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akanevsky
02 Jun 2006, 20:41
I have noticed that many of the choices that were made for coding and design teams are not great. The reason is, many of these newly elected members are not even advanced coders / designers, many of them have released at most one or two works with a total of no more than 10 installs. Knowing some of them in person, I have enough basis to state with confidence that many of these members are in no way qualified for their positions based on their experience (not speaking about work).

That is disturbing. I am sure that most of us don't want this site to be run by a bunch of newbies. I alone could name plently of members who would be much more qualified for coding and design positions than those individuals that were chosen.

Do not get my intentions wrong - I do not wish to be neither on a coding nor on a design team at this time, but what do you think about reverting staff changes and having members nominate those who members consider to be worthy as well as denominate those who members consider to be not? I am sure that would increase the overall progress and make this community a lot stronger, and I'm really hoping that this won't get deleted without reasonable amount of prior discussion.

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 20:43
Agreed. I believe i mentioned this in another thread. No offense to anyone. However, i'm just trying to figure out what everyone's "vote" is based on.

Boofo
02 Jun 2006, 20:45
I have noticed that many of the choices that were made for coding and design teams are not great. The reason is, many of these newly elected members are not even advanced coders / designers, many of them have released at most one or two works with a total of no more than 10 installs. Knowing some of them in person, I have enough basis to state with confidence that many of these members are in no way qualified for their positions based on their experience (not speaking about work).

That is disturbing. I am sure that most of us don't want this site to be run by a bunch of newbies. I alone could name plently of members who would be much more qualified for coding and design positions than those individuals that were chosen.

Do not get my intentions wrong - I do not wish to be neither on a coding nor on a design team at this time, but what do you think about reverting staff changes and having members nominate those who members consider to be worthy as well as denominate those who members consider to be not? I am sure that would increase the overall progress and make this community a lot stronger, and I'm really hoping that this won't get deleted without reasonable amount of prior discussion.

New Staff members were NOT only picked because of their coding abilities or any one single reason. Many reasons were taken into account and everyone was looked at very closely before they were picked for any one team. I stand by every one of the coding team nominations and they will stay in their positions.

Zachery
02 Jun 2006, 20:48
Just because they don't have work released here doesn't mean they lack design/coding skills.

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 20:50
New Staff members were NOT only picked because of their coding abilities or any one single reason. Many reasons were taken into account and everyone was looked at closely before they were picked for any one team. I stand by every one of the coding team nominations and they will stay in their positions.

Believe it or not, this is an honest question. So you can add someone to the designing or coding team regardless of ability, just if they're a good person?

Dan
02 Jun 2006, 20:51
No what he meant to say from what I understand is that there are other factors besides his or her coding/designing abilities as to if he or she will get on staff.

darnoldy
02 Jun 2006, 20:53
...what do you think about reverting staff changes and having members nominate those who members consider to be worthy as well as denominate those who members consider to be not?I would not do this on a forum I ran, and I would not expect those who run this one to do it either.

--don

akanevsky
02 Jun 2006, 20:53
Just because they don't have work released here doesn't mean they lack design/coding skills.
You have missed a part of my post. Let me quote:
Knowing some of them in person, I have enough basis to state with confidence that many of these members are in no way qualified for their positions based on their experience (not speaking about work).

I understand the position of the staff on this, but my post was directed mostly at non-staff. I am only asking staff members to hear out what non-staff members will say. You can always respond with a final decision afterwards. Thanks.

As for other factors for election, can these factors be made public so that we can discuss them?

I would not doi this on a forum I ran, and I would not expect those who run this one to do it either.
If you ensure your own safety and create a seperate group of staff that can be elected or brought down, I don't see why not.

Zachery
02 Jun 2006, 20:56
Anthony, what makes you totally quailfied to make judgements on other peoples skills? Are you some master coder who knows 10 coding languages and has several degrees and 8+ years of expeicing in not only school but real world work?

Boofo
02 Jun 2006, 20:56
No what he meant to say from what I understand is that there are other factors besides his or her coding/designing abilities as to if he or she will get on staff.

Thank you, Dan. At least someone read my entire post. ;)

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 20:56
Are you some master coder
Psionic Vision (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/member.php?u=80739)
Master Coder

Zachery
02 Jun 2006, 20:57
Psionic Vision (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/member.php?u=80739) vbmenu_register("postmenu_996572", true);
Master Coder
I could have Master coder by releasing some insanely popular two line hack as well if It got 2000 installs.

Dan
02 Jun 2006, 20:58
Psionic Vision (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/member.php?u=80739)
Master Coder
I don't think you got far enough in Zachery's post gio.

Corriewf
02 Jun 2006, 20:58
Psionic Vision (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/member.php?u=80739)
Master Coder

ahaha! Now that's funny!

Boofo
02 Jun 2006, 20:58
I would not do this on a forum I ran, and I would not expect those who run this one to do it either.

--don

And most members here, who are also Admins of their own sites as well as others, wouldn't do it that way either, if they were to be totally honest.

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 21:00
Anthony, what makes you totally quailfied to make judgements on other peoples skills? Are you some master coder who knows 10 coding languages and has several degrees and 8+ years of expeicing in not only school but real world work?

Sorry, but i had to make that other post. Anyways, it doesn't take someone with 10 different coding languages and degrees to be able to determine the difference between someone who can and cannot code. Just like it doesn't take a designer to realized something that someone coded wasn't to attractive.

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 21:01
I could have Master coder by releasing some insanely popular two line hack as well if It got 2000 installs.

Yet another way of saying "Your usertitles mean nothing" :p Thanks Zach! Also, take a look at his profile. The most popular hack (invites system) is far more than 2 lines. Anyways, i don't want to cause a debate. I just considered that post to be completely irrelevant.

Boofo
02 Jun 2006, 21:02
Sorry, but i had to make that other post. Anyways, it doesn't take someone with 10 different coding languages and degrees to be able to determine the difference between someone who can and cannot code. Just like it doesn't take a designer to realized something that someone coded wasn't to attractive.

First of all, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Second, it takes more than designing or coding ability to make a good Mod. I am a testimony to that, if you really think about it.

Dan
02 Jun 2006, 21:02
But Gio you've already started the debate when you mentioned the master coder title.

Wayne Luke
02 Jun 2006, 21:05
The staff here will take this idea into consideration when the environment on this site is a little more stabilized. It would do more harm than good to implement this at this time and to roll back staff changes just as everyone is getting up to speed with their new assignments. Such governance by committee would add weeks, if not months, to the planned changes.

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 21:05
First of all, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Second, it takes more than designing or coding ability to make a good Mod. I am a testimony to that, if you really think about it.

Good point. But any coder (regardless of level) should be able to determine whether or not one can code as a matter of relating. Then again, perhaps that's just my opinion as a coder.

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 21:06
But Gio you've already started the debate when you mentioned the master coder title.

That was a simple joke Dan. If anyone took it offensive, sorry :p

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 21:07
The staff here will take this idea into consideration when the environment on this site is a little more stabilized. It would do more harm than good to implement this at this time and to roll back staff changes just as everyone is getting up to speed with their new assignments. Such governance by committee would add weeks, if not months, to the planned changes.

Stabilized meaning less debate or more organized? Also, no need to take out all of the staff now. How about just doing it for future staff? Someone nominates someone, the person who's nominated can give a speech as to why he or she will be good for the job? In the end, the staff effects the community more than other staff members, does it not? Also, thanks for the consideration :p It is appreciated.

hambil
02 Jun 2006, 21:13
Anthony, what makes you totally quailfied to make judgements on other peoples skills? Are you some master coder who knows 10 coding languages and has several degrees and 8+ years of expeicing in not only school but real world work?
I am! ;)

Not that it matters, I just felt a burning need to say that. It would have been more funny if the question had actually been posed to me. :D

Zachery
02 Jun 2006, 21:13
I did over simplify things, apologies. Titles do mean something, you did have to work hard or long to create most hacks that will be useful and popular to the general majority. And one hack wouldn't get you master coder regardless :).

My point was what qualifications do most people have to really judge others work? I know from personal experience that everyone on the designers team is very good at what they do. I know Brad, KA, and Andy are very well skilled, and I'm very sure Brad would not have put an amateur into a team lead position. I've seen that Princeton is a fairly well accomplished designer. Since design of HTML/css is my area thats the only one I'll comment on. But please keep in mind that we wouldn't have brought anyone onto the team if we didn't think they could do the work. Everyone improves if you give them time. We all had to start somewhere.

akanevsky
02 Jun 2006, 21:15
Anthony, what makes you totally quailfied to make judgements on other peoples skills? Are you some master coder who knows 10 coding languages and has several degrees and 8+ years of expeicing in not only school but real world work?
I could have Master coder by releasing some insanely popular two line hack as well if It got 2000 installs.

Although I may not know 10 coding languages, I know those languages which comprise vBulletin, namely PHP, XML, XHTML and Javascript better than certain other individuals who were picked, and my age and/or level of education has nothing to do with it. Also, none of my popular hacks are comprised of two lines of code, most of them actually contain 100s. I never say anything unless I'm 100% sure about it, and that applies to this thread too.

That, however, has nothing to do with my first post: let me point out for the third time that I am only asking for other members' opinon, and I am not claiming that anything should be done just becase I want it. I could have claimed that I am a master coder when I joined this site, but I chose to not hide who I am. There is no reason why you should be attacking me in person for that, esspecially since you seem to become so nervous when YOU (admins / moderators) are personally attacked. I am hoping that you'll undestand without me having to quote Wayne's post for you.

And most members here, who are also Admins of their own sites as well as others, wouldn't do it that way either, if they were to be totally honest.

Maybe it would be more correct to say that admins would not do that because they are not totally honest.

EDIT:
Hmm, more posts since I wrote this.

The staff here will take this idea into consideration when the environment on this site is a little more stabilized. It would do more harm than good to implement this at this time and to roll back staff changes just as everyone is getting up to speed with their new assignments. Such governance by committee would add weeks, if not months, to the planned changes.

Thank you for the post. That is the kind of reply I wanted to hear from a staff member.

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 21:17
I did over simplify things, apologies. Titles do mean something, you did have to work hard or long to create most hacks that will be useful and popular to the general majority. And one hack wouldn't get you master coder regardless :).

My point was what qualifications do most people have to really judge others work? I know from personal experience that everyone on the designers team is very good at what they do. I know Brad, KA, and Andy are very well skilled, and I'm very sure Brad would not have put an amateur into a team lead position. I've seen that Princeton is a fairly well accomplished designer. Since design of HTML/css is my area thats the only one I'll comment on. But please keep in mind that we wouldn't have brought anyone onto the team if we didn't think they could do the work. Everyone improves if you give them time. We all had to start somewhere.

Thank you for understanding Zach :p Also, it is true that everyone starts somewhere, but is the staff a good place to start really?

hambil
02 Jun 2006, 21:19
That, however, has nothing to do with my first post: let me point out for the third time that I am only asking for other members' opinon,
Okay. Then I'll give you mine.

Teams are not made of all stars. Look at sports for an example. A coding team is similar. You need a star, maybe two, and then a bunch of supporting players. Too many stars will only clash with each other.

A typical rl coding team consists of one Senior Developer, or Technical Lead, two to three mid level developers, and one jr. developer.

And, as important as skill is, ability to work together and enjoy each others company is just as important.

akanevsky
02 Jun 2006, 21:22
I did over simplify things, apologies. Titles do mean something, you did have to work hard or long to create most hacks that will be useful and popular to the general majority. And one hack wouldn't get you master coder regardless :).

My point was what qualifications do most people have to really judge others work? I know from personal experience that everyone on the designers team is very good at what they do. I know Brad, KA, and Andy are very well skilled, and I'm very sure Brad would not have put an amateur into a team lead position. I've seen that Princeton is a fairly well accomplished designer. Since design of HTML/css is my area thats the only one I'll comment on. But please keep in mind that we wouldn't have brought anyone onto the team if we didn't think they could do the work. Everyone improves if you give them time. We all had to start somewhere.

You can see myself as a skilled coder and you know it, I think my release record proves that.
As for improving with time, I honestly don't think recruiting people who need an improve at a time when quick changes are needed is such a good iea.

Corriewf
02 Jun 2006, 21:23
And, as important as skill is, ability to work together and enjoy each others company is just as important.

Yes, but will we as members interacting with them, enjoy their company? I think that is what is important.


Boofo is a good example of a good staff member, the other could use some tuning on their people skills.....

Zachery
02 Jun 2006, 21:23
You can see myself as a skilled coder and you know it.
As for improving with time, I honestly don't think recruiting people who need an improve at a time when quick changes are needed is such a good iea.
Anthony, I can honestly say I've never used one of your modifications or took extensive time to review your code.

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 21:25
You can see myself as a skilled coder and you know it, I think my release record proves that.
As for improving with time, I honestly don't think recruiting people who need an improve at a time when quick changes are needed is such a good iea.
Hence, why i said
but is the staff a good place to start really?

akanevsky
02 Jun 2006, 21:31
Anthony, I can honestly say I've never used one of your modifications or took extensive time to review your code.

Thank you for honesty, Zachery, I really appreciate it. Well... I don't think you can ask me how good my experience is or whether I am in a position to judge others if you are not even familiar with any of my hacks... At least, before asking, I would do some basic preliminary research. Just in case you are interested, I could tell you what to look at so as not to spend extra time.

I can just say without making anything up that one of the highest members of the coding team has asked me for coding help a number of times on something so basic that it made me wonder about this whole issue in the first place. I am not sure whether I should post the details... So for now, I won't.

darnoldy
02 Jun 2006, 21:41
Maybe it would be more correct to say that admins would not do that because they are not totally honest.It would be more-correct to say that they don't do it because, in the long run, communities that try it tend to self-destruct.

As somebody who has been managing online communities since before you were born (the software for the first forum I managed was written in FORTRAN), I have heard the arguement you are making innumerable times. "We (whatever group the person identifies with) are the ones who are important here, without us this community would disappear, we should be in charge, you should do what we want." Its not true. Life doesn't work that way.

--don

Dean C
02 Jun 2006, 21:42
Zachery, I find some of your early posts a little condescending. I think Anthony has a valid point. Certainly some of the members of the newly appointed design team are not what I'd deem good designers. Anyone can pick up a copy of photoshop and add some drop shadows, bevels, strokes and whatnot.

I don't mean to pick on you Kerry-Anne, because I do feel you are a positive addition to the staff, just in the wrong section. However, judging from what I have seen of your work, you are no way near qualified to be put in the design team.

Boofo
02 Jun 2006, 21:42
I can just say without making anything up that one of the highest members of the coding team has asked me for coding help a number of times on something so basic that it made me wonder about this whole issue in the first place. I am not sure whether I should post the details... So for now, I won't.

To set the record straight, yes, I have come to you on a few occasions, but not as many as you would like to believe. I have come to others, too, as you can tell by the jokes going around about coders hiding from me. ;)

It's no big secret that I have come to you or many others here for advice and help in coding. I don't have the skills in coding yet as a lot of you younger ones here do. Remember, as you get older, things aren't as easy to grasp in the learning area as they once were. I'm learning all the time as well all are.

Does my lack of complete coding skills interfere with my Moderation duties here? I don't think it has, although I'm sure there are those that would argue that point. ;)

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 21:44
It would be more-correct to say that they don't do it because, in the long run, communities that try it tend to self-destruct.

As somebody who has been managing online communities since before you were born (the software for the first forum I managed was written in FORTRAN), I have heard the arguement you are making innumerable times. "We (whatever group the person identifies with) are the ones who are important here, without us this community would disappear, we should be in charge, you should do what we want." Its not true. Life doesn't work that way.

--don

Regardless of how long you've been dealing with forums (and do not take offense to this), you cannot treat this the same because the case is different. And no one is saying we should be in charge, so please look carefully before posting. What is obvious and has been said is that members should be able to vote for staff since the staff will directly effect members most, which i'm sure you should know as someone who has been managing online communities for such a long time.

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 21:45
Zachery, I find some of your early posts a little condescending. I think Anthony has a valid point. Certainly some of the members of the newly appointed design team are not what I'd deem good designers. Anyone can pick up a copy of photoshop and add some drop shadows, bevels, strokes and whatnot.

I don't mean to pick on you Kerry-Anne, because I do feel you are a positive addition to the staff, just in the wrong section. However, judging from what I have seen of your work, you are no way near qualified to be put in the design team.

Your honesty is appreciated, and well said :p

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 21:47
To set the record straight, yes, I have come to you on a few occasions, but not as many as you would like to believe. I have come to others, too, as you can tell by the jokes going around about coders hiding from me. ;)

It's no big secret that I have come to you or many others here for advice and help in coding. I don't have the skills in coding yet as a lot of you younger ones here do. Remember, as you get older, things aren't as easy to grasp in the learning area as they once were. I'm learning all the time as well all are.

Does my lack of complete coding skills interfere with my Moderation duties here? I don't think it has, although I'm sure there are those that would argue that point. ;)

Not to put you down or anything boofo (you know i love you and have no problem with you :p). But if you admit to not being as skilled as some of the other coders, then why are you the team leader? Or why aren't some of those people on the team? And your lack of coding skills does not effect your moderation. However, do you not thing that it effects your position as the coding team leader?

Paul M
02 Jun 2006, 21:48
What is obvious and has been said is that members should be able to vote for staff I'm curious, do you run your forums that way ? are your staff "elected" by members ?

I can tell you that they are not on any site I'm involved with, and I expect it's not the case on 95%+ sites. The sites owners decide who they have on their staff.

Boofo
02 Jun 2006, 21:50
Not to put you down or anything boofo (you know i love you and have no problem with you :p). But if you admit to not being as skilled as some of the other coders, then why are you the team leader? Or why aren't some of those people on the team?

Because as I said before, coding skills are just one factor in any Moderations duties involved. There is a lot more to it than just one thing in any area. That is why Kerry-Anne is an excellent choice for her position. She has more drive to help and learn than most of the older Modes here, myself included. She has been invaluable to the org as well as me personally and many others that I know of.

And a good leader will always pick those that are proficient in areas that he or she might not be so good at.

peterska2
02 Jun 2006, 21:50
Zachery, I find some of your early posts a little condescending. I think Anthony has a valid point. Certainly some of the members of the newly appointed design team are not what I'd deem good designers. Anyone can pick up a copy of photoshop and add some drop shadows, bevels, strokes and whatnot.

I don't mean to pick on you Kerry-Anne, because I do feel you are a positive addition to the staff, just in the wrong section. However, judging from what I have seen of your work, you are no way near qualified to be put in the design team.

Dean, you haven't seen half of my work as most of it is done on the fly and never released. I'm interested as to what type of designer you think I am, simply to satisfy my own curiosity as I generally don't be too aware of the image that I project.

hambil
02 Jun 2006, 21:51
Waaaaaah! I wasn't chosen! Waaah!

Sorry, but this is getting old fast. And the people whining are clearly not listening to reason, since I tried that already. So, I'm out of this thread. Have fun.

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 21:51
I'm curious, do you run your forums that way ? are your staff "elected" by members ?

I can tell you that they are not on any site I'm involved with, and I expect it's not the case on 95%+ sites. The sites owners decide who they have on their staff.

The site i currently run is only for premium modifications. However, when i did run general communities, every now and then i would have a poll where i'd choose who i think qualifies and then ask members who they'd like or ask for opinions.

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 21:51
Dean, you haven't seen half of my work as most of it is done on the fly and never released. I'm interested as to what type of designer you think I am, simply to satisfy my own curiosity as I generally don't be too aware of the image that I project.

Feel free to show us your real work :p I'm interested.

Dean C
02 Jun 2006, 21:55
Dean, you haven't seen half of my work as most of it is done on the fly and never released. I'm interested as to what type of designer you think I am, simply to satisfy my own curiosity as I generally don't be too aware of the image that I project.

Well show us some work then, because as far as I'm concerned, a lot of the new additions are incompetent at their designated roles. You have certainly not proven yourself as a designer within this community.

And just to clarify, I completely disagree with the idea of the senior members nominating new staff :)

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 21:55
Waaaaaah! I wasn't chosen! Waaah!

Sorry, but this is getting old fast. And the people whining are clearly not listening to reason, since I tried that already. So, I'm out of this thread. Have fun.

I had a nice post prepared, regarding how you have managed to suck up and boast yourself a great deal in every post you've made so far. However, i do not wish to have a public encounter. Therefore, i took it out. If you wish to direct something at me or anyone else, feel free to do so via pm.

Paul M
02 Jun 2006, 21:57
The site i currently run is only for premium modifications. However, when i did run general communities, every now and then i would have a poll where i'd choose who i think qualifies and then ask members who they'd like or ask for opinions.
So no, you don't run your site that way - but even if you did, I stand by my statement that the vast majority do not - vb.org is no different (nor is vb.com).

Boofo
02 Jun 2006, 21:57
@ Dean - That is your opinion and it is appreciated and welcomed. But there is more to being Staff than "design or coding examples" or anything like that. What looks bad to you might look great to someone else, am I not right? ;)

hambil
02 Jun 2006, 21:58
I had a nice post prepared, regarding how you have managed to suck up and boast yourself a great deal in every post you've made so far.
I'm the guy that started the 'code-out' thread. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm sucking up. What a childish view. As for 'flaming', that's pretty much what all these threads have been about, no matter how people have tried to flower them up and put perfume on them.

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 21:58
That is your opinion and it is appreciated and welcomed. But there is more to being Staff than "design or coding examples" or anything like that. What looks bad to you might look great to someone else, am I not right? ;)

Agreed.

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 21:59
So no, you don't run your site that way - but even if you did, I stand by my statement that the vast majority do not - vb.org is no different (nor is vb.com).

The system i described that i use is basically what i'm suggesting here, i don't see how it differs? Anyways, like boofo said. We all do things differently. And vb.org is a bit different due to the fact that the staff elected isn't only for moderation purposes.

Corriewf
02 Jun 2006, 21:59
Dean, I beleive she made the avatars we are looking at on the staff.

Paul M
02 Jun 2006, 22:02
Dean, I beleive she made the avatars we are looking at on the staff.Actually, no she didn't.

Dan
02 Jun 2006, 22:02
No that was Princeton

Corriewf
02 Jun 2006, 22:02
Actually, no she didn't.

Did someone from the design team? I am going to laugh if your answer is no.

Boofo
02 Jun 2006, 22:03
But she had invaluable input as did the rest of the Staff.

Dean C
02 Jun 2006, 22:03
@ Dean - That is your opinion and it is appreciated and welcomed. But there is more to being Staff than "design or coding examples" or anything like that. What looks bad to you might look great to someone else, am I not right? ;)

Indeed, design is subjective. But that's only when they have some level of expertise. And i'm not saying Kerry-Anne has none, but I have seen nothing to indicate she's a good design, whatsoever. And all I have to judge it on is her site which doesn't use a stock skin.

Indeed, there is more to being staff than one role, but you have clearly categorised people into a team, when they would be better off in another.

Paul M
02 Jun 2006, 22:04
Did someone from the design team? I am going to laugh if your answer is no.Save your laughter for another time then ;) The design team designed them.

hambil
02 Jun 2006, 22:07
I'm not sure why they should have to defend their choices at all, since the proof will be in the result. But, as for Kerry-Ann I can only speculate that a design team needs many skills, not just cracker-jack artists. There is css, layout, html, templates, and even some code. Kerry has written hacks and can clearly code and handle css and html/templates.

Again, a team needs to be diverse, not just a bunch of people with the same talents, or even the same level or talent.

peterska2
02 Jun 2006, 22:08
I've done a lot of partial styles, and really don't have any need to keep a record so while I could point you in the direction of some sites, I couldn't actually tell you exactly what I did there. Often it doesn't look like much, or isn't visible to non-staff and so it doesn't always have the WOW factor that a lot of people want with their modifications. The style on my site, while starting life as a commercial style, is heavily modified to meet my requirements. That is the same philsophy that I have regardless of what site I am working on. It must work, and work exactly as planned. As long as it does that, and the code is cross-browser and XHTML valid, then I am prefectly happy.

Boofo
02 Jun 2006, 22:08
Indeed, design is subjective. But that's only when they have some level of expertise. And i'm not saying Kerry-Anne has none, but I have seen nothing to indicate she's a good design, whatsoever. And all I have to judge it on is her site which doesn't use a stock skin.

Indeed, there is more to being staff than one role, but you have clearly categorised people into a team, when they would be better off in another.

Take a look at my site sometime, Dean, Kerry-Anne has been responsible for a lot of it so far. That will give you a better idea of what she is REALLY capable of. Just because she doesn't use a lot of things on her site, doesn't mean she is not capable of it.

As far as what people need to be on what team, like I said before, their abilities as coders or designers only plays a small part in any one decision as to the team they were picked for.

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 22:09
I'm the guy that started the 'code-out' thread. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I'm sucking up. What a childish view. As for 'flaming', that's pretty much what all these threads have been about, no matter how people have tried to flower them up and put perfume on them.

None of these threads were made for boasting hambil, sorry. And my view was not childish at all. If it was, then i can name about 5 other people who you may consider childish.

Boofo
02 Jun 2006, 22:10
None of these threads were made for boasting hambil, sorry. And my view was not childish at all. If it was, then i can name about 5 other people who you may consider childish.

Let's leave the flaming out of this thread, please, from everybody.

Dean C
02 Jun 2006, 22:11
hambil: That's total nonsense. Design has nothing to do with (X)HTML/CSS

Boofo
02 Jun 2006, 22:12
That's total nonsense. Design has nothing to do with (X)HTML/CSS
Dean, be realistic now. Design covers many areas, not just one. ;)

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 22:13
I'm not sure why they should have to defend their choices at all, since the proof will be in the result. But, as for Kerry-Ann I can only speculate that a design team needs many skills, not just cracker-jack artists. There is css, layout, html, templates, and even some code. Kerry has written hacks and can clearly code and handle css and html/templates.

Again, a team needs to be diverse, not just a bunch of people with the same talents, or even the same level or talent.

The ability to design should be determined more by the design, rather than how the design is coded on a website. If you ask someone to design you a building or something, they will design it. However, it is not always their job to build it. Yet, they are still the designer. This isn't different for web designers. Which is why you always see designers asking for people to code their layouts or sell things un coded.

Corriewf
02 Jun 2006, 22:13
I'm not sure why they should have to defend their choices at all, since the proof will be in the result. But, as for Kerry-Ann I can only speculate that a design team needs many skills, not just cracker-jack artists. There is css, layout, html, templates, and even some code. Kerry has written hacks and can clearly code and handle css and html/templates.

Again, a team needs to be diverse, not just a bunch of people with the same talents, or even the same level or talent.


Didn't you say you were done with this thread? It's like you enjoy spamming these threads....


ANYWAY

@Paul ~ I just thought it would be ironic if the design team did not.

@Staff Period ~ I see how excited you guys are to add input to this thread to defend your current status and how excited you are to pick what flavor your avatars are, but maybe you could give some attention to the thread below. You know the one asking about updates. ;)

Dan
02 Jun 2006, 22:14
I think we already gave an update on that, from several staff members and including Wayne himself.

hambil
02 Jun 2006, 22:14
Didn't you say you were done with this thread? It's like you enjoy spamming these threads....
Yeah, that must be it. :rolleyes:

peterska2
02 Jun 2006, 22:16
hambil: That's total nonsense. Design has nothing to do with (X)HTML/CSS

So what exactly does design involve? Drawing pictures? ;)

There's a reason for people appearing on this page (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showgroups.php?show=designers) and I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with pictures. :p

Dean C
02 Jun 2006, 22:16
Dean, be realistic now. Design covers many areas, not just one. ;)

Boofo, I'm sorry but I'm not going to accept this arguement in its slightest. HTML is used to build web page designs into their on-screen form. You'd say an architect is a designer, but not the builders who put together the building.

hambil
02 Jun 2006, 22:17
hambil: That's total nonsense. Design has nothing to do with (X)HTML/CSS
Delete all the css files on your vb site, then delete all the templates, and tell me how it looks after.

akanevsky
02 Jun 2006, 22:18
To set the record straight, yes, I have come to you on a few occasions, but not as many as you would like to believe. I have come to others, too, as you can tell by the jokes going around about coders hiding from me. ;)

It's no big secret that I have come to you or many others here for advice and help in coding. I don't have the skills in coding yet as a lot of you younger ones here do. Remember, as you get older, things aren't as easy to grasp in the learning area as they once were. I'm learning all the time as well all are.

Does my lack of complete coding skills interfere with my Moderation duties here? I don't think it has, although I'm sure there are those that would argue that point. ;)

Thank you, Boofo, for stepping forward. I have never expected it, and it has surprised me in a good way.

To make it straight: Coding skills do not affect your moderation duties, at least they do not seem to. And correct, you haven't come to me too often, but let it be known that the last question you asked is the primary cause of this discussion. Based on that last question, what is the reason you, and not someone else, are the leader of the coding team? Are you there to pick others who are skilled enough to fill the position (that's what you said yourself in the next post)? That would explain it, but the current composition of the coding team doesn't make it seem to be the case. I am just curious to find out what the real reason is.

Dean C
Thank you for your post (even though you disagree with the idea).

She has more drive to help and learn than most of the older Modes here, myself included.

Nominations of those who show initiative is how you can easily find out who would actually be willing to actively contribute. That's just my opinion though. To clarify, here's how I envision it:

1. A coder/designer proves capability by releasing a lot of work of high quiality and/or usefulness.
2. That coder/designer communicates (in one way or another) that he or she wants to do be on the coding / design team.
3. Existing staff either approves or disapproves the request, followed by a release of a public poll, the purpose of which is to determine whether the person will be actually elected.

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 22:18
So what exactly does design involve? Drawing pictures? ;)

There's a reason for people appearing on this page (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showgroups.php?show=designers) and I'm pretty sure it has nothing to do with pictures. :p


Read this please :P
The ability to design should be determined more by the design, rather than how the design is coded on a website. If you ask someone to design you a building or something, they will design it. However, it is not always their job to build it. Yet, they are still the designer. This isn't different for web designers. Which is why you always see designers asking for people to code their layouts or sell things un coded.


Also, the reason a lot of people are there is because vb.org consideres people that work with templates to be designers. HTML is actually a coding language, is it not?

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 22:19
Boofo, I'm sorry but I'm not going to accept this arguement in its slightest. HTML is used to build web page designs into their on-screen form. You'd say an architect is a designer, but not the builders who put together the building.

Hey, why are you stealing my analogy?

Nordinho
02 Jun 2006, 22:19
Just wondering why a discussion about staff has to be in public. Especially when naming people. I wouldn't feel confortable if I was new on the staff now. On my site, discussions like these are done in private...

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 22:21
Delete all the css files on your vb site, then delete all the templates, and tell me how it looks after.

Take a screenshot of your website, then compare it to your existing vbulletin. Same design, just no function. Enough said.

akanevsky
02 Jun 2006, 22:21
Firstly, no names were mentioned. At least, I haven't mentioned any.

The reason for this conversation to be public is that it would be very difficult to have this particular conversation in private. If this was private, there would be no way to have input from everyone. Besides, it is not possible to have more than two people in a private conversation...

Dean C
02 Jun 2006, 22:22
Delete all the css files on your vb site, then delete all the templates, and tell me how it looks after.

That is the building blocks, not the design *sigh*. Read my earlier post.

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 22:22
Thank you, Boofo, for stepping forward. I have never expected it, and it has surprised me in a good way.

To make it straight: Coding skills do not affect your moderation duties, at least they do not seem to. And correct, you haven't come to me too often, but let it be known that the last question you asked is the primary cause of this discussion. Based on that last question, what is the reason you, and not someone else, are the leader of the coding team? Are you there to pick others who are skilled enough to fill the position (that's what you said yourself in the next post)? That would explain it, but the current composition of the coding team doesn't make it seem to be the case. I am just curious to find out what the real reason is.

Dean C
Thank you for your post (even though you disagree with the idea).



Nominations of those who show initiative is how you can easily find out who would actually be willing to actively contribute. That's just my opinion though. To clarify, here's how I envision it:

1. A coder/designer proves capability by releasing a lot of work of high quiality and/or usefulness.
2. That coder/designer communicates (in one way or another) that he or she wants to do be on the coding / design team.
3. Existing staff either approves or disapproves the request, followed by a release of a public poll, the purpose of which is to determine whether the person will be actually elected.

Heh. You said a lot of what i already have and what i think as well. Hence, why it's quoted.

Corriewf
02 Jun 2006, 22:23
I think we already gave an update on that, from several staff members and including Wayne himself.


No not really..... There was a lot of " Quit taking stabs at the staff " and " lets try to treat each other with respect ", but if I missed the actual post with the update, please quote it.

Thanks. :)

peterska2
02 Jun 2006, 22:23
Also, the reason a lot of people are there is because vb.org consideres people that work with templates to be designers. HTML is actually a coding language, is it not?

Exactly my point, I am a HTML coder which lands me in the designer group. I'm not, nor never have been, although do not rule out for the future, a PHP coder.

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 22:23
Firstly, no names were mentioned. At least, I haven't mentioned any.

The reason for this conversation to be public is that it would be very difficult to have this particular conversation in private. If this was private, there would be no way to have input from everyone. Besides, it is not possible to have more than two people in a private conversation...

Yes. Also, this topic is for a public solution.

hambil
02 Jun 2006, 22:24
Take a screenshot of your website, then compare it to your existing vbulletin. Same design, just no function. Enough said.
Great point! I love nothing more than non-functional design. I prefer all my designs that way.

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 22:24
No not really..... There was a lot of " Quit taking stabs at the staff " and " lets try to treat each other with respect ", but if I missed the actual post with the update, please quote it.

Thanks. :)

Wayne made a minor update. However, it was a bit general.

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 22:25
Great point! I love nothing more than non-functional design. I prefer all my designs that way.

That's what a design is. A design and the implementation of a design are two different things. You should know this, after all, you're a professional coder with years of practice and several degrees.

Paul M
02 Jun 2006, 22:28
Yes. Also, this topic is for a public solution.In your opinion ;)

Are a few people perhaps just a little bitter that they didn't get chosen ?

Anyway, time for me to leave the playground, I have to get some sleep and then catch a plane to Spain. See you all in a week or so. Remember that playtime ends when the bell sounds ..... :D

akanevsky
02 Jun 2006, 22:30
Are a few people perhaps just a little bitter that they didn't get chosen ?

As I pointed out in the first post, I do not wish to be on vB.org's coding team at this time, even if I was chosen. So no, I am certainly not bitter at that.

hambil
02 Jun 2006, 22:30
That's what a design is. A design and the implementation of a design are two different things.
No they aren't. A design HAS to be functional. Imagine a building design with no doors, windows or elevators.

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 22:32
In your opinion ;)

Are a few people perhaps just a little bitter that they didn't get chosen ?

Anyway, time for me to leave the playground, I have to get some sleep and then catch a plane to Spain. See you all in a week or so. Remember that playtime ends when the bell sounds ..... :D

Heh. Not at all. I said it before and i'll say it again. The second i heard about this, i pmed the admins willing to help and even pmed brad letting him know what i am capable of. I was and still am willing to help out. However, me not being chosen yet/at all is honestly the least of my worries. I and a few others just felt that some people can do a better job and wanted to know why those people are not given the chance.

Dean C
02 Jun 2006, 22:33
In your opinion ;)

Are a few people perhaps just a little bitter that they didn't get chosen ?

Anyway, time for me to leave the playground, I have to get some sleep and then catch a plane to Spain. See you all in a week or so. Remember that playtime ends when the bell sounds ..... :D

Paul, why do you have to be condescending? Nevertheless, have a nice trip :)

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 22:33
No they aren't. A design HAS to be functional. Imagine a building design with no doors, windows or elevators.

Wow. Another irrelevant analogy. The building design will have all of that included. However, it is not the designer's job to build it.

hambil
02 Jun 2006, 22:37
Wow. Another irrelevant analogy. The building design will have all of that included. However, it is not the designer's job to build it.
But it has to be a functional design. The building has to hold up under stress, and a million other things. It has to have the right number of doors and elevators for the expected number of people using it. It has to have enough bathrooms, etc. etc...

Design isn't just pictures. It's usability, standards, knowing what do with CSS and what to do with graphics. Did you know those nice little rounded tabs for v3Arcade are done completely with css?

Call it 'bragging' if you want, but this is what I've done for a living for 20+ years, and I do know what I am talking about.

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 22:38
But it has to be a functional design. The building has to hold up under stress, and a million other things. It has to have the right number of doors and elevators for the expected number of people using it. It has to have enough bathrooms, etc. etc...

Design isn't just pictures. It's usability, standards, knowing what do with CSS and what to do with graphics. Did you know those nice little rounded tabs for v3Arcade are done completely with css?

Call it 'bragging' if you want, but this is what I've done for a living for 20+ years, and I do know what I am talking about.

They put their design together. Yes, they take all of that into consideration. However, the bottom line is that they do not build it. It doesn't take years of experience to understand that, just some common sense. Now, lets move on from the question of "what makes a designer".

Anyways, i will be gone for a bit. All of this talk has made me hungry :p

Corriewf
02 Jun 2006, 22:40
No they aren't. A design HAS to be functional. Imagine a building design with no doors, windows or elevators.

No, that's called, my old apartment.

hambil
02 Jun 2006, 22:41
No, that's called, my old apartment.
Prison? :p

akanevsky
02 Jun 2006, 22:42
But it has to be a functional design. The building has to hold up under stress, and a million other things. It has to have the right number of doors and elevators for the expected number of people using it. It has to have enough bathrooms, etc. etc...

Design isn't just pictures. It's usability, standards, knowing what do with CSS and what to do with graphics. Did you know those nice little rounded tabs for v3Arcade are done completely with css?

Call it 'bragging' if you want, but this is what I've done for a living for 20+ years, and I do know what I am talking about.

I don't see how what you are talking about has anything to do with the topic - If I remember correctly, it is not about deciding what the functions of coders and designers should be.

Boofo
02 Jun 2006, 22:42
Prison? :p

He did his time. Give the poor felon a chance, will you please? :cross-eyed:

hambil
02 Jun 2006, 22:44
I don't see how what you are talking about has anything to do with the topic - If I remember correctly, it is not about allocating the functions of coders and designers.
But, it got off on a tangent of qualifications, and I was addressing that.

As for the original topic of the thread, voting on staff, I've seen many boards try it, and very few succeed. It often becomes a popularity contest with members infighting and 'campaigning' and has little to do with who is best of the job.

MJM
02 Jun 2006, 22:46
I have always found this curiously puzzling ...
Company provides interactive software, demonstrates usefullness and functions of application on own site.

Software includes ability to take polls.

Company rarely uses polls to demonstrate it's value or further develop the features' usefulness.


:confused:

Corriewf
02 Jun 2006, 22:47
He did his time. Give the poor felon a chance, will you please? :cross-eyed:

That's right! ReD DrAgOnZ Fo LiFeZ sOnZ!

Now who wants to be called a designer in prison?

Boofo
02 Jun 2006, 22:49
Boofo, I'm sorry but I'm not going to accept this arguement in its slightest. HTML is used to build web page designs into their on-screen form. You'd say an architect is a designer, but not the builders who put together the building.

Without the builders, where would the architect be? They both are equally important and need one another.

Corriewf
02 Jun 2006, 22:52
Without the builders, where would the architect be? They both are equally important and need one another.

What about the surveyers? Would that be a senior member like myself?

Boofo
02 Jun 2006, 22:58
What about the surveyers? Would that be a senior member like myself?

Surveyors are important, too. But only if they have never done prison time. :cross-eyed:

akanevsky
02 Jun 2006, 22:59
But, it got off on a tangent of qualifications, and I was addressing that.

As for the original topic of the thread, voting on staff, I've seen many boards try it, and very few succeed. It often becomes a popularity contest with members infighting and 'campaigning' and has little to do with who is best of the job.

Do you think individuals would spend a lot of time on campaigning for a position, the duties of which they were not really going to fulfill?

GaryP
02 Jun 2006, 23:02
What the flipping heck is going on around here?

On my site we use a simple vBulletin feature if someone wants to make a complaint. It's called the Contact Us page.

I strongly suggest that instead of complaining like this, and possibly upseting people of a sensitive nature, that you start using the Contact Us page to make any complaints. That way it will be dealt with by the people who can deal with it appropraiately - namely the site administrators.

Does it matter if someone is a coder ro a designer? a staff member or a user? a regular member like myself? no it doesn't.

Everyone should just take a chill pill and stop worrying about who does what and whyw itht he staff. Thats the site administrators resposibilitty and I am sure that they know what they are doing. IF you want to ever have half a hope of becomeing staff, you must first learn to act responsibly. Noone anyweher will have people on their staff who are irresponsible and immature regardless of if it is a webiste, or a real life company.

The most important thing is that everyone leanrs to get along and stops all the bickering that is going on.

Corriewf
02 Jun 2006, 23:03
Surveyors are important, too. But only if they have never done prison time. :cross-eyed:

Are you trying to say ive stole sheetrock from you cause that wasn't me.... :tired:

Do you think individuals would spend a lot of time on campaigning for a position, the duties of which they were not really going to fulfill?


Reminds me of the Kerry/Bush election..... :(

akanevsky
02 Jun 2006, 23:05
I strongly suggest...

Before suggesting anything and even before posting, please read through the thread, as you, judging from your post, have no slightest idea of what's going on. That includes both the reasons for this thread and what was posted by others (staff and non-staff) afterwards.

Reminds me of the Kerry/Bush election.....

Yeah, but this is a bit different. No serve terms and preservation of senior administrators is what wasn't there during presidential elections...

Corriewf
02 Jun 2006, 23:07
Oh and while im thinking about it.... How come there is no Senior member team....

I think Boofo should lead that!

michaelbenson
02 Jun 2006, 23:07
And I strongly suggest that you read through a thread before posting, as you, judging from your post, have no slightest idea of what's going on.
Regardless, Gary has a point. By creating these numerous threads taunting the already sensitive idea of what the general criteria to become a staff member is, you are doing nothing to formulate and build a community, more so you are dividing it between those who are in favour of a forum run by the staff, and those who want the forum "ran" by the contributors.

GaryP
02 Jun 2006, 23:10
And I strongly suggest that you read through a thread before posting, as you, judging from your post, have no slightest idea of what's going on. That includes both the reasons for this thread and what was posted by others (staff and non-staff) afterwards.

The reson for the thread was that you want to vote for staff members so that you and your pals get on staff and people that you don't like dont.

The staff got involved when you started attacking a member of staffs right to be on the team.

From there it desecended into anarchy.

This is a lot of little children who are throwing their toys out of the pram and just making themselves look like people who should not even be allowed near a computer.

Dean C
02 Jun 2006, 23:10
Without the builders, where would the architect be? They both are equally important and need one another.

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm trying to say. A builder is not a designer. He has absolutely no creative input on the construction or design of a building. I digress, and to bed I go.

akanevsky
02 Jun 2006, 23:12
Regardless, Gary has a point. By creating these numerous threads taunting the already sensitive idea of what the general criteria to become a staff member is, you are doing nothing to formulate and build a community, more so you are dividing it between those who are in favour of a forum run by the staff, and those who want the forum "ran" by the contributors.

Can you suggest a better way of doing it, considering what I already said about private conversations a few posts above?

That has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm trying to say. A builder is not a designer. He has absolutely no creative input on the construction or design of a building. I digress, and to bed I go.

Hambil, "The building has to hold up under stress"? A building drawn on paper certainly won't hold up.
It is the architect's job to actually pile the bricks. Once again, however, this has nothing to do with the thread.

The reson for the thread was that you want to vote for staff members so that you and your pals get on staff...

That statement proves that you have not read the thread. You have not even throughly read the first post... Pity, provided the important parts are highlighted in bold.

Boofo
02 Jun 2006, 23:13
Regardless, Gary has a point. By creating these numerous threads taunting the already sensitive idea of what the general criteria to become a staff member is, you are doing nothing to formulate and build a community, more so you are dividing it between those who are in favour of a forum run by the staff, and those who want the forum "ran" by the contributors.

Well said, sir. ;)

Dean C
02 Jun 2006, 23:15
This is a lot of little children who are throwing their toys out of the pram and just making themselves look like people who should not even be allowed near a computer.

Questioning someone's authority is by no means a reason to comment on their maturity. It's funny how easy it is for people to throw maturity comments around thesedays, when it's often those who make the comments who are the ones being childish.

However I agree with what's been said; this thread has gone slightly off topic and my opinion has been stated already.

MPDev
02 Jun 2006, 23:22
In difference to everything else that has been said, I fully support a site owners right to pick whomever they please to represent and moderate their site. The people who pay the bills are not accountible to anyone here, IMO; so hire who you think will do the best job and I'll continue to contribute in a meaningful way.

You can't please everyone here, so pick a path and follow it.

akanevsky
02 Jun 2006, 23:23
those who want the forum "ran" by the contributors.

You are misunderstanding the point. Not "ran" by contributors, but contributed to by a small number of elected staff members... I can't believe it is so hard to understand.

In difference to everything else that has been said, I fully support a site owners right to pick whomever they please to represent and moderate their site. The people who pay the bills are not accountible to anyone here, IMO; so hire who you think will do the best job and I'll continue to contribute in a meaningful way.

I agree, but elections do not prevent a site's owner from making the final decision.

MPDev
02 Jun 2006, 23:28
I would suggest that elections would open up a whole new can of worms, but thats just my opinion. I would say that you could make recommendations in private, but decisions on how a site is run should fall to the owners.

I would simply ask all of you who own sites consider if these types of policies would be acceptible to your forums.

When I hire employees for my companies, I don't mind letting them get interviewed by their peers who will be working with them and getting feedback, but I make the final call on who gets hired and its not open for a vote.

(Edit: I'm not knocking your idea, maybe just an issue of choice of words is all.)

Boofo
02 Jun 2006, 23:35
I would suggest that elections would open up a whole new can of worms, but thats just my opinion. I would say that you could make recommendations in private, but decisions on how a site is run should fall to the owners.

I would simply ask all of you who own sites consider if these types of policies would be acceptible to your forums.

When I hire employees for my companies, I don't mind letting them get interviewed by their peers who will be working with them and getting feedback, but I make the final call on who gets hired and its not open for a vote.

(Edit: I'm not knocking your idea, maybe just an issue of choice of words is all.)

Where do I sign up? ;)

Zachariah
02 Jun 2006, 23:37
I would suggest that elections would open up a whole new can of worms, but thats just my opinion. I would say that you could make recommendations in private, but decisions on how a site is run should fall to the owners.

I would simply ask all of you who own sites consider if these types of policies would be acceptible to your forums.

When I hire employees for my companies, I don't mind letting them get interviewed by their peers who will be working with them and getting feedback, but I make the final call on who gets hired and its not open for a vote.

(Edit: I'm not knocking your idea, maybe just an issue of choice of words is all.)

:cool:

I do not see a problem either.

In any company:

- you hire people you can trust that will uphold company values.
- you hire people you can work with
- you hire people you can communicate with
- you hire people that can fill a need in the companies missions and goals.
- you hire people that can be trained
- you hire people that replace the leter "I" with the word "TEAM"

100’s of other reasons.

I got to go back to code ... All this talk and nothing is getting done.

akanevsky
02 Jun 2006, 23:43
I would suggest that elections would open up a whole new can of worms, but thats just my opinion. I would say that you could make recommendations in private, but decisions on how a site is run should fall to the owners.

That is exactly what I meant, with the exception that I think that in a community of coders/designers, there should be some input allowed from the public as to whether a certain individual should be elected or not. Of course, the final decision is the staff's, but often staff may not know about others who may be better qualified (example: Zachery, in the beginning of this thread). Input by members would create a better, fuller picture.

I would simply ask all of you who own sites consider if these types of policies would be acceptible to your forums.

If I was running a coding community, I would certainly allow members to vote for new staff members when these new staff members were actually required. That would allow me to know about people whom I might have not known about previously. Of course, I wouldn't just take in people who I know nothing about. I'd do some research. Or ask for more information to be provided. That's would not be a problem as long as they would be willing to cooperate.

MJM
02 Jun 2006, 23:45
What makes it a little different here is that it is the members, not the company, who are providing the product and support.
Without contributing coders this site would be history.

The ideal situation would be for everyone to show that they can work together on solving issues, whatever they be.

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 23:50
In difference to everything else that has been said, I fully support a site owners right to pick whomever they please to represent and moderate their site. The people who pay the bills are not accountible to anyone here, IMO; so hire who you think will do the best job and I'll continue to contribute in a meaningful way.

You can't please everyone here, so pick a path and follow it.

Jelsoft pays the bills.

Zachariah
02 Jun 2006, 23:50
What makes it a little different here is that it is the members, not the company, who are providing the product and support.
Without contributing coders this site would be history.

The ideal situation would be for everyone to show that they can work together on solving issues, whatever they be.

Company is not a big word to hang on. In any organization or “community” there are leaders who take responsibility and make the decisions. Good, bad, or whatever. It is always a growing experience. I am glad to be part of it and will miss it when it is gone.

Yes, the ideal situation would be for everyone to show that they can work together on solving issues, whatever they be

Gio~Logist
02 Jun 2006, 23:52
Without the builders, where would the architect be? They both are equally important and need one another.

That's not the point. The point is that the builders and the architect are not the same people. The importance was not being argued.

Boofo
02 Jun 2006, 23:54
That's not the point. The point is that the builders and the architect are not the same people. The importance was not being argued.

According to Dean it was. And I stand by my statement, anyway. ;)

smacklan
02 Jun 2006, 23:57
Wow...nine pages of this already in 4 1/2 hours. I'm sorry, but all this boils down to is there are some here bound and determined to force their opinions and ego's on everyone else who uses/visits this site. They don't have the influence they want/feel owed or whatever. This stuff is really getting old...do you folks not have real lives?

Boofo
03 Jun 2006, 00:18
do you folks not have real lives?

I used to once, a very, very long time ago. :(

MJM
03 Jun 2006, 00:34
... In any organization or “community” there are leaders who take responsibility and make the decisions.


Yep, there is a reason why some buttons have only enough room for one finger to push ;)

Suggestions, comments, polls, surveys and feedback are invaluable to anyone landed with the responsibility to make final decisions.

But the last thing any decision maker needs to deal with is bickering and hostilities derived from strongly opposing opinions, or repetitive beating of the dead horse. It's too draining.

Zachery
03 Jun 2006, 00:42
do you folks not have real lives? Its friday and we are here posting, whatcha think :)

Boofo
03 Jun 2006, 00:47
Its friday and we are here posting, whatcha think :)

Damn! That pretty well sums it up for all of us. :(

Corriewf
03 Jun 2006, 01:24
It's Friday?

akanevsky
03 Jun 2006, 01:45
It's raining here, and the rain happens to be acidic.

Boofo
03 Jun 2006, 01:52
It's raining here, and the rain happens to be acidic.

Which, in English, means?

akanevsky
03 Jun 2006, 02:12
Which, in English, means?

It is no wonder that your level of knowledge of English does not allow you to comprehend the meaning of the sentence, but perhaps you can solve the problem by hiring an interpreter ;)

No es de extrañar que su nivel del conocimiento de inglés no le permite reconocer la identidad ni el significado de esa oración, pero quizás usted puede resolver el problema empleando a un intérprete ;)

C'est pas étonnant que votre niveau de connaissance d'anglais ne permet pas vous de reconnaître l'identité ni le sens de cette phrase, mais peut-être vous pouvez résoudre le problème en engagant un interprète+;)

Es ist kein Wunder, das Ihre Höhe der Kenntnis von Englisch nicht erlaubt, dass Ihnen die Identität noch die Bedeutung von dass Satz erkennen, aber vielleicht Sie können das Problem durch Einstellen eines Dolmetschers lösen ;)

È nessuno prodigio che il suo livello di conoscenza di inglesi non consentono lei riconoscere l'identità né il significato di quella frase, ma forse lei può risolvere il problema assumendo un interprete ;)

Это не удивительно, что ваш уровень английского не позволяет вам понять смысл этого предложения, но вероятно вы можете решить проблему с помощью переводчка ;)

Zachariah
03 Jun 2006, 02:20
Which, in English, means?

Don't go in the rain .... :rolleyes: :p

Boofo
03 Jun 2006, 02:28
Whew! Thanks! I was just on my way to the library to pick up a bunch of translation books. You saved me a trip. :cross-eyed:

Brad
03 Jun 2006, 08:39
I do not, and have never seen any logic in having the community vote for staff members. Yes I've tried it, seen it done on multiple client forums, and watched it spawn a flame war multiple times.

This thread has already shown that people will criticize staff members no matter who they are, do you honestly think that will not carry over to a public vote on 'who should be staff?'. What makes the masses qualified to pick a staff member in the first place? Yes I know you are all admins with your own forum, and what I said might get you a little hot because I'm sure you manage your own staff. You have your own plans and ways of doing things, and you pick staff members to see these plans to their end. You need to understand that I go through the same thing.

A good staff member is much more than someone that has the ability to code, or design. They have to be a good fit with the current staff, they have to be willing to compromise for the good of the team, they have to be willing to work with the team leader and understand that sometimes they may not agree with their leader, they have to show customers the same respect they expect to be treated with, often times they have to enforce things they do not agree with, and above all else they must have a love for the community and what it stands for. These are some of the basic things I look for when I go hunting for staff members, and while I appreciate someone throwing me a name every now and again at the end of the day I have to make sure that person is suitable to be on the staff.

I am sorry some of you don't agree with the choice of staff, but we can't make everyone happy and only pick people that the entire community adores (in fact I'm doubtful I can find someone for staff that at least one person wouldn't have a problem with). So far they have all done a great job even without all the tools they need, and I hope they will continue doing a good job in the future. They were all picked based on what they have done in the community in the past. While some members of the coder/design team may not be producing 'killer apps' they have all shown at least some understanding of working with the software. Some of them will be coding additions for .org, some of them will be moderating the forums and answering technical questions and depending on the person they may do a little of both.

MPDev
03 Jun 2006, 13:54
Just keep doing what you think is best and the others will fall into line, Brad; cheers.

smacklan
03 Jun 2006, 15:55
Good post Brad and I think things are being handled just fine for what it's worth ;)

Azhrialilu
03 Jun 2006, 22:08
I'm not really gonna get involved in this, but I have to ask.... everyone here is an vbulletin owner - unless they're just listed on someone else's licence - and I dunno about you, but I wouldn't have members dictating to me who should staff a forum they don't own *shrug*

flame away :p

Shelley_c
03 Jun 2006, 22:14
I wouldn't have members dictate who is choosen for staff either. More often than not, the person that's been choosen for a staff position is the correct decison (unless you choose me). So all in all, it's been a trying day and it's getting rather hot so thumbs up.

Though I would train the staff up on forum structuring.

Freesteyelz
03 Jun 2006, 23:50
Anyone can pick up a copy of photoshop and add some drop shadows, bevels, strokes and whatnot.


Yes, but it's knowing when and how to use them that makes the difference.

hambil: That's total nonsense. Design has nothing to do with (X)HTML/CSS

WHAT?

Which is why you always see designers asking for people to code their layouts or sell things un coded.

This isn't true (referring to always). Many web-designers can and do code.

Ohiosweetheart
04 Jun 2006, 00:29
Yes. Also, this topic is for a public solution.

What solution?? The teams leaders are the team leaders. The teams have been chosen. The staff is what it is. Y'all aren't going to change that by publicly questioning why who was put on which team, by telling certain ones that either their coding, or design skills aren't "good enough" for them to be on staff.

Geezus people... why don't y'all stop posting these ridiculously inane threads, and let these people DO what they were put on staff do DO, rather than wasting their time making them defend themselves. I thought y'all wanted the "feel" of .org to get better. THIS ain't doing it.

Are a few people perhaps just a little bitter that they didn't get chosen ?


Let them deny it all they want to... I think that's exactly what this is about

Boofo
04 Jun 2006, 00:35
If only I was younger and you were desperate. ;)

peterska2
04 Jun 2006, 00:41
If only I was younger and you were desperate. ;)

I wondered why you had all gone quiet.

/me tells Boofo off for harrassing the young ladies.

EasyTarget
04 Jun 2006, 00:42
I didn't read this whole thread.. the other threads wore me out, but instead of having members choose the staff I think you should make sure you have input from the current staff. You should also make sure that your staff are people who will tell it like it is (to you, not to us members, we like the sugar coating) and that they aren't just 'yes men'.

Ohiosweetheart
04 Jun 2006, 00:43
But the last thing any decision maker needs to deal with is bickering and hostilities derived from strongly opposing opinions, or repetitive beating of the dead horse. It's too draining.

exactly!

If only I was younger and you were desperate. ;)

LOL... I'm 46... not quite desperate (yet), but you're too far away..waaaaaaaaaa ;)
/me tells peterska2 to let Boofo flirt with me all he wants to! lol

peterska2
04 Jun 2006, 00:49
LOL... I'm 46... not quite desperate (yet), but you're too far away..waaaaaaaaaa ;)
* Ohiosweetheart tells peterska2 to let Boofo flirt with me all he wants to! lol

/me is jealous coz you are the right side of the ocean

Boofo's mine I tell you, he's mine

MJM
04 Jun 2006, 01:21
Ya the best elections are when everyone is in agreement ;)

... like with shotgun weddings ;)

sabret00the
04 Jun 2006, 02:35
Interesting thread, i'll add my two cents and a tad late at that.

The administrators reserve the right to construct a team as they seem fit, however that said, given the layout of the team, your primary skill should be in that field anything else is senseless. however there's an exception when it comes to designing, given the context of vBulletin design there is no such thing as design without construction, so there will always be a key member that will oversee the procedure going from design to construction completion.

however i must say, some of the posts i've read saying that (i'm not only gonna paraphrase, i'll bastardise) we have other duties other than that or our key function is ludicrous. you're chosen as part of the coding team to primarily code, your other functions come secondary, especially those of which require liason with the customer. which in fact is actually the primary function of the customer support team. to say that FACTORX doesn't affect the ability to moderate and forums you're assigned to show minimal presence is in my opinion, ludicrous and defeats the points of the team seperation.

I wish all the new staff members well, and hope they'll do a fantastic job, however Dean said something i agree with when he said he doesn't think everyone's in the right team. I couldn't agree with that more.

I've been around the site for a long time and would like to see it prosper.

Oh and spam :(

Zachariah
04 Jun 2006, 02:46
EasyTarget,

All your staff are belong to us.

:D

/me goes back to code

sabret00the
04 Jun 2006, 11:17
:ermm: split thread

Boofo
04 Jun 2006, 12:00
:ermm: split thread

Just trying to lighten up the atmosphere here, sir. ;)

But you are right, those other posters need to stop the damn spamming! :cross-eyed:

/me is sorry

Ohiosweetheart
04 Jun 2006, 12:43
um, where did my posts from last night disappear to?

Boofo
04 Jun 2006, 12:59
I have them locked away in my jammies drawer. :)

Ohiosweetheart
04 Jun 2006, 13:20
:( there was a link and a zip file on there that I needed. What was the purpose of deleting them Boofo? You stated above that you're trying to lighten the mood of this thread. I think our posts accomplished that.

/me walks away wondering

peterska2
04 Jun 2006, 13:23
It was split from the thread and can be found here (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=117607)

Boofo
04 Jun 2006, 13:34
:( there was a link and a zip file on there that I needed. What was the purpose of deleting them Boofo? You stated above that you're trying to lighten the mood of this thread. I think our posts accomplished that.

* Ohiosweetheart walks away wondering

Sorry, wrong number in that one. I have no idea about any posts being deleted OR moved.

Ohiosweetheart
04 Jun 2006, 13:38
Sorry, wrong number in that one. I have no idea about any posts being deleted OR moved.

you're quite right sweetie. I wrongly thought that you were the one who moved them. My apologies.

Thanks Kerry for letting me know where they went :banana:

Boofo
04 Jun 2006, 13:42
you're quite right sweetie. But you didn't tell me where to find them either.

Thanks Kerri for letting me know where they went :banana:

If I didn't know they were deleted or moved, I wouldn't know where they are. Someone around here has a very dry sense of humor I take it and decided we were having too much fun. Damn us! ;)

Ohiosweetheart
04 Jun 2006, 20:58
LMAO... you're too quick on the draw Boofo... you quoted my post at the same time as I was editing it ;)

Boofo
04 Jun 2006, 21:04
Did you ever find out who moved them?

Ohiosweetheart
04 Jun 2006, 21:05
Did you ever find out who moved them?

nope, I've been at work all day, just got home. Whoever did tho.. it was silly.

peterska2
04 Jun 2006, 21:06
Did you ever find out who moved them?

Nope, I just know it wasn't me.

Dan
04 Jun 2006, 21:10
/me didn't move anything.

Boofo
04 Jun 2006, 21:17
Good Dan! ;)

sabret00the
04 Jun 2006, 22:23
:ermm: split thread again, this time with a twist of 'merge'.

MThornback
07 Jun 2006, 06:07
Most of this thread sounds more like sour grapes by people who feel left out....you Admin or Moderate a board already by virture of the fact you come here on a regular basis (safe assumption, no?) can't you be satisfied in that until there is a)a staff opening and/or b) you meet the criteria? To me it just makes good sense to give the new staffers more than oh...a week or two? before you call them out as unqualified...

Darat
07 Jun 2006, 11:00
/me sulks - he wanted to be the ruler of the cosmos

Ohiosweetheart
07 Jun 2006, 11:17
Lol.....