alot less Mods posted.

Sometimes a mod is just a framework to get someone started on something they want to do - there is no implied contract here, when you post something, you can either support it or choose not to.

Rich
19 May 2006, 19:57
Its not like that across this entire site. Run my name for instance. Look at all of the questions I have tried to help with. There are tons of people willing to help on this site but there are even more users that feel they are entitled to it and if its not there, well then the hell with whichever person they tried to get support from.

I have one mod released and it is as basic as they come. I am by far a coder like some of the users are on this site. I have yet to kiss anyones ass or lick boot to get support. I will ask a question and sometimes it gets answered, sometimes it doesn't. The complexity of the questions being asked dicatates who can/will answer them. If some of us, like myself, don't have the knowledge to answer a specific question, I obviously wouldn't be able to help with the question.

Since a majority of problems with mods are pretty complex, they can only be answered by the coders that actually understand the question in the first place. lol

If you read through all of the posts on this site during a 24 hopur period, you will find tons of people answering questions, several users complaining about the lack of support, and lots of humor and unanswered questions. It doesn't mean no one is willing to answer them, it means no one qualified to answer it is available or has the time/ energy to get into it.

smacklan
19 May 2006, 20:01
I understand and agree with that assessment to a certain extent. I suppose I'm refering to a more pervasive tone I see on the site in these threads in the Suggestions forum that comes across as how I described earlier. I suppose I will hold my thoughts to myself until I walk a mile in some others shoes.

MPDev
19 May 2006, 20:06
On a serious note, I try to be helpful with the mods I post in the time I have available. If I can answer questions, I will gladly do so. There have been items I have not posted to the site for the very reason that I don't want to be hounded by people needing support - I try to keep my posted mods to the simple stuff I do. Even something like my Graffiti Wall resulted in over 100 PMs from people wanting me to install/configure or otherwise debug their GD/TTF installations on their servers.

Don't take it personally if someone doesn't respond; if they can or want to, they will.

Danny.VBT
19 May 2006, 20:13
I'm sure Chris meant no disrespect in not replying to your PMs. Staff members usually get a handful of PM's everyday. It can be very easy to accidently skip one or to get frustrated over the amount of PMs.

As the majority have noted, Support usually isn't given via the private message system. If you want to get support, posting in the forums is the way to go. Also, it will help other members who have the same problems, get the solution easily.

There are times when threads aren't getting the attention they deserve. We hope that the Staff restructure will help solve this problem. (As you can probably tell there are some new staff members that have posted in this thread).

TeaTree
19 May 2006, 20:15
This is typical of the "attitude" I spoke of in the User Titles thread. All I've been hearing lately is "this site would die and be nothing if it weren't for the coders. Our stuff keeps this site alive...and we better be appreciated and bowed to". Well I have a news flash for you...if you are going to put something out there for someone to use, you absolutely have an obligation to support the potential problems you may cause someone's board. There are plenty of hacks published here that are nothing more than beta's and cause all kind of problems. If many of you were to try to develop your hacks into a business you would fail miserably within a short period of time with the attitude's I see on display here...it's shameful really.

Agreed
It takes nothing for a simple reply to say post in the modification thread please, instead of simply ignoring it which is very rude-Surely moderators should also lead an example and are there to answer others questions about the forum?

EDIT: Danny's post has pretty much sorted it, thanks

MPDev
19 May 2006, 22:23
More often than not, even a "simple" message gets misinterperted. When tring to be brief, some read it as being "short" or "rude". If you don't give the person what they want, then it's a no-win.

Freesteyelz
20 May 2006, 04:09
Sometimes a mod is just a framework to get someone started on something they want to do - there is no implied contract here, when you post something, you can either support it or choose not to.

Then wouldn't this be considered a "work in progress" rather than a "mod release"?

MPDev
20 May 2006, 12:04
Are they not both the same on this site? Almost all mods on here are works in progress. The point is when you put some code out there most people will do their best to support it when they have time, the expectation of support is something that users have to adjust their thinking on.

Look what happened when someone decided they didn't want to share their mods anymore - he took them down and there was a flood of 'put it back' posts here in this forum. There were even suggestions that the mods should be put back in place regardless of the writers decision.

Would you prefer that only be allowed (or posted) on the site with the understanding that the author is obligated to support it?

Freesteyelz
21 May 2006, 03:16
In an ideal setup I'd expect authors to support their mods in the Release forums. It's not always that simple, however. The reality is that not every author will click the Support option for whatever reason. Users don't care as long as the mod works. When it doesn't then what?

I think the mod threads should distinguish between the supported full/beta mods and unsupported ones. The check box doesn't stand out right now. I'd even go one step further and suggest that two forums are to be created: Forum 1 (Supported Mods) and Forum 2 (Unsupported Mods).

Paul M
21 May 2006, 12:30
Well I have a news flash for you...if you are going to put something out there for someone to use, you absolutely have an obligation to support the potential problems you may cause someone's board. Sorry, but that's just not true - this is a place to share hacks that people have written, free of charge - but you install them at your own risk - there is no obligation for people to support them.

Many do (on their own free time) but it is not your right to get support for something given to you, and that you have the choice not to use. They day that happens will be the day most hacks get pulled (I support mine voluntarily, but the day it becomes a requirement will be the day mine are removed).

Chris M
21 May 2006, 14:26
Right,

I am starting to get a little peeved.This has nothing to do with vb.org staff, apart from the user Chris M.

Recently, i've had a couple of problems.One was that I needed some support on a mod from a member who shall remain nameless.I PM'd that user, and after 3 days I did not get a reply, even though the user had been on numerous times. So, I PM'd the user again and got a reply that said that they do not have time to help others with support for their hacks. Okay, I was a little peeved off but I took it-What annoyed me more then not getting the support I requested, but just being blatantly ignored until i had to send another PM. Anyway, I was going to ignore this matter until the day before yesterday

I had a general question about vbulletin.org which involved releasing one of my modifications, so I decided to PM Chris M, who I thought was a staff member that enjoyed helping others. Obviously again I was wrong, as I have not had a reply since then even though again this user is always on and has been on frequently since.

The point I am trying to put accross here is how can people learn without getting support from someone that can give it? I'm sure that they've had to have some help in their time, so why not help the next upcomimg members?

Now, there is all these threads from coders and staff how vbulletin.org is failing, and most are directed at the administrators. Really, I feel that it is the actual coders and moderators that are starting to make it fall down hill! All it would have taken was 2 minutes of their time for a simple reply, instead I just got ignored which I find very very rude, I wouldn't even have minded if they just sent a reply saying they do not have enough time anymore to be of assistance! So, before people start giving this bullshit having a go at admin's, they should take a look at themselves. Treat people like you'd like to be treated.

Now, This is definetly not everyone. Some generally want to help vbulletin.org get better. Xenon as an admin has definetly helped me in the past, as has Paul M as a coder.These are great people who deserve to be listened to, as well as many others. Some just need to buck up their ideas and let the staff do their jobs

Please let me just say again how this is not everyone-Some give all they have got to vbulletin.org and to them I am truly grateful-

Thanks
As it was pointed out by Danny, we get PM's frequently requesting us to do things, asking us questions and all sorts of other things - I do not always respond to support PMs unless I am not busy with other things, however recently there has been alot of activity regarding threads and discussions ;)

I didn't mean you any disrespect, but I didn't reply mostly because there were 2 staff issues to deal with at the same time as your support issue, and it simply got dropped to the back of my mind...

I've made it clear in my signature that I do not wish to get PMs, IMs or emails about support, yet it still happens...

Please understand that things are not as simple on our end as stopping our lives and duties to answer questions :)

Chris

Freesteyelz
21 May 2006, 21:47
Have you ever noticed that whenever people see anything "do not" they have a tendency to do it anyway? A more assertive approach:

PM's regarding support will simply be ignored. Please use our support forums for any issues or questions that you have. Thank you for your understanding.

Ziki
22 May 2006, 14:22
Right,

I am starting to get a little peeved.This has nothing to do with vb.org staff, apart from the user Chris M.

Recently, i've had a couple of problems.One was that I needed some support on a mod from a member who shall remain nameless.I PM'd that user, and after 3 days I did not get a reply, even though the user had been on numerous times. So, I PM'd the user again and got a reply that said that they do not have time to help others with support for their hacks. Okay, I was a little peeved off but I took it-What annoyed me more then not getting the support I requested, but just being blatantly ignored until i had to send another PM. Anyway, I was going to ignore this matter until the day before yesterday

I had a general question about vbulletin.org which involved releasing one of my modifications, so I decided to PM Chris M, who I thought was a staff member that enjoyed helping others. Obviously again I was wrong, as I have not had a reply since then even though again this user is always on and has been on frequently since.

The point I am trying to put accross here is how can people learn without getting support from someone that can give it? I'm sure that they've had to have some help in their time, so why not help the next upcomimg members?

Now, there is all these threads from coders and staff how vbulletin.org is failing, and most are directed at the administrators. Really, I feel that it is the actual coders and moderators that are starting to make it fall down hill! All it would have taken was 2 minutes of their time for a simple reply, instead I just got ignored which I find very very rude, I wouldn't even have minded if they just sent a reply saying they do not have enough time anymore to be of assistance! So, before people start giving this bullshit having a go at admin's, they should take a look at themselves. Treat people like you'd like to be treated.

Now, This is definetly not everyone. Some generally want to help vbulletin.org get better. Xenon as an admin has definetly helped me in the past, as has Paul M as a coder.These are great people who deserve to be listened to, as well as many others. Some just need to buck up their ideas and let the staff do their jobs

Please let me just say again how this is not everyone-Some give all they have got to vbulletin.org and to them I am truly grateful-

Thanks


1.Coders decide if they support their mods
2.NEVER EVER! PM them for support
3.Never try 2 and check 1 ;)