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EasyTarget
03 Jun 2006, 22:30
What exactly needs to be done/happen here on the .org for you guys to come back?

Points made in the thread:
More professionalism by the staff
help members to provide better feedback to coders
give coders more incentive to release hacks
encourage more coding discussion in the public forums
make it more challenging + rewarding to be a 'master coder'

Boofo
03 Jun 2006, 22:32
More cheese? :cross-eyed:

Azhrialilu
03 Jun 2006, 22:33
No, more vodka and sweeties

Shelley_c
03 Jun 2006, 22:38
For brad to give the graphic database it's own dedicated area. I'm sure they would come flooding back. Who's left btw?

Azhrialilu
03 Jun 2006, 22:39
I don't think graphics is the main reason people flock to org to be honest... you can get them anywhere *shrug*

Shelley_c
03 Jun 2006, 22:43
Anywhere but your forum? ;)

Azhrialilu
03 Jun 2006, 22:44
they can get them there when the site's open, I've been concentrating elsewhere... but vb.org isn't about my forum.

Shelley_c
03 Jun 2006, 22:48
they can get them there when the site's open, I've been concentrating elsewhere... but vb.org isn't about my forum.


Your getting lazy. Want me to design you another style? make it 3 for luck? :)

Anyway, Who left EasyTarget?

Azhrialilu
03 Jun 2006, 22:50
Think very hard about where you're trying to take this thread, Shelley and whether it's a path you really want to go down.

No, I don't want you to design another style. I've just finished designing two custom styles for clients so haven't had time to work on the site. And if we're being pernickety it was one and a half you did.

I'm not getting into a slanging match on here with you over something you obviously still have issues with. So let's keep it sweet shall we, huh? :)

*steps out of thread*

Shelley_c
03 Jun 2006, 23:06
I haven't got any issues with you. Believe that or not.

Now who actually left?

EasyTarget
03 Jun 2006, 23:40
I'm referring to the coders who over the last few weeks/months have pulled their hacks from the site and stopped submitting/supporting them. but others have done the same in the past, just not as quickly as seemed to have happened recently.

Ohiosweetheart
04 Jun 2006, 00:01
I don't think graphics is the main reason people flock to org to be honest... you can get them anywhere *shrug*

actually you can't get them just anywhere, and graphics is a BIG reason why quite a few vB users come to vb.org

EasyTarget
04 Jun 2006, 00:35
yea, I think if they paid more attention to the graphics area that people would use it a lot more.

I remember a discussion on the .com where I was suggesting that modified vb forums (thanks to the coders) account for a big portion of the vb sales. They said something like 85 or 90% of vb owners don't edit their code or templates. They mostly just changed the graphics. (but I was trying to make the point that the reason those 85/90% even purchased vb was because they saw a modified/hacked vb forum in the first place)

So basically there's a large group of vb owners who could really use a nice graphics/styles area here.

Corriewf
04 Jun 2006, 00:37
Make everyone a moderator.... So we can all just ban each other.

COBRAws
04 Jun 2006, 00:48
Actually, I dont care about graphics. My website is identiffied with some colours and I cant loose that strenght. So graphics is not all there is.

Most of the people left because of the staff replies they got. But even changing the staff, wont satisfy everyone. We all run boards and know how is it. You can never make everyon happy. And that is sad... in a way.

EasyTarget
04 Jun 2006, 00:49
You can never make everyon happy.but we can try :p

noppid
04 Jun 2006, 00:54
More cheese? :cross-eyed:

I'm not a member of the cheese group. Where do I apply? Do I have to post a recipe to become a member? Banana Split? :banana: Rabbit Stew? :bunny:

With cheese of course.

Gio~Logist
04 Jun 2006, 02:22
What exactly needs to be done/happen here on the .org for you guys to come back?

Just incase you thought i left, i haven't ;) Still here. An agreement has been made between Wayne, I, and a few others. You will soon be able to read about this when he gets around to posting it :p

tnguy3n
04 Jun 2006, 02:24
What exactly needs to be done/happen here on the .org for you guys to come back?
Lots of changes. I ain't quite catch up to all the new changes here. :D

Boofo
04 Jun 2006, 04:05
I'm not a member of the cheese group. Where do I apply? Do I have to post a recipe to become a member? Banana Split? :banana: Rabbit Stew? :bunny:

With cheese of course.

/me adds noppid to the cheese group. Welcome aboard, buddy!

Ohiosweetheart
04 Jun 2006, 05:35
LOL...funny Boofo!

Boofo
04 Jun 2006, 12:12
You want some cheese, too? ;)


/me thinks that has GOT to be his best pick-up line ever!

peterska2
04 Jun 2006, 13:16
/me refrains from telling Boofo how that sounds

I tell you what though, if some guy said that to me he wouldn't be able to ......

/me whistles off into the distance

Chris M
04 Jun 2006, 16:38
Violence solves nothing... It's funny though :D

Chris

Ohiosweetheart
04 Jun 2006, 21:31
You want some cheese, too? ;)


* Boofo thinks that has GOT to be his best pick-up line ever!

no thank you on the cheese, but.... uuhhhh... never mind... https://www.vbulletin.org/forum/

Boofo
04 Jun 2006, 23:14
no thank you on the cheese, but.... uuhhhh... never mind... http://www.exquisitelyerotic.net/forums/images/smilies/blush.gif


Hmmm.... Boofo does like his "tarts". ;)

MPDev
05 Jun 2006, 01:14
Sorry to go off track a little here, but if people have "left", how could they respond to your originial message?

Gio~Logist
05 Jun 2006, 01:22
Sorry to go off track a little here, but if people have "left", how could they respond to your originial message?

Priceless.

akanevsky
05 Jun 2006, 01:58
Sorry to go off track a little here, but if people have "left", how could they respond to your originial message?
By using a representative :)

Corriewf
05 Jun 2006, 02:32
I speak on behalf of all those that have left, Boofo please quit giving out goat cheese to everyone.....

Ohiosweetheart
05 Jun 2006, 03:42
Hmmm.... Boofo does like his "tarts". ;)rofl

Darat
05 Jun 2006, 10:42
I don't think graphics is the main reason people flock to org to be honest... you can get them anywhere *shrug*


Yeah but not of the quality of Shelley_c's!

redspider
05 Jun 2006, 10:50
I speak on behalf of all those that have left, Boofo please quit giving out goat cheese to everyone.....


and that is really funny lol but true no more cheese.:chinese:

Chris M
05 Jun 2006, 12:08
Mmmmm cheese :D

Chris

Zachariah
05 Jun 2006, 13:03
Send me a memo if there is an answer.

Kihon Kata
05 Jun 2006, 13:48
/me is very interested in agreements!

Just incase you thought i left, i haven't ;) Still here. An agreement has been made between Wayne, I, and a few others. You will soon be able to read about this when he gets around to posting it :p

tgreer
05 Jun 2006, 15:09
There are those who left, and those who decided to never participate in the first place. Things that I found off-putting:

1. The "staff" seemed less than professional. That's because they were/are: this isn't a professionally run forum. It's run by unpaid volunteers. While there are pros to this, there are also cons:


No/little accountability
personal agendas
personal attacks/arguments with members


I don't see that this is changed. Rather than Jelsoft hiring professional moderators to address the problem, the site has yet another iteration of "monkeys running the zoo".

2. A "l33t coder" mentality. A system where the titles are based on how many "hacks" have been authored, a private hidden "coders discussion" forum, an attitude that "if you can't make my hack work as is, then you shouldn't be installing hacks", etc. I don't see that this has been addressed at all.

3. An overly-complicated forum/sub-forum structure. I see that this has changed, but I'm not sure it's for the better. Apparently, there are now three separate programming/modification sub-forums? And graphic/style discussions are similar scattered.

lasto
05 Jun 2006, 15:47
What exactly needs to be done/happen here on the .org for you guys to come back?
how are they meant to read this if they left m8 ?

anyway not been following whats been going on and dont really care - seems people forget this board is here for the users who want to mod their vb boards - if people want to post hacks and help then thanks and we appreciate it but your not gods and wont be treated as such.Seen loads of posts where people have been ranting and taking their hacks off vb.org but end of day or month etc they be back as lets be fair here vb.org is the official site of all vb.hacks and i know there are spin offs boards but they dont cater for members like this board does.

If i was in charge id ignore the ones who threw their toys and carry on with updating the board as you are doing.Remember this board aint just about those who shout the loudest - its about helping the little man who needs the help with his/her board.And on vb.org there is many people who are willing to stand up and give help all for a little bit of thanks.

Now while im ranting - change the style - u changing everything else so treat us to a new skin that we`d be proud of :)

EasyTarget
05 Jun 2006, 15:50
There are those who left, and those who decided to never participate in the first place. Things that I found off-putting:

1. The "staff" seemed less than professional. That's because they were/are: this isn't a professionally run forum. It's run by unpaid volunteers. While there are pros to this, there are also cons:


No/little accountability
personal agendas
personal attacks/arguments with members


I don't see that this is changed. Rather than Jelsoft hiring professional moderators to address the problem, the site has yet another iteration of "monkeys running the zoo".

2. A "l33t coder" mentality. A system where the titles are based on how many "hacks" have been authored, a private hidden "coders discussion" forum, an attitude that "if you can't make my hack work as is, then you shouldn't be installing hacks", etc. I don't see that this has been addressed at all.

3. An overly-complicated forum/sub-forum structure. I see that this has changed, but I'm not sure it's for the better. Apparently, there are now three separate programming/modification sub-forums? And graphic/style discussions are similar scattered.I agree with some of those, but I don't think it's necessary to hire professional moderators in order to get professional type work. Many people have forums where they don't get $$, but they still have good moderation.

as far as the coder forum, what's wrong with having a private coder forum? (just wondering what the cons are to it)

how are they meant to read this if they left m8 ?I'm sure there's a lot that still browse around to see what's going on without releasing their work here, or there's people that know others who have left and can let them know.

as far as your other points, I disagree, it is about the coders, they should be treated differently than normal members and should have some perks (besides the basic benefits) here for releasing their work to us.

Ohiosweetheart
05 Jun 2006, 16:03
There are those who left, and those who decided to never participate in the first place. Things that I found off-putting:

1. The "staff" seemed less than professional. That's because they were/are: this isn't a professionally run forum. It's run by unpaid volunteers. While there are pros to this, there are also cons:

No/little accountability
personal agendas
personal attacks/arguments with members
I don't see that this is changed. Rather than Jelsoft hiring professional moderators to address the problem, the site has yet another iteration of "monkeys running the zoo".

2. A "l33t coder" mentality. A system where the titles are based on how many "hacks" have been authored, a private hidden "coders discussion" forum, an attitude that "if you can't make my hack work as is, then you shouldn't be installing hacks", etc. I don't see that this has been addressed at all.

3. An overly-complicated forum/sub-forum structure. I see that this has changed, but I'm not sure it's for the better. Apparently, there are now three separate programming/modification sub-forums? And graphic/style discussions are similar scattered.

I strongly disagree with your statements about the staff Tgreer. I feel that the staff here is top-notch.

But your #3 statements I DO agree with. the graphics/styles forums are all over the place... very poor placement there.

tgreer
05 Jun 2006, 16:34
I can see that my statements about the staff might cause all sorts of objections. It's always hard to say what you want to say, and get the "tone" correct. I don't know any of the staff personally. I'm sure they are great people, for the most part, trying to do a job as well as they can.

However, this site and the function it serves for vBulletin and the vBulletin community are too important to be run this way. Jelsoft owns it, but takes a "hands off" approach to running it? So instead you have an adhoc staffing community drawn directly from the membership, complete with all the baggage that must necessarily ensue in such an environment. I think that's wrong. I think vbulletin.com and vbulletin.org should be merged, and that JelSoft employees should staff it. Then you wouldn't have thinly disguised personality conflicts derailing the site's operation.

The private "coders discussion" serves to promote and reinforce the elitest, entitlement mentality I sense among many of the plugin authors. That mentality creates a barrier between hack authors and hack users. You say the site is about the coders? Hmm. Without someone willing and wanting to use your hacks, there'd be no reason to release them. Many want to seem to have a private "hackers only" club, and I think that is anathema to the site.

Chris M
05 Jun 2006, 17:32
While I agree that there have been times where personal agendas have intervened with what is correct and what is not to do with moderation duties (I know I am guilty of this at times, so I'm not taking this from a "mightier than thou" standpoint ;)), for the most part the staff here are very fair and are simply following the procedures and rules set out for us...

The main issue is lack of communication - There is little communication between the staff and the members generally, meaning that information about how this site and it's features are progressing is left in the dark, and it aggrivates a situation easily solved by spending 10 minutes maybe once every two weeks writing out a post and informing people how things are progressing...

Wherever you go, paid or volunteer, you are going to encounter personal differences between staff and members; While I agree that for the most part, employing staff to moderate this site would perhaps lessen the confrontations we have seen over recent months, it would not irradicate it entirely; When you are dealing with a site as specific in content such as this, part of a Moderator's duty is to know the in's and out's of this site, meaning taking from the active experienced membership is the only way of ensuring that a basic level of competance is achieved...

Chris

noppid
05 Jun 2006, 18:34
as far as your other points, I disagree, it is about the coders, they should be treated differently than normal members and should have some perks (besides the basic benefits) here for releasing their work to us.

I've said it before and now I'll say it again.

It should NOT be about the coders. It should be about the code.

Emabrace the code and the coder becomes secondary. After all, you are here for the functionality of code. Not to become the coders buddy.

Embracing the coder manifests the elitist attitudes. Open up the free code to the community, as the org is intended, and the code dominates, not the coders.

smacklan
05 Jun 2006, 18:46
I've said it before and now I'll say it again.

It should NOT be about the coders. It should be about the code.

Emabrace the code and the coder becomes secondary. After all, you are here for the functionality of code. Not to become the coders buddy.

Embracing the coder manifests the elitist attitudes. Open up the free code to the community, as the org is intended, and the code dominates, not the coders.
Very well said brother noppid! You have hit the perverbial nail on the head regarding this issue! :)

MPDev
05 Jun 2006, 21:10
It's all about the coders, imo. Without the coders, there would be no code to embrace.

noppid
05 Jun 2006, 21:19
It's all about the coders, imo. Without the coders, there would be no code to embrace.

A double edge sword. Quite the conundrum. :confused:

Freesteyelz
05 Jun 2006, 22:08
HUH? I come here to escape reality. :D

lasto
05 Jun 2006, 23:49
do people actually know what they are complaining about on here - VB.org has been quiet of late and can see why - what with everyone whinging about one thing or another - get a grip on the matter here,who cares if some decide to pull their hacks - more will come to replace them.
Put the coders in a different usergroup and call em CODERS - should keep em happy and put us mere users in a usergroup called - BEGGING for HELP

that way they feel good when they help us and everyone will be happy then :)

Boofo
06 Jun 2006, 04:21
It shouldn't be all about the coders OR the codees (is that even a word?). Without one, the other wouldn't exist. It needs to be about the community. We all need to work together as one and stop working against one another.

Freesteyelz
06 Jun 2006, 05:05
I dunno, Boofo. The "BEGGING FOR HELP" is rather catchy. :lick:

Boofo
06 Jun 2006, 05:09
I dunno, Boofo. The "BEGGING FOR HELP" is rather catchy. :lick:

It does have a ring to it but someone like me would have to belong to both groups then and I would get so confused. :(

Gio~Logist
06 Jun 2006, 05:11
It does have a ring to it but someone like me would have to belong to both groups then and I would get so confused. :(
Reminds me of the time i tried to explain rap music to you.

Corriewf
06 Jun 2006, 05:13
Reminds me of the time i tried to explain rap music to you.


Boofo can freestyle you know.... He called me once and did it.. Tell him boofo.

Boofo
06 Jun 2006, 05:15
Reminds me of the time i tried to explain rap music to you.

Maybe that's because there IS no explanation for RAP music. :cross-eyed:

Gio~Logist
06 Jun 2006, 05:17
Maybe that's because there IS no explanation for RAP music. :cross-eyed:
Who is boofo, boo who? Boofo. Boo what? boofo.

Coun't to fo' it's boofo. Burn down the roofo! I can rap mucho. Ew, no?

There's your explanation!

Corriewf
06 Jun 2006, 05:19
Did I ever tell you guys that Boofo sounds like the dude off West Coast Choppers on the phone? He does....

Freesteyelz
06 Jun 2006, 05:30
There can only be one Freesteyelz. :banana: I'd love to get back to the rap discussion :D but for now...


It does have a ring to it but someone like me would have to belong to both groups then and I would get so confused.



<if condition="THIS_PERSON == 'Boofo' AND THIS_TITLE == 'Coder'">
*Boofo is to be sane and not confused*
<else />
<if condition="THIS_PERSON == 'Boofo' AND THIS_TITLE == 'BEGGING FOR HELP">
*Boofo questions identity but sanity remains intact*
<else />
*Boofo is insane, questions identity, is confused but at least has his cheese*
</if></if>


:)

EasyTarget
06 Jun 2006, 05:32
I've said it before and now I'll say it again.

It should NOT be about the coders. It should be about the code.

Emabrace the code and the coder becomes secondary. After all, you are here for the functionality of code. Not to become the coders buddy.

Embracing the coder manifests the elitist attitudes. Open up the free code to the community, as the org is intended, and the code dominates, not the coders.
is the code just going to magically appear? There's a far more limited supply of coders willing to release their work(especially good coders) than there are people needing code.

I'm not saying treat coders as if they're better people for knowing how to code, I'm saying give them some perks, show some more appreciation. Don't expect code to be written for free, don't expect more people to come and replace people who have left. If people feel like their contributions don't mean anything or don't make a difference than they will in fact leave.

There's so many members that seem to think they are entitled to custom code, 24/7 support for all their questions and problems and that everything should happen on their schedule. Maybe there's some misunderstanding with many members that think the coders here are employees or something?

And no where in my posts did I refer to sucking up to coders or trying to become their buddies, etc. As you said, I am here for the code, but I'm not ignorant, I know there's a person on the other end who has to write the code. I don't have to kiss up to them, but I should respect the work they've done, the time they've put in and the fact that they're willing to share it with me.

As far as the private forum thing, why is that such a big deal? Do we even have to know about it? Do you have a forum with some sort of staff section that only you have access to? Does that give you an elitist attitude? Maybe there's some things that coders should be able to discuss behind closed doors, like how to deal with disrespectful members, pointing out security problems in a hack or even reprimanding someone for an elitist attitude :p

Boofo
06 Jun 2006, 05:35
There can only be one Freesteyelz. :banana: I'd love to get back to the rap discussion :D but for now...




<if condition="THIS_PERSON == 'Boofo' AND THIS_TITLE == 'Coder'">
*Boofo is to be sane and not confused*
<else />
<if condition="THIS_PERSON == 'Boofo' AND THIS_TITLE == 'BEGGING FOR HELP">
*Boofo questions identity but sanity remains intact*
<else />
*Boofo is insane, questions identity, is confused but at least has his cheese*
</if></if>


:)

That will work! In most instances, anyway. ;)

Freesteyelz
06 Jun 2006, 05:39
Coding and Designing teams, as Boofo rightfully stated, unite as one and get on the code! :D

Boofo
06 Jun 2006, 05:43
is the code just going to magically appear? There's a far more limited supply of coders willing to release their work(especially good coders) than there are people needing code.

I'm not saying treat coders as if they're better people for knowing how to code, I'm saying give them some perks, show some more appreciation. Don't expect code to be written for free, don't expect more people to come and replace people who have left. If people feel like their contributions don't mean anything or don't make a difference than they will in fact leave.

There's so many members that seem to think they are entitled to custom code, 24/7 support for all their questions and problems and that everything should happen on their schedule. Maybe there's some misunderstanding with many members that think the coders here are employees or something?

And no where in my posts did I refer to sucking up to coders or trying to become their buddies, etc. As you said, I am here for the code, but I'm not ignorant, I know there's a person on the other end who has to write the code. I don't have to kiss up to them, but I should respect the work they've done, the time they've put in and the fact that they're willing to share it with me.

As far as the private forum thing, why is that such a big deal? Do we even have to know about it? Do you have a forum with some sort of staff section that only you have access to? Does that give you an elitist attitude? Maybe there's some things that coders should be able to discuss behind closed doors, like how to deal with disrespectful members, pointing out security problems in a hack or even reprimanding someone for an elitist attitude :p

We are all the same, just some of us already know how to code and some of us don't. The ones that don't will be filling the shoes of the ones that do when they move on. It's a cycle. No one is above reproach here as this is a sharing and learning site. Some coders have a hard time admitting that they didn't know squat when they started out. If you feed their egos as you are suggesting, then that makes it even easier for them to not remember. I agree they should be shown the respect and admiration for their ability to code. By overdoing it is not the answer, either. There are enough egos floating around here as it is without compounding the problem. I little humility can be had by all from time to time.

Boofo
06 Jun 2006, 05:44
Who is boofo, boo who? Boofo. Boo what? boofo.

Coun't to fo' it's boofo. Burn down the roofo! I can rap mucho. Ew, no?

There's your explanation!

I stand by my post and this proves my point expertly. :cross-eyed:

Freesteyelz
06 Jun 2006, 06:40
There are enough egos floating around here

http://www.verysolutions.com/forums/images/smilies/toot.gif

EasyTarget
06 Jun 2006, 07:19
We are all the same, just some of us already know how to code and some of us don't. The ones that don't will be filling the shoes of the ones that do when they move on. It's a cycle. No one is above reproach here as this is a sharing and learning site. Some coders have a hard time admitting that they didn't know squat when they started out. If you feed their egos as you are suggesting, then that makes it even easier for them to not remember. I agree they should be shown the respect and admiration for their ability to code. By overdoing it is not the answer, either. There are enough egos floating around here as it is without compounding the problem. I little humility can be had by all from time to time.
how am I suggesting to feed their egos? what am I suggesting that is overdoing it? In fact, I don't think I've suggested anything besides giving respect, just everyone here is so caught up in thinking that all coders are egotistical that just mentioning respect for coders seems to mean I'm saying they're better than everyone else.

If you're read my some of my other threads you've seen that I thought people like amy and paul (from what I can tell their hacks are some of the most used) could polish the way they speak to members sometimes (same with zachery and chris.. if zachery is the same one at vbadvanced).

Just read the words that I'm writing without adding your own meaning and history here to them. I'm trying to be objective.. as you can tell I'm no coder and I'm not a moderator, I get no benefit for spending time in this part of the forums.

And that cycle (coders leave, members learn code and replace them) isn't really as global as you make it sound.. how many members, who don't know a thing about code, actually go on to become coders and release hacks here? (yes, I'm aware that there's a few, my point is that 90/95% or more don't)

Boofo
06 Jun 2006, 07:47
how am I suggesting to feed their egos? what am I suggesting that is overdoing it? In fact, I don't think I've suggested anything besides giving respect, just everyone here is so caught up in thinking that all coders are egotistical that just mentioning respect for coders seems to mean I'm saying they're better than everyone else.

If you're read my some of my other threads you've seen that I thought people like amy and paul (from what I can tell their hacks are some of the most used) could polish the way they speak to members sometimes (same with zachery and chris.. if zachery is the same one at vbadvanced).

Just read the words that I'm writing without adding your own meaning and history here to them. I'm trying to be objective.. as you can tell I'm no coder and I'm not a moderator, I get no benefit for spending time in this part of the forums.

And that cycle (coders leave, members learn code and replace them) isn't really as global as you make it sound.. how many members, who don't know a thing about code, actually go on to become coders and release hacks here? (yes, I'm aware that there's a few, my point is that 90/95% or more don't)

Ok, let me ask you this then? Do you think that all of the coders here came here knowing how to code? Some will claim they did, and some of them are blowing smoke in that claim. There are a few who did, yes, but not nearly as many as you would think there is. The coders today or no more important than the coders of tomorrow are is all I'm saying. We don't have the same community spirit now that we used to have when I started (Yes, the Chen days is what I am speaking of). Everyone seems to have gotten off track with all the "us and them" talk of late. And the main problem is exactly what most of them are complaining about./ the lack of respect and acknowledgment.

I Don't care about the respect of acknowledgment, myself, as I am old enough to know that coding ability has very little to do with that in the real world. That and that fact that I suck at coding. ;)

So, I am not adding any more meaning to your words than what I read into them, like anyone will read. ;)

kall
06 Jun 2006, 07:53
Do you think that all of the coders here came here knowing how to code? Some will claim they did, and some of them are blowing smoke in that claim.
I'm one that came here knowing veeeery little about code. :)

I currently know only a small amount...I can read it and know what it does, but coming up with anything radically new is beyond me.

My hat is off to everyone who releases something new that someone else finds useful.

Boofo
06 Jun 2006, 07:59
I'm one that came here knowing veeeery little about code. :)

I currently know only a small amount...I can read it and know what it does, but coming up with anything radically new is beyond me.

My hat is off to everyone who releases something new that someone else finds useful.

Exactly! And that is the way it should be. For everyone. If more people felt that way, the "them and us" crap might never have ever gotten started. ;)

Revan
06 Jun 2006, 09:50
is the code just going to magically appear? There's a far more limited supply of coders willing to release their work(especially good coders) than there are people needing code.

I'm not saying treat coders as if they're better people for knowing how to code, I'm saying give them some perks, show some more appreciation. Don't expect code to be written for free, don't expect more people to come and replace people who have left. If people feel like their contributions don't mean anything or don't make a difference than they will in fact leave.

There's so many members that seem to think they are entitled to custom code, 24/7 support for all their questions and problems and that everything should happen on their schedule. Maybe there's some misunderstanding with many members that think the coders here are employees or something?

And no where in my posts did I refer to sucking up to coders or trying to become their buddies, etc. As you said, I am here for the code, but I'm not ignorant, I know there's a person on the other end who has to write the code. I don't have to kiss up to them, but I should respect the work they've done, the time they've put in and the fact that they're willing to share it with me.

As far as the private forum thing, why is that such a big deal? Do we even have to know about it? Do you have a forum with some sort of staff section that only you have access to? Does that give you an elitist attitude? Maybe there's some things that coders should be able to discuss behind closed doors, like how to deal with disrespectful members, pointing out security problems in a hack or even reprimanding someone for an elitist attitude :pAgree++;
Besides, I hear rumours that there's a designer forum available and hidden, but I have never in my life heard anyone whining about how everybody can't access this.
Disclaimer: I dont know if it exists, I just heard it randomly mentioned in a post somewhere.

We are all the same, just some of us already know how to code and some of us don't. The ones that don't will be filling the shoes of the ones that do when they move on. It's a cycle. No one is above reproach here as this is a sharing and learning site. Some coders have a hard time admitting that they didn't know squat when they started out. If you feed their egos as you are suggesting, then that makes it even easier for them to not remember. I agree they should be shown the respect and admiration for their ability to code. By overdoing it is not the answer, either. There are enough egos floating around here as it is without compounding the problem. I little humility can be had by all from time to time.I came to the org knowing sod all about coding. I had done a simple if...else chain to add a variable to a template on a wBB board.
My first thread here was this (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=67708), and even though that thread implies that I knew coding just because I had worked on the conversion, trust me it doesnt.
I had hassled with the problem the thread was about for 3 months, and it was fixed by changing a complicated for() to a simple while().
Nobody with coding knowledge was able to help, as you can see per the thread. True, I fixed it on my own in such a short time that there wasn't much chance for people to reply, but still.

My point? My point is that I have no problems with admitting that just two years ago I was PHP illiterate, my HTML/JS knowledge could make even Boofo laugh (and would probably make K-A cry :p) and yet I am pro-giving coders/designers perks for contributing to the site.

As for the ego argument, it is very true that some will take on a holier than thou attitude. But even if you strip away everything, make coders have the Member branch of titles, take away the private forum, everything, those people will still have said attitude. They will just ahve a harder time showing it off, which IMO is counter-productive as it hurts the coders that just wants to feel appreciated by the staff without walking around on clouds.
If one would say that coders shouldnt need to feel appreciated because contributing to the community is its own reward and whatnot, then I call bs. As a coder of a Major Addon, I know first hand how demanding some users can be. And how many such users flock to your hacks. It's just nice to have something to fall back on, something to take your mind off the users that piss you off.

Im not saying that coders should have to be sacrificed a firstborn to in order to be communicated with, Im just saying I can't see any severe con to giving them some extra benefits beyond a private forum and a title. After all, time and time again customers have said that they choose vB because of the hacks available to it, and until the day where vB codes everything under the sun and offers it as modules for the stock software, coders are needed.
Yes coders will be replaced, eventually. Keyword eventually. If I were to take my RPG away today, do you honestly think that tomorrow someone would recode one from scratch and offer it here for free? No, and in the between time, the users would be on their own. Im just saying that if anything can be done to prevent coders/designers from leaving and it doesn't sound ludicrous (such as "give coders a free vB lic" does), I see no immediate reason why it can't be done.


Just my NOK 0,0033 (rougly converted)
Request: Unless I am mistaken, I avoided using sarcasm in this post. If you are going to reply, please try to do the same. Not only is sarcasm harder to detect in text, it doesn't promote a healthy, "cold" debate.
Thank you for understanding.

Boofo
06 Jun 2006, 10:14
Agree++;
Besides, I hear rumours that there's a designer forum available and hidden, but I have never in my life heard anyone whining about how everybody can't access this.
Disclaimer: I dont know if it exists, I just heard it randomly mentioned in a post somewhere.

I came to the org knowing sod all about coding. I had done a simple if...else chain to add a variable to a template on a wBB board.
My first thread here was this (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=67708), and even though that thread implies that I knew coding just because I had worked on the conversion, trust me it doesnt.
I had hassled with the problem the thread was about for 3 months, and it was fixed by changing a complicated for() to a simple while().
Nobody with coding knowledge was able to help, as you can see per the thread. True, I fixed it on my own in such a short time that there wasn't much chance for people to reply, but still.

My point? My point is that I have no problems with admitting that just two years ago I was PHP illiterate, my HTML/JS knowledge could make even Boofo laugh (and would probably make K-A cry :p) and yet I am pro-giving coders/designers perks for contributing to the site.

As for the ego argument, it is very true that some will take on a holier than thou attitude. But even if you strip away everything, make coders have the Member branch of titles, take away the private forum, everything, those people will still have said attitude. They will just ahve a harder time showing it off, which IMO is counter-productive as it hurts the coders that just wants to feel appreciated by the staff without walking around on clouds.
If one would say that coders shouldnt need to feel appreciated because contributing to the community is its own reward and whatnot, then I call bs. As a coder of a Major Addon, I know first hand how demanding some users can be. And how many such users flock to your hacks. It's just nice to have something to fall back on, something to take your mind off the users that piss you off.

Im not saying that coders should have to be sacrificed a firstborn to in order to be communicated with, Im just saying I can't see any severe con to giving them some extra benefits beyond a private forum and a title. After all, time and time again customers have said that they choose vB because of the hacks available to it, and until the day where vB codes everything under the sun and offers it as modules for the stock software, coders are needed.
Yes coders will be replaced, eventually. Keyword eventually. If I were to take my RPG away today, do you honestly think that tomorrow someone would recode one from scratch and offer it here for free? No, and in the between time, the users would be on their own. Im just saying that if anything can be done to prevent coders/designers from leaving and it doesn't sound ludicrous (such as "give coders a free vB lic" does), I see no immediate reason why it can't be done.


Just my NOK 0,0033 (rougly converted)
Request: Unless I am mistaken, I avoided using sarcasm in this post. If you are going to reply, please try to do the same. Not only is sarcasm harder to detect in text, it doesn't promote a healthy, "cold" debate.
Thank you for understanding.

See? This is the kind of posts we need from more coders. I heartily agree there should be more recognition for coders, I always have. I just don't think erecting a monument or giving them free cheese (hmmmm... cheese) is the answer (unless your name is Boofo, of course, and then the monument better be a big one with something like... "you are my God and I wanna be like you when I grow up" somewhere on it).

By the way, there was no sarcasm anywhere in my post. I was serious about my monument.

Revan
06 Jun 2006, 10:17
See? This is the kind of posts we need from more coders. I heartily agree there should be more recognition for coders, I always have.Oh, I must have misunderstood your previous posts (or not read them well enough), my bad :)
I just don't think erecting a monument or giving them free cheese (hmmmm... cheese) is the answer (unless your name is Boofo, of course, and then the monument better be a big one with something like... "you are my God and I wanna be like you when I grow up" somewhere on it).

By the way, there was no sarcasm anywhere in my post. I was serious about my monument.I agree on the monument of Boofo but I think it should be more like "kids if you ever turn out like this imma come smack you" :p

Boofo
06 Jun 2006, 10:25
Oh, I must have misunderstood your previous posts (or not read them well enough), my bad :)

I'm sure most of them don't come off the way I meant them at the time. I just get sick of the "us and them" comparisons all the time, you know what I mean?

I agree on the monument of Boofo but I think it should be more like "kids if you ever turn out like this imma come smack you" :p

We definitely need to have a talk, son. I have earned that monument by putting up with abuse just like this for sooooo long. :(

JayJay
06 Jun 2006, 10:37
Whilst I agree with the recent posts by Revan, I wish to throw in an additional aspect that has not been looked at in any detail in this thread.

There's a part in which us 'normal' members can play, and that is through making qualitative posts on modification threads - especially when asking for help. How many times have you seen somebody say that a coder's modification just doesn't work, yet doesn't explain the problem that they are facing? Surely this aggrovates the coder. With more members here at .org than there possibly has been in the past, this sort of thing is probably far more evidential than it was in the past.

There is also another aspect, which I'm sure is trying to be avoided because of the type of debate that arises from it due to a lack of understanding, and that is through normal members giving a little back to the coders themselves through small donations here and there to those modifications that make our lives, as administrators of our own communities, so much easier!

At vB.org we are a community, and that is something which we should not lose sight of. As such, we all have our parts to play (be it the Cheese Meister or the person who is required to erect Boofo's monument) and should not be naive to that fact and start blaming the staff here (who give up endless amounts of time - in addition to other commitments) for what can appear as a mass-exodus to those who know the coders who have left.

Just to reilliterate, it is a loss to see some good coders leave and they are more than welcome back (as is anybody) here and maybe one day they will return. However, in the meantime, it is vital that as a community we work with what we have;

"Treasure what you have, as you could lose it at any moment".

(Boofo, don't tell me that brought a tear to your eye please ;))

Boofo
06 Jun 2006, 10:41
(Boofo, don't tell me that brought a tear to your eye please ;))

I'm a man, dammit! Things like that have no effect on me. :cross-eyed:

/me runs for the Kleenex like a wimped-out sissy!

peterska2
06 Jun 2006, 10:47
My point? My point is that I have no problems with admitting that just two years ago I was PHP illiterate, my HTML/JS knowledge could make even Boofo laugh (and would probably make K-A cry :p) and yet I am pro-giving coders/designers perks for contributing to the site.


Hey I totally understand that.

I knew absolutely zip about HTML, CSS, JS or PHP when I first started out. A trip down memory lane just confirms this:
My 3rd post on the site (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showpost.php?p=710195&postcount=7)
My first modification (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?p=710378#post710378)

Looking back now, I cringe. But there were people who helped me to learn then, so I help other people where I can.

My PHP is still very limited, but I can create a product to include a custom template.

What I'm trying to say (and not making a very good job of it :( ), is that if experienced vBulletin users (doesn't have to be coders for some things) help others out when they ask questions or get stuck, then in turn as they learn they will do the same. Some people might head into coding (PHP or HTML), some into skinning, but others will be happy realising that they have learned a little bit and can get by.

The other thing is that it doesn't matter how experienced a user or coder you are, you can still make mistakes or not know the answer to something. I've made one yesterday which I hadn't even realised. The problem was easily solved, but it puzzled me why the person should be getting an error. In fact someone else pointed out why, which I appreciated.

The whole idea of a community is to help each other, and sometimes things are not quick fixes, or someone can hash together a quick fix for something while a better permanent fix is sorted out. Some of the most common questions that come up are things that are set by vB Options and most vB Admins should be able to answer them questions. Admittedly, you might have to look something up, but everyone has to check things from time to time anyway, even the Jelsoft staff at vB.com get things wrongs sometimes so don't worry, if everyone just does their best then everyone will be able to help someone even if it is in the smallest way possible.


(eeek it took me that long to get my wording and sentiment right - plus being disturbed by the phone - that the world and his wife has already posted!)

Revan
06 Jun 2006, 11:25
I'm sure most of them don't come off the way I meant them at the time. I just get sick of the "us and them" comparisons all the time, you know what I mean?Yeah I hear ya on that one, after all (in spite of what you like to think) you are only human :p
But on that "us and them" aspect, I don't think that the fact that there is an "us and them" aspect that's the problem. Humans are like that, I believe. We like to stick people in containers and label them. The problem is that we shouldn't double NY-lock shut the doors to anyone who wish to sniff around our container :p If that even made sense.
And I am fully aware of the fact that the above sounds a bit hypocritical coming from me, given the fact that my post count in the PHP/XHTML/JS forum is pretty darn low, and I don't have any good excuses as to why that is so.
We definitely need to have a talk, son. I have earned that monument by putting up with abuse just like this for sooooo long. :(Hey your the one who blocked ME on MSN remember? You walked out on ME, so don't be putting the blame on me mister! You said it was over, so I said fine, then you said fine. YOU started it! :cry:
My 3rd post on the site (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showpost.php?p=710195&postcount=7)
/me tries to restrain the laughter :p
Nah seriously, it's amazing how far we have gotten isn't it? :)

Boofo
06 Jun 2006, 11:31
Hey your the one who blocked ME on MSN remember? You walked out on ME, so don't be putting the blame on me mister! You said it was over, so I said fine, then you said fine. YOU started it! :cry:

And not one lick of spousal support either. :(

Revan
06 Jun 2006, 11:35
And not one lick of spousal support either. :(What would you have me do? I was hurt and angry :(

Boofo
06 Jun 2006, 11:36
What would you have me do? I was hurt and angry :(

I suppose we could kiss and make up and long as you promise not to tell a soul and ruin my manly image. Shhhhh...

Revan
06 Jun 2006, 11:39
I suppose we could kiss and make up and long as you promise not to tell a soul and ruin my manly image. Shhhhh...Sounds like a deal.
/me gives Boofo a man-hug to keep up appearances

peterska2
06 Jun 2006, 11:44
* Revan tries to restrain the laughter :p
Nah seriously, it's amazing how far we have gotten isn't it? :)

Yeah, I dream in div's classes and tables now! I even catch myself talking in if conditions from time to time. I did in the supermarket on Friday with my Dad.

Dad: What do you want for tea?
Me: if chips then chicken else lasagne
Dad: You what?????

I love diging out some of my really early stuff and laughing at it. Maybe one day I'll be able to stop laughing long enough to see about making it work with 3.6 (I won't get it done before then, I can promise that) and making the code all pretty like I do these days.

Revan
06 Jun 2006, 11:47
Yeah, I dream in div's classes and tables now!As long as they are XHTML 1.1 Strict compliant.
I even catch myself talking in if conditions from time to time. I did in the supermarket on Friday with my Dad.

Dad: What do you want for tea?
Me: if chips then chicken else lasagne
Dad: You what?????ROFL! XD
I love diging out some of my really early stuff and laughing at it. Maybe one day I'll be able to stop laughing long enough to see about making it work with 3.6 (I won't get it done before then, I can promise that) and making the code all pretty like I do these days.I hate looking at my early day stuff, I feel so dumb :p I just know that its there and I used to be dumb, thats all I want to know XD

pojo2
06 Jun 2006, 12:52
I think that many many of the replies to this thread shows the problems with the forum.

Find a chit chat site for the non issue remarks and help folks who come here for assistance not nonsensical chatter.

But hey that is just my opinion.

noppid
06 Jun 2006, 15:07
is the code just going to magically appear? There's a far more limited supply of coders willing to release their work(especially good coders) than there are people needing code.

I'm not saying treat coders as if they're better people for knowing how to code, I'm saying give them some perks, show some more appreciation. Don't expect code to be written for free, don't expect more people to come and replace people who have left. If people feel like their contributions don't mean anything or don't make a difference than they will in fact leave.

There's so many members that seem to think they are entitled to custom code, 24/7 support for all their questions and problems and that everything should happen on their schedule. Maybe there's some misunderstanding with many members that think the coders here are employees or something?

And no where in my posts did I refer to sucking up to coders or trying to become their buddies, etc. As you said, I am here for the code, but I'm not ignorant, I know there's a person on the other end who has to write the code. I don't have to kiss up to them, but I should respect the work they've done, the time they've put in and the fact that they're willing to share it with me.

As far as the private forum thing, why is that such a big deal? Do we even have to know about it? Do you have a forum with some sort of staff section that only you have access to? Does that give you an elitist attitude? Maybe there's some things that coders should be able to discuss behind closed doors, like how to deal with disrespectful members, pointing out security problems in a hack or even reprimanding someone for an elitist attitude :p


A community of non coders can not grow into a community of coders if the coder discussions that they may learn from are hidden.

You make some good points, but the whole "community" thing is a flawed concept when there is segregation of the learing class from the we already know class.

In normal society it's called oppression when the haves and the have nots become too far seperated.

Furthermore when the staff incites the peanut gallery to play as minions, playfully in spite of a serious thread, making light of the subject for entertainment, the writing is on the wall.

tgreer
06 Jun 2006, 15:34
Agreed... that's what I mean by my statements that this site isn't run professionally. When a thread gets hijacked into meaningless banter by the staff itself, what hope is there for anything here to be done in a mature, professional manner? The signal-to-noise ratio is horrible here. Guess I'll check back in another 3-6 months.

EasyTarget
06 Jun 2006, 17:45
A community of non coders can not grow into a community of coders if the coder discussions that they may learn from are hidden.There's still forums to talk about coding which are open to everyone.

Revan
06 Jun 2006, 17:49
If someone were to talk quantum physics with someone else on a level of 2+ years of experience, I would understand less than if I asked the questions I had regarding advancing my own knowledge.

noppid
06 Jun 2006, 18:17
There's still forums to talk about coding which are open to everyone.

So what!? If they only people taking there are the have nots and the haves are hidden behind closed doors, how does that inspire community participation?

What it does is leave a group of people out in the cold hoping to be tossed a bone when they need it by the other group. Maybe if they could read the 1337 coders forum they could just read and solve their own problem?

What's the big secret?

When the flow of information is hindered, the big .org community idea is meerly propaganda.

Bubble #5
06 Jun 2006, 18:22
I don't think graphics is the main reason people flock to org to be honest... you can get them anywhere *shrug*

graphics is a BIG reason why quite a few vB users come to vb.org

I've got to agree with Azhrialilu on this. vB.org has always been primarily about the best code hacks and lasagna... well maybe not so much about the lasagna, but that could change any day now :bunny:

Revan
06 Jun 2006, 19:23
So what!? If they only people taking there are the have nots and the haves are hidden behind closed doors, how does that inspire community participation?

What it does is leave a group of people out in the cold hoping to be tossed a bone when they need it by the other group. Maybe if they could read the 1337 coders forum they could just read and solve their own problem?

What's the big secret?

When the flow of information is hindered, the big .org community idea is meerly propaganda.You blatantly ignored my post didn't you... Or is it simply ignorance on your part? I have not seen a single thread in the coders discussion forum that could possibly be of any use to a newbie learning. Please point me to one, or if you are unable to do so, please stop acting like we possess the Holy Grail in there but refuse to let anyone else have a drink.

Boofo
06 Jun 2006, 19:36
Furthermore when the staff incites the peanut gallery to play as minions, playfully in spite of a serious thread, making light of the subject for entertainment, the writing is on the wall.

Well, I'm not going to defend my actions, but will suggest that you need to lighten up. Too much serious talk is what got us to this point in the first place. When a thread gets to flogging a dead horse, so the speak, it is time to move on and make things happens instead of just complaining about them. A little humor goes alot further than tempers flaring. I will refrain from any humor in this thread in the future. Now you'll have to find someone other than Staff to blame. ;)

Freesteyelz
06 Jun 2006, 20:32
But on that "us and them" aspect, I don't think that the fact that there is an "us and them" aspect that's the problem. Humans are like that, I believe. We like to stick people in containers and label them.

We "label" people as a way to help us identify, associate and categorize them. There is a natural human tendency to want to compete against one another but that has everything to do with the growth of the whole and not the individual. What's more powerful, however, is the need to relate to one another, human being to human being.

The "us and them" is nothing more than ego-trippin'. It has everything to do with looking down on those who do not fit into a particular group. It's about clashing. There is no resolve to this kind of attitude, just animosity, hatred and disgust. Having an ego is one thing (we all have it and it is a good thing to have) but the whole superiority complex of we stick our claim because we're better than you gets old.

In a successful business the heads of companies value every employee, client and customer. They understand the rules that everyone has a role. Sure, some roles are more important than others but all of the people are treated with respect and dignity. See, everyone wants to feel and be important.

This community (vB.org) is important to all of us in some way. By treating everyone else with the highest quality can only benefit the community we share. :)

tgreer
06 Jun 2006, 20:46
You blatantly ignored my post didn't you... Or is it simply ignorance on your part? I have not seen a single thread in the coders discussion forum that could possibly be of any use to a newbie learning. Please point me to one, or if you are unable to do so, please stop acting like we possess the Holy Grail in there but refuse to let anyone else have a drink.

Define "newbie"? I'm an experienced, professional programmer, have been for many years. I'm new to vBulletin, yes, but not PHP or SQL, or web development in general. There have been several times when I've done a web search for a vBulletin topic/question, been directed to the archived Coders Discussion, come here to find I couldn't access it. In one such instance, I had to PM someone from the archive thread (who, it turns out, was very helpful; they just didn't read the "other" sections to know I had a similar question).

I would turn your question around: what discussion in the private, hidden coder's forum, needs to be private and hidden? The question about which function detects spiderbots? The link to the sitepoint thread about OOP? I don't see any thread in there that couldn't/shouldn't be posted in a public programming forum.

You assume that people who don't release hacks here are "newbies" and thus couldn't fathom your code. That's ridiculous. That forum should be closed and all of the threads moved to the "Programming Discussions" forum.

COBRAws
06 Jun 2006, 20:47
It's all about the coders, imo. Without the coders, there would be no code to embrace.
actually, you need a backend for code to display and be readable ;) Its like a car having no wheels

Revan
06 Jun 2006, 21:32
Define "newbie"? I'm an experienced, professional programmer, have been for many years. I'm new to vBulletin, yes, but not PHP or SQL, or web development in general. There have been several times when I've done a web search for a vBulletin topic/question, been directed to the archived Coders Discussion, come here to find I couldn't access it. In one such instance, I had to PM someone from the archive thread (who, it turns out, was very helpful; they just didn't read the "other" sections to know I had a similar question).I define newbie as a person new to PHP/MySQL, or with such limited knowledge of said languages that vBulletin context provides a bigger confusion than standalone code.
I would turn your question around: what discussion in the private, hidden coder's forum, needs to be private and hidden? The question about which function detects spiderbots? The link to the sitepoint thread about OOP? I don't see any thread in there that couldn't/shouldn't be posted in a public programming forum.To take the sitepoint OOP thread as an example, it couldn't be posted in the public "programming forum" because said place is not fit for discussion. That is for asking questions, or so I believe since the "PHP/SQL/HTML" forum has been eradicated in the latest forum restructure.
Now I am fairly certain that the coder posting the link (I havent seen the thread in question) didn't have some form of newbie question (read above definition) regarding OOP or that thread in general, and therefore it is only natural to assume that said coder wanted to open up a discussion amongst his fellow coders regarding what the article states and whether or not any coders planned to implement some of the strategies in said thread.
You assume that people who don't release hacks here are "newbies" and thus couldn't fathom your code. That's ridiculous. That forum should be closed and all of the threads moved to the "Programming Discussions" forum.I find this offensive. Your assumptions of my thoughts or meanings are not only completely off the mark, but they also try to make me look bad. Please refrain from making such assumptions in the future. If you have any questions about some of what I write, don't be afraid to ask.
Now let me clarify: I don't give a shit if a member is a PHP developer (ie. deleveloping the actual software) or has 20+ years on his back in the computer business doing PHP and all other forms of web coding with or without vBulletin. If the member does not care to contribute to the community, I see no reason why said member should be allowed to partake in discussion between contributors. Not to mention the fact that the Coders Discussion forums can be used to discuss security vulnerabilities in one of the coders' hacks; information at least I would not wish to be disclosed to the general public. As an example, Alan-CIT yesterday helped me fix one such vulnerability in one of my hacks, and while this did not happen in the CD forum, it very well could have.

Dean C
06 Jun 2006, 22:38
There have been several times when I've done a web search for a vBulletin topic/question, been directed to the archived Coders Discussion, come here to find I couldn't access it.

Nonsense, this forum has only been private for a week or two.

tgreer
06 Jun 2006, 22:46
Nonsense, this forum has only been private for a week or two.

Which is why old discussions, which have been archived, still show up in Google Search results. Come here to find them, though, and the door is closed.

...To take the sitepoint OOP thread as an example, it couldn't be posted in the public "programming forum" because said place is not fit for discussion...

...If the member does not care to contribute to the community, I see no reason why said member should be allowed to partake in discussion between contributors...

And there it is. And you wonder about all the complaints regarding an elitist, cliqueish attitude here? I thought that was one of things that was going to be fixed. Evidently not.

Not to mention the fact that the Coders Discussion forums can be used to discuss security vulnerabilities in one of the coders' hacks; information at least I would not wish to be disclosed to the general public.

I disagree strongly - I advocate full disclosure of security issues, so that those affected can take immediate action. Why hide such issues behind closed doors? If I'm running a plugin with a security hole, I'd hope that the plugin author would make a public posting of the specific issue, steps being taken to address it, and a timeframe for the fix.

I think what it boils down to is that some coders want a semi-private cloister where they can code and hack without being bothered by newbies, except insofar as said newbies gratefully install their hacks. You know, part of me sympathizes with that. I just don't think that's what .org is meant to be. That can't be what JelSoft intends, especially when the default answer to most questions on .com is "ask over at vbulletin.org". This is, for better or not, the "official" site for custom vbulletin development. To me, that means a few things, including active, open coding discussions, and professional moderation. For those who want a private 1337-coderz club, I would say "it's time to grow up".

I would say that, but apparently I'm in the minority. So, time for me to slink back into the woodwork, and rely on vbulletin-faq and vbhackers and daniweb...

noppid
06 Jun 2006, 23:46
You lost me at... "I find this offensive" and then went on to say you "don't give a shit", Revan.

Actions like that are the pinnacle of the problem.

License holders should not be supject to segregation nor such elitist demeaning attitudes. .org is either an open development enviorment or not.

smacklan
07 Jun 2006, 00:23
I would say that, but apparently I'm in the minority. So, time for me to slink back into the woodwork, and rely on vbulletin-faq and vbhackers and daniweb...

You aren't in the minority, I assure you. The "general population" membership of this site will move on to other sites that operate more professionally and less like a "coders club"...it is simply a matter of time unless this culture is turned around.

EasyTarget
07 Jun 2006, 03:38
members are not going to leave, stop spreading gloom and doom.. members will come because this is the best place to get modifications. If the coders leave, then the members will follow. (number of hacks released/number of quality hacks released will go down, less content on the site, less reason for people to come)

You guys make it sound like members and newbies can't ask coding questions anymore if there's a private forum for coders. Nothing is going to stop people from asking questions nor from people answering them.

noppid
07 Jun 2006, 03:58
members are not going to leave, stop spreading gloom and doom.. members will come because this is the best place to get modifications. If the coders leave, then the members will follow. (number of hacks released/number of quality hacks released will go down, less content on the site, less reason for people to come)

You guys make it sound like members and newbies can't ask coding questions anymore if there's a private forum for coders. Nothing is going to stop people from asking questions nor from people answering them.

While that may be true, what is the point of any closed discussion on an open development forum? Especially when, as license holders, we are all sent here equally to get modification information.

Boofo
07 Jun 2006, 04:02
You aren't in the minority, I assure you. The "general population" membership of this site will move on to other sites that operate more professionally and less like a "coders club"...it is simply a matter of time unless this culture is turned around.

I assure you that there will only be a few that move on as the general population here really doesn't think one way of the other about what a few members are complaining about.

Gio~Logist
07 Jun 2006, 04:05
I'm sorry, i just find it a waste of time to argue about making the coder's forum public. Coders sometimes would like to discuss things among coders. Take away that forum, people will just pm each other. Either way, some things are best discusssed amongst you would like to discuss them with. Nothing you guys say or do can obligate a member to post things to the public.

noppid
07 Jun 2006, 04:08
I assure you that there will only be a few that move on as the general population here really doesn't think one way of the other about what a few members are complaining about.

As license holders who are encouraged to come here, we are all equal. You should care. The corporation you represent should care.

That is what this is about, treating all license holders as equals.

I cannot for the life of me comprehend why anyone in this organization would segregate it's customers or support any kind of closed discussion that is intended to be open in the big picture for the benefit of the customers.

I'm sorry, i just find it a waste of time to argue about making the coder's forum public. Coders sometimes would like to discuss things among coders. Take away that forum, people will just pm each other. Either way, some things are best discusssed amongst you would like to discuss them with. Nothing you guys say or do can obligate a member to post things to the public.

And that's all good if it happens. The license holders that are sent here sould not be segregated.

Gio~Logist
07 Jun 2006, 04:11
As license holders who are encouraged to come here, we are all equal. You should care. The corporation you represent should care.

That is what this is about, treating all license holders as equals.

I cannot for the life of me comprehend why anyone in this organization would segregate it's customers or support any kind of closed discussion that is intended to be open in the big picture for the benefit of the customers.



And that's all good if it happens. The license holders that are sent here sould not be segregated.

Honestly, this is me just being curious. The staff forum that they have here is probably generally used for staff to discuss positive changes around here, that benefit us customers. Would you like them to make that public as well?

And that's all good if it happens. The license holders that are sent here sould not be segregated.

The general license holder is in no way being segregated. Last time i checked, a coder has to actually give back to the community in order to even be a coder. If anything, the coders forum allows coders to speak among themselves in order to better serve "the license holders". Remember, we are general customers and license holders to.

noppid
07 Jun 2006, 04:32
Honestly, this is me just being curious. The staff forum that they have here is probably generally used for staff to discuss positive changes around here, that benefit us customers. Would you like them to make that public as well?


No, that is company business. I don't expect them to show me their opnions being discussed about this or any other topic. I expect them to treat everyone they sell a license to in the same way though in public.


The general license holder is in no way being segregated. Last time i checked, a coder has to actually give back to the community in order to even be a coder. If anything, the coders forum allows coders to speak among themselves in order to better serve "the license holders". Remember, we are general customers and license holders to.

When one license holder can access information another can't, that's segregation.

EasyTarget
07 Jun 2006, 06:16
we're not all equal here.. I can't code and I have no desire to have access to the coders forum. If they need or want a place to talk among themselves, let them have it.. who cares?

Just think of the coding forum as a private forum for those who help with the site by releasing code, just as the moderators have a private forum for those who help with the site by doing whatever they do.

Revan
07 Jun 2006, 08:38
And there it is. And you wonder about all the complaints regarding an elitist, cliqueish attitude here? I thought that was one of things that was going to be fixed. Evidently not.Yes, because giving small perks in return for contributing to this site is BAD. Oh please.
As another example, say that the administrator of very large forums like TAZ or some other board joined you forum. Would you immediately give him access to the Mod/Admin forums just because he knows how to administrate a forum? This is no different, beyond the fact that it's easier to attain Coder status on this forum than it is to become Administrator on most forums.
I disagree strongly - I advocate full disclosure of security issues, so that those affected can take immediate action. Why hide such issues behind closed doors? If I'm running a plugin with a security hole, I'd hope that the plugin author would make a public posting of the specific issue, steps being taken to address it, and a timeframe for the fix.And what about the cases where the author is not available, either through explicit desire or involuntarily?
Example; vBShout. Brad released the fix for the security issue there. Was this issue made public? Was explicit code posted as to how you could exploit this? I think not. If that was so, then a hacker would have to do nothing more than to ally himself with a licenced member of this forum and thus have potentially thousands of forums available for exploiting.
It seems to me like you are saying that potential revenue lost for hundreds, maybe even thousands, are less worth than the idea that coders should not gain any benefits even though they spend up to years of their time coding solely for the benefit of this community.
Because to me, that sounds pretty damn retarded.
Whereas with a coders forum, vulnerabilities could be discussed amongst those that would be less prone to exploit them - after all they themselves could be in the same boat at one point...
I just don't see where having a public discussion about it would be beneficial.

Security vulnerabilities should be private at all times (by this I mean the specifics, and POC (Proof Of Concept) code, not the fact that there is a vulnerability), and reported to the vendor as soon as possible.
If the vendor is unable/unwilling to provide a fix, 3rd parties should come up with a fix, in this case in the form of Staff updates.
Never should POC code be posted public, because of abovementioned exploit possiblilties.
Surely you must see how posting such code public would cause a severe loss of revenue or data?
I think what it boils down to is that some coders want a semi-private cloister where they can code and hack without being bothered by newbies, except insofar as said newbies gratefully install their hacks.What coders forum are you referring to, because I have yet to see a single hack being released in that forum...
I think you might be misunderstanding what forum we are talking about. I am talking about the Coders Discussion forum where coders discuss things that are of no value to newbies or learners.
You know, part of me sympathizes with that. I just don't think that's what .org is meant to be. That can't be what JelSoft intends, especially when the default answer to most questions on .com is "ask over at vbulletin.org". This is, for better or not, the "official" site for custom vbulletin development. To me, that means a few things, including active, open coding discussions, and professional moderation. For those who want a private 1337-coderz club, I would say "it's time to grow up".Part of me sympathises with the notion that coders should release their work for free and hardly see a thank you in return... actually no I don't.
Not to mention how the fact that this is the official site for vBulletin modifications has no relevance whatsoever to whether or not there should be a coders discussion forum or not.
For the kind of users like you, who feel that it's wrong for coders to get a small bit of recognition for their work, I would say "drop your communist attitude and realise this isn't the Soviet Union".
I would say that, but apparently I'm in the minority. So, time for me to slink back into the woodwork, and rely on vbulletin-faq and vbhackers and daniweb...You may not be in the minority in this thread (!), but given the fact that you are completely unable to listen to the words of the other side of the coin, I would agree with the notion that you should venture to those other sites.

You lost me at... "I find this offensive" and then went on to say you "don't give a shit", Revan.And you lost me at the point where you completely ripped those two sentence parts out of context and try to fabricate your own little meaning so that you can carry on a dead argument.
What Im saying is what I wrote in the above post, what would you do if an administrator of WebHostingTalk joined your forum and demanded to be an Admin (even if you don't need admins) just because he knows how to administrate forums? Would you, like I said, give a shit about his experience?
If they are so goddamn excellent at coding, why don't they release something?
Actions like that are the pinnacle of the problem.No noppid, the pinnacle of the problem is that users who show no interest in improving this community whatsoever come waltzing in here and demand to be treated as equals (I mean this in ways of recognition (ie coders discussion forums), not as human beings) alongside those who do contribute. A ridiculous idea which has been long pronounced dead, but which somehow keeps getting flogged by people like you and that guy above whos name I wont even try to spell.
License holders should not be supject to segregation nor such elitist demeaning attitudes. .org is either an open development enviorment or not.Oh for the love of all that is holy, this is a sodding FORUM, not a concentration camp! You are blowing it so way out of proportion, it's a wonder you still have the slightest idea about what the core of the matter is.


To everybody who is going to argue this post, please actually answer my quotes in their fullest, instead of cutting out bits and forming your own idea of what I said. Read the message. Read the message. Read the message.
It is becoming increasingly difficult not to insult people who can't seem to read a message in context, and I don't know how much longer I can go on. And the minute I pop, the thread gets closed. And if the thread gets closed, you'll have to repeat your counterproven statements in a new thread.
Nobody wants that, ok?

Revan
07 Jun 2006, 08:39
we're not all equal here.. I can't code and I have no desire to have access to the coders forum. If they need or want a place to talk among themselves, let them have it.. who cares?

Just think of the coding forum as a private forum for those who help with the site by releasing code, just as the moderators have a private forum for those who help with the site by doing whatever they do.Thank you. You have no idea how refreshing it is to read a post by someone who actually understands one of the reasons as to why the coders forum is in place.

Dean C
07 Jun 2006, 11:01
Which is why old discussions, which have been archived, still show up in Google Search results. Come here to find them, though, and the door is closed.


You are talking out of your backside mate. No threads from that forum are indexed in google, it was started fresh, a blank slate...

tgreer
07 Jun 2006, 12:30
You are talking out of your backside mate. No threads from that forum are indexed in google, it was started fresh, a blank slate...

Dean, you're completely wrong in this case. The forum was openly viewable for quite some time, prior to it being made private. The threads within were archived, the archive was indexed and web searches still return those threads. However, the code within cannot be viewed unless you're a member here. Try to access those pages through the site, though, and you get a "You're not authorized" screen. This is provably and demonstrably true; I PM'd Xenon and Erwin about it, and finally had to contact the thread-starter privately in one instance.

Revan, I'd respond to your latest, but really can't keep a straight face long enough.

I see all the same problems:

A private Coders Discussion, with no compelling reason for it to be private. This serves to create attitudes like those clearly in evidence in this thread, causes the "public" coding forums to receive little attention, and puts undue emphasis on the "competing for Installs" amateur coding mentality vs. the true hacker coding ethic of open discussion.

A moderation staff that barely moderates, and who in fact seem to be responsible for most of the inane chatter that goes on, and who've never established and don't enforce professional standards of communication and conduct. While you cannot enforce lucidity or rational thought (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showpost.php?p=1000802&postcount=107), you could at least do something about profanity and off-topic comments.

Until JelSoft gets the house in order here, they shouldn't refer people to this site.

Boofo
07 Jun 2006, 13:30
A moderation staff that barely moderates, and who in fact seem to be responsible for most of the inane chatter that goes on, and who've never established and don't enforce professional standards of communication and conduct. While you cannot enforce lucidity or rational thought (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showpost.php?p=1000802&postcount=107), you could at least do something about profanity and off-topic comments.

Until JelSoft gets the house in order here, they shouldn't refer people to this site.

I disagree as I think moderation is not as big of an issue as babysitting has become in some cases, which is what it seems to have become with statements like this.

tgreer
07 Jun 2006, 14:06
I take your contributions to this thread as a case-in-point. If I've said something offensive, used profanity, or broken a site rule, then by all means do something about it.

If you'd like to make a thoughtful response, as a staff member, to the issues surrounding the "Coders Discussion" forum, I'd certainly like to hear it: I'd welcome a reasonable, logical reply vs. what we've been getting.

But implying that I'm a baby who needs babysitting, how is that an appropriate response from a staff member? Looking through this thread, the posts that need the most attention from a professional moderator with high standards, are YOURS.

I need no other evidence of the problems with staff and the coder mentality that I've been discussing, than this thread.

Revan
07 Jun 2006, 14:19
I'd welcome a reasonable, logical reply vs. what we've been getting.That's exactly the way I feel after having to reply to idiotic and repeatedly counterproven statements in this thread.
While it would be too much to ask to not have to read complete banter and nonsense not even trying to argue valid points (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showpost.php?p=1000913&postcount=110), at least SOME manner of proper discussion could be employed.
Alas...

Boofo
07 Jun 2006, 14:19
I take your contributions to this thread as a case-in-point. If I've said something offensive, used profanity, or broken a site rule, then by all means do something about it.

If you'd like to make a thoughtful response, as a staff member, to the issues surrounding the "Coders Discussion" forum, I'd certainly like to hear it: I'd welcome a reasonable, logical reply vs. what we've been getting.

But implying that I'm a baby who needs babysitting, how is that an appropriate response from a staff member? Looking through this thread, the posts that need the most attention from a professional moderator with high standards, are YOURS.

I need no other evidence of the problems with staff and the coder mentality that I've been discussing, than this thread.

I was referring to the thread needing babysitting, but that was lost in the translation, it seems. If you feel my posts are not of Professional value or high standards, then maytbe you should read them a little closer and a little more objectively. And I for one have always been against the "us and them" mentality that everyone seems to be trying to push.

tgreer
07 Jun 2006, 14:51
If you'd meant the thread, you would have said so. Instead, you quoted my statement, and made your "babysitting" comment in reference to, quote, "statements like this". Now you claim that oh, no, you meant the entire thread? Please.

For an example of how a moderator should reply to critical remarks, see Kier's response (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1141402#post1141402) on vBulletin.com. Now, he may or may not agree with anything I said. He may think I'm a complete idiot. He may think my suggested changes are outlandish. He could have said so. He didn't: he acknowledged my post, said he was aware of the problems here, and that changes were being made. He did so without engaging in personal insults or opinions, and didn't make any statements he'd have to foolishly backtrack to cover later.

Your first response is to attack, then claim you didn't attack, and then suggest the fault lies with me and I should read your contributions more carefully. Brilliant.

Brandon Sheley
07 Jun 2006, 15:12
honestly, I haven't noticed a problem, other then threads like this come up..lol
or when ppl leave, they start a thread..

I'm not "happy" that some of the great hacks/mods and apparently styles are gone. but I understand that ppl grow with time, and some may just be running out of time for sites like this.

I'm glad I was able to receive the support and hacks while they lasted..

I bought vb without even knowing about the 100 unofficial vb support sites there seem to be now, having vb.org here for me, is just frosting on the cake :)

Boofo
07 Jun 2006, 15:15
If you'd meant the thread, you would have said so. Instead, you quoted my statement, and made your "babysitting" comment in reference to, quote, "statements like this". Now you claim that oh, no, you meant the entire thread? Please.

For an example of how a moderator should reply to critical remarks, see Kier's response (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1141402#post1141402) on vBulletin.com. Now, he may or may not agree with anything I said. He may think I'm a complete idiot. He may think my suggested changes are outlandish. He could have said so. He didn't: he acknowledged my post, said he was aware of the problems here, and that changes were being made. He did so without engaging in personal insults or opinions, and didn't make any statements he'd have to foolishly backtrack to cover later.

Your first response is to attack, then claim you didn't attack, and then suggest the fault lies with me and I should read your contributions more carefully. Brilliant.

Well, since you intent on reading posts and applying your own twisted meaning to them, no wonder things are the way they are when certain individuals would rather point fingers to places where the problems don't actually exist thus creating more problems. Things will never get turned around doing it that way, sir. ;)

SaN-DeeP
07 Jun 2006, 15:18
More cheese? :cross-eyed:
/me adds more cheese.

Lottis
07 Jun 2006, 15:19
If you'd meant the thread, you would have said so. Instead, you quoted my statement, and made your "babysitting" comment in reference to, quote, "statements like this". Now you claim that oh, no, you meant the entire thread? Please.

For an example of how a moderator should reply to critical remarks, see Kier's response (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1141402#post1141402) on vBulletin.com. Now, he may or may not agree with anything I said. He may think I'm a complete idiot. He may think my suggested changes are outlandish. He could have said so. He didn't: he acknowledged my post, said he was aware of the problems here, and that changes were being made. He did so without engaging in personal insults or opinions, and didn't make any statements he'd have to foolishly backtrack to cover later.

Your first response is to attack, then claim you didn't attack, and then suggest the fault lies with me and I should read your contributions more carefully. Brilliant.
Vborg is a good extra offer to the original vBulletin software.
Its totaly up to you if you want to suply hacks ore not.
The hacks are here, free fore use. Why are you winning excactly?
Let the coders do there thing and aprishiate that they are willing.
The vB.org team has done what they can to make changes here fore the last weeks, give them some credits fore that at least.

noppid
07 Jun 2006, 15:25
Well, since you intent on reading posts and applying your own twisted meaning to them, no wonder things are the way they are when certain individuals would rather point fingers to places where the problems don't actually exist thus creating more problems. Things will never get turned around doing it that way, sir. ;)

What is twisted is that all license holders cannot access the same information.

That is the point here. There are many poeple that could read and benefit without infringing on anyone.

The fact that one license holder can imply another license holder may be a pain in the whatever and they need a "private" spot and then Jelsoft indulges it is truely wrong and possibly illegal. There have been class action suites over less.

Thank you. You have no idea how refreshing it is to read a post by someone who actually understands one of the reasons as to why the coders forum is in place.

Did you pay more for your license then the non-coder? Why should you get more benefits for your licesnse purchase then another license holder?

Why don't we have the White's section and the colored sections too?

EasyTarget
07 Jun 2006, 15:29
I know there are very good programmers there, true professionals who work hard to release quality plugins and provide good support.you realize that coders don't get paid, right? you make it sound as if you're entitled to their code and support because you paid money for someone else's product (vbulletin). I do think that there should be some steps taken to encourage and ensure more/better support, but by no means do I think of it as something that I'm owed/entitled to from coders who are sharing their modifications for free. (maybe some option to uncheck the support box on hacks that say they're supported when in reality they're not? Maybe some award for those that provide good support, like a member vote or whatever?)

And why would you run to .com and throw a tantrum about people here who are providing useful tools to others? Who cares if there is competition? It'd actually probably be better if there were more competitions because many people like to be challenged and it would end up making the modifications better and better.

If you want to tell .com that you think they should have paid coders/staff who release hacks and modifications, then say so.

Would you go to the redcross and whine because aide workers, who volunteer their time, are competiting with eachother to try and help the most people? Or if they had meetings which only aide workers were able to attend? Oh no, segregation!! They're people just like everyone else, but they get to go to a meeting that I don't get to go to simply because they're helping others and I'm not! Bring out the human rights activists!

noppid
07 Jun 2006, 15:33
you realize that coders don't get paid, right? you make it sound as if you're entitled to their code and support because you paid money for someone else's product (vbulletin). I do think that there should be some steps taken to encourage and ensure more/better support, but by no means do I think of it as something that I'm owed/entitled to from coders who are sharing their modifications for free. (maybe some option to uncheck the support box on hacks that say they're supported when in reality they're not? Maybe some award for those that provide good support, like a member vote or whatever?)

And why would you run to .com and throw a tantrum about people here who are providing useful tools to others? Who cares if they're competition? It'd actually probably be better if there were more competitions because many people like to be challenged and it would end up making the modifications better and better.

If you want to tell .com that you think they should have paid coders/staff who release hacks and modifications, then say so.

Would you go to the redcross and whine because aide workers, who volunteer their time, are competiting with eachother to try and help the most people? Or if they had meetings which only aide workers were able to attend? Oh no, segregation!! They're people just like everyone else, but they get to go to a meeting that I don't get to go to simply because they're helping others and I'm not! Bring out the human rights activists!


I just addresses human rights before you posted.

Are you saying that it's ok to segregate? Are you supporting we should have a white's and colored section?

The idea that one license holder gets more then another in the form of segregation is anologous to racism.

Boofo
07 Jun 2006, 15:35
What is twisted is that all license holders cannot access the same information.

That is the point here. There are many poeple that could read and benefit without infringing on anyone.

The fact that one license holder can imply another license holder may be a pain in the whatever and they need a "private" spot and then Jelsoft indulges it is truely wrong and possibly illegal. There have been class action suites over less.

This is the kind of post that we can find a way to deal with on an intelligent and compromising level, without all of the politics and personal vendettas thrown in. Thank you, sir. It is refreshing to see that in this thread. ;)

tgreer
07 Jun 2006, 15:35
Then please tell me the proper interpretation of your post #111, Boofo. What about my interpretation is "twisted"? It seems very clear and unambiguous.

The "Coders Discussion" is a real issue. I'm not the only one who thinks so. It is not a figment of my fevered imagination, and you can't sweep it away by saying it's only a problem because I'm trying to make it one. I have access to it; I released a silly little hack so I could gain access, so this isn't a personal issue. It's a sitewide issue that has caused a rift, and undermines the very raison d'etre of the site.

The arguments put forth are:

It's a "reward" for contributors.
We discuss security issues in there, which our users shouldn't see.
Newbies wouldn't benefit.
The other programming sections aren't any good.


Surely anyone can see how weak and self-defeating these arguments are? It's obvious, though, that I've lost this battle, and that the only staff response is going to be more of what you've been dishing out, so this thread has been yet another useless exercise.

you realize that coders don't get paid, right? you make it sound as if you're entitled to their code and support because you paid money for someone else's product (vbulletin).

Huh? Where? When? I've made no such implication, anywhere. What's needed is a development discussion community. Whether or not such discussions lead to a published plugin, for free or for pay, really doesn't matter one way or another to me. It's nice that many are indeed released, for free, and non-programmers and plugin users should be rightfully grateful for that... but that's a complete non-sequitor to the issue at hand.

Lottis
07 Jun 2006, 15:41
I personally, are happy that i have no acsess there.
A coder, at least knows what he/she talkes about when they discuss coding and so on.
I would probably freak out of the word, security issues.
And starting asking stuppid question.
But what do you mean about this? The other programming sections aren't any good.

noppid
07 Jun 2006, 15:42
Then please tell me the proper interpretation of your post #111, Boofo. What about my interpretation is "twisted"? It seems very clear and unambiguous.

The "Coders Discussion" is a real issue. I'm not the only one who thinks so. It is not a figment of my fevered imagination, and you can't sweep it away by saying it's only a problem because I'm trying to make it one. I have access to it; I released a silly little hack so I could gain access, so this isn't a personal issue. It's a sitewide issue that has caused a rift, and undermines the very raison d'etre of the site.

The arguments put forth are:

It's a "reward" for contributors.
We discuss security issues in there, which our users shouldn't see.
Newbies wouldn't benefit.
The other programming sections aren't any good.


Surely anyone can see how weak and self-defeating these arguments are? It's obvious, though, that I've lost this battle, and that the only staff response is going to be more of what you've been dishing out, so this thread has been yet another useless exercise.



Huh? Where? When? I've made no such implication, anywhere. What's needed is a development discussion community. Whether or not such discussions lead to a published plugin, for free or for pay, really doesn't matter one way or another to me. It's nice that many are indeed released, for free, and non-programmers and plugin users should be rightfully grateful for that... but that's a complete non-sequitor to the issue at hand.


Just make sure you drink from the right water fountain in the future.

EasyTarget
07 Jun 2006, 15:42
The fact that one license holder can imply another license holder may be a pain in the whatever and they need a "private" spot and then Jelsoft indulges it is truely wrong and possibly illegal. There have been class action suites over less.this has nothing to do with a private coders forum and can be done by anyone here whether they're a coder or not.Insert Important information that only us registered/verified members at vb.org can see and all the .com users who have purchased licenses cannot see.Uh oh, I just violated some human rights, better find a lawyerWhy don't we have the White's section and the colored sections too?what's funny (sad) is you actually think a private coders forum is on par with segregation.

noppid
07 Jun 2006, 15:43
I personally, are happy that i have no acsess there.
A coder, at least knows what he/she talkes about when they discuss coding and so on.
I would probably freak out of the word, security issues.
And starting asking stuppid question.
But what do you mean about this?

For everyone of you that "don't care", there are ten up and coming programmers that DO CARE and do want to know.

Either way, as a license holder, if you want to get that information, it should be available equally to all license holders.

this has nothing to do with a private coders forum and can be done by anyone here whether they're a coder or not.Insert Important information that only us registered/verified members at vb.org can see and all the .com users who have purchased licenses cannot see.Uh oh, I just violated some human rights, better find a lawyerwhat's funny (sad) is you actually think a private coders forum is on par with segregation.


If Joe can get there and Mary can't, but they paid for the same product and support, what should we call it besides segregation?

Lottis
07 Jun 2006, 15:48
For everyone of you that "don't care", there are ten up and coming programmers that DO CARE and do want to know.

Either way, as a license holder, if you want to get that information, it should be available equally to all license holders.
Its not that i dont care, i really have no knowleges to be there.
Dont they get acsess when they relese a tiny hack? Tiny ore tiny, its not "flaming" but i mean a littel thing compare to a big hack.
Why should we acsess something we dont know a shit about?
Wouldent we do more harm than good?

tgreer
07 Jun 2006, 15:48
@Lottis: that was given as a reason for the need to have the "Coders Section" private. Re-read the thread, you'll find something to the effect that the "Programmers Discussion" forum wasn't "fit for discussion", so a particular thread was started in the private forum instead. It's called a "circular" argument: why are the existing coding sections of inferior quality, with many threads simply ignored? Because the real coding discussions are private. Why are they private? Well, because the public discussions aren't any good...

EasyTarget
07 Jun 2006, 15:57
so coders want a place to talk among themselves.. big freaking deal! There's nothing in there that I'm 'entitled' to as a paying jelsoft customer. It was disclosed at vb.com exactly what I got with my purchase and I got it.

tgreer, who cares about the reason they want the forum? Maybe they want it to discuss the sunsets, maybe its to share recipes, maybe its to chat on this forum with other coders in a place where they won't be hounded by us members?

And please noppid, go find the 10 members for everyone 1 that think coders shouldn't have a private forum, yet even more that feel their human rights are being violated because of it.

noppid
07 Jun 2006, 16:02
so coders want a place to talk among themselves.. big freaking deal! There's nothing in there that I'm 'entitled' to as a paying jelsoft customer. It was disclosed at vb.com exactly what I got with my purchase and I got it.

tgreer, who cares about the reason they want the forum? Maybe they want it to discuss the sunsets, maybe its to share recipes, maybe its to chat on this forum with other coders in a place where they won't be hounded by us members?

And please noppid, go find the 10 members for everyone 1 that think coders shouldn't have a private forum, yet even more that feel their human rights are being violated because of it.

I'm now ignoring you. You have nothing but sef indulgent musings to post. Exactly the problem here.

Based on the need for hacks, I bet I can find more then 10. But my time is better spent arguing for equal access of all license holders rather then one or ten. I'm in this for all or nothing. I do not support any kind of different treatment of any license holder.

EasyTarget
07 Jun 2006, 16:19
you're ignoring me for giving valid responses to your comments without ever personally attacking you? hmm.. ok?

Based on the need for hacks, as you mentioned, you will find members willing to give coders more benefits, not less. If someone wants to help the community then the access and benefits that are allotted to coders will only serve to give them more incentive to do so.
For everyone of you that "don't care", there are ten up and coming programmers that DO CARE and do want to know.my time is better spent arguing for equal access of all license holders rather then one or ten.

tgreer
07 Jun 2006, 16:20
so coders want a place to talk among themselves.. big freaking deal! There's nothing in there that I'm 'entitled' to as a paying jelsoft customer. It was disclosed at vb.com exactly what I got with my purchase and I got it.

tgreer, who cares about the reason they want the forum? Maybe they want it to discuss the sunsets, maybe its to share recipes, maybe its to chat on this forum with other coders in a place where they won't be hounded by us members?

When you say "coders" and "they" in your post, please define whom you mean? Likewise, with "members"? What's the differentiation? I'm a member. I'm a coder. This is the site to discuss vBulletin customization and development, is it not? That's why I'm a member. That's precisely the kind of discussion which is being intentionally hobbled.

This site has been co-opted; it isn't a "vBulletin Customization discussion community". It's a club. You join the club by releasing hacks, which has become synonymous with "contributing to the community". You're either part of the club, or you're a "user", which has become synonymous with "newbie". Your role as a user/member is to download hacks and click the almighty "install" button. Be nice. Don't irritate the coders. You also have the staff, whose role is to... ??

What about people who 1) don't necessarily need or want someone else's hack? 2) because they are experienced developers and 3) want to learn some of the more intricate aspects of the vBulletin API and/or source code? by 4) having intelligent conversations with like-minded vBulletin users?

That is the group disenfranchised by the current setup.

EasyTarget
07 Jun 2006, 16:34
It's a club. You join the club by releasing hacks, which has become synonymous with "contributing to the community". You're either part of the club, or you're a "user", which has become synonymous with "newbie". Your role as a user/member is to download hacks and click the almighty "install" button. Be nice. Don't irritate the coders.You gain access to a private forum for those who have released modifications. I don't recall the be nice and don't irritate the coders being a part of the equation. Coders have no power over people who treat them with disrespect. Just look in almost any release thread and there's plenty of evidence to this.
What about people who 1) don't necessarily need or want someone else's hack? 2) because they are experienced developers and 3) want to learn some of the more intricate aspects of the vBulletin API and/or source code? by 4) having intelligent conversations with like-minded vBulletin users?

vb forums for those who don't need/want someone elses hack, forums for experienced developers, forums for those who want to learn more, forums for having intelligent conversations with like-minded vbulletin users (which everyone has access to):
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=101
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=107
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=102
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=112
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=26
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=24
http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=111 (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=111)
http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=184 (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=184)
http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=92 (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=92)

What you want is already provided for.. redundantly. The forum for those who have released modifications should remain open to only those people who have released modifications.

Gio~Logist
07 Jun 2006, 16:49
I agree with tgreer on a lot of things he's said. I also still stick with my last post.

I'm sorry, i just find it a waste of time to argue about making the coder's forum public. Coders sometimes would like to discuss things among coders. Take away that forum, people will just pm each other. Either way, some things are best discussed amongst you would like to discuss them with. Nothing you guys say or do can obligate a member to post things to the public.

tgreer
07 Jun 2006, 16:50
"I can't code and I have no desire to have access to the coders forum."

That's obvious, if you think those links you posted are to "coding discussions". I don't mean that disrepectfully - I don't think more or less of you because of coding ability or lack thereof, I'm just saying, those aren't the kinds of discussions under question here.

Since you can't code and don't care about the issues around the private coders' discussion forum, why are you arguing with me about it? I do have access to it, and I can tell you that nothing there needs to be eyes-only to those who've released hacks. They are, for the most part, development discussions, the kind that vbulletin.com sends people here to see/have. Only, they are hidden, so... what's the point?

I have to join noppid in ignoring you, I guess: the point of this thread, before it was hijacked, was "what changes are necessary to regain those who've left", to which I added "or those who never really participated".

I pinpointed two areas: 1) get a professional staff and 2) open up the coding discussions. Those really haven't been addressed, and now the thread is really just pointlessly bouncing back and forth (mea culpa). If you don't agree with my ideas, fine. If you think things are fine, ok. My goal is not to persuade you; I had hoped the administration would address the issues, and they haven't, so I posted at vbulletin.com and will patiently await the outcome.

EasyTarget
07 Jun 2006, 17:10
hmm.. php coding forum, mysql forum, html questions, server configuration, how do I questions forum, quick tips and customizations, custimization forums for templates, phrases, graphics and styles, general modification discussion forum, vbulletin programming and styles and graphics articles, programming discussions and styles and graphics discussions. Exactly which of these public forums don't fulfill your request?

Even if they're discussing how to be a better dad, how to earn more money or how to code in their private forum (all things which I could benefit from), that's their choice. Its a forum for them and they can use it how they want.

And this thread, as you mentioned, was for those coders who have left.. you're conjecturing that they left because the staff gave them a private forum? And you're trying to label the forum for the coders as a general coding discussions forum, which it is not, and which I showed you there are many, many general coding discussion forums which exist already.

I never disagreed about your staff comments, though I think there are other ways to improve it without hiring 'professional moderators'. As you can see the staff have already listened to your comments somewhat and have stopped disrupting the thread.

Lottis
07 Jun 2006, 17:17
"I can't code and I have no desire to have access to the coders forum."

I cant code, but i really want to learn. Thats why i am happy that v.org has provided lessons fore those who are interested. ( peterksa)-
I have just not have the time to join them yet.
So i really want to learn and gonne do it one day.
Untill then, i mean that i have no bisniss having acsess. I will mostly do more harm than good. ;)

noppid
07 Jun 2006, 17:36
hmm.. php coding forum, mysql forum, html questions, server configuration, how do I questions forum, quick tips and customizations, custimization forums for templates, phrases, graphics and styles, general modification discussion forum, vbulletin programming and styles and graphics articles, programming discussions and styles and graphics discussions. Exactly which of these public forums don't fulfill your request?

Even if they're discussing how to be a better dad, how to earn more money or how to code in their private forum (all things which I could benefit from), that's their choice. Its a forum for them and they can use it how they want.

And this thread, as you mentioned, was for those coders who have left.. you're conjecturing that they left because the staff gave them a private forum? And you're trying to label the forum for the coders as a general coding discussions forum, which it is not, and which I showed you there are many, many general coding discussion forums which exist already.

I never disagreed about your staff comments, though I think there are other ways to improve it without hiring 'professional moderators'. As you can see the staff have already listened to your comments somewhat and have stopped disrupting the thread.

You can blow smoke all you want. If those forums are good enough for your arguement, they are also good enough to argue against it.

If all those forums satisfy our needs, there is no reason for a private forum.

I cant code, but i really want to learn. Thats why i am happy that v.org has provided lessons fore those who are interested. ( peterksa)-
I have just not have the time to join them yet.
So i really want to learn and gonne do it one day.
Untill then, i mean that i have no bisniss having acsess. I will mostly do more harm than good. ;)

Why would you put yourself down like that? How could your reading something cause trouble?

That's just rediculous that this 1337 crowd now has people thinking they are not good enough. It's absurd!

EasyTarget
07 Jun 2006, 17:55
If all those forums satisfy our needs, there is no reason for a private forum.The private forum for people who have released modifications isn't a general forum for learning php, it isn't a general forum for helping modify vbulletin, its a forum for people who have released hacks here at .org to talk about whatever they want. If they happen to use it to discuss code, that's their choice.

If those forums are good enough for your arguement, they are also good enough to argue against it.What arguments are there against the forums which I listed? They are general forums for all licensed members to ask questions and learn about modifying vb. Everyone has equal access to them, is there something I'm missing?

Why would you put yourself down like that? How could your reading something cause trouble?

That's just rediculous that this 1337 crowd now has people thinking they are not good enough. It's absurd!He didn't put himself down, he said he wanted to learn how to code but that he didn't have time right now. He didn't say one word about people here on .org making him feel inferior or inadequate.. your twisting of his words is absurd.

tgreer
07 Jun 2006, 18:16
What arguments are there against the forums which I listed? They are general forums for all licensed members to ask questions and learn about modifying vb. Everyone has equal access to them, is there something I'm missing?

<sigh> Ok, I'm going to assume you're generally curious/confused about this issue and want a real reply. Here's what's missing: the coders, the discussions. Why? Because they are in a private forum.

I tried on a couple of occasions to use the public forums. The threads went unanswered. I tried Google searches, found just the threads I needed. They pointed to the Coders Discussion forum, which by then had become private.

And that forum is specifically for coding discussions; it is NOT a general chitchat forum for modders. The rules for the forum state:

1. General posting rules must be followed in this forum. (link)
2. Please, stay on topic (coding for vBulletin and anything that goes along with it). In other words don't use this forum for general chit-chat threads. (emphasis mine)

The fact is, all those public forums COULD and SHOULD be used, by the vb.org coding community. But they aren't. The quality coding discussions are either held in the private forum, or, increasingly, on other sites entirely.

EasyTarget
07 Jun 2006, 18:27
<sigh> Ok, I'm going to assume you're generally curious/confused about this issue and want a real reply. Here's what's missing: the coders, the discussions. Why? Because they are in a private forum.But didn't you say they've only been private for a few weeks? Haven't those forums been around for a long time? If the coders and discussions are missing it has nothing to do with a few week old private modification authors discussion.

I tried on a couple of occasions to use the public forums. The threads went unanswered. I tried Google searches, found just the threads I needed. They pointed to the Coders Discussion forum, which by then had become private.Questions go unanswered in a coders own modification release thread. Giving everyone access to a private forum for people who have released modifications will just take away the little incentive that coders have to release their work. Giving coders some incentive, how little it may be, is a good thing.

I understand that you may be frustrated at the lack of responses or help for your coding needs, but trying to pinpoint the private forum for those who have released modifications as the source of it all isn't going to change that. If there's little discussion in those forums (the general public code discussion forums) right now then maybe you can set the example and start answering questions in them. If you keep at it then others will join in and soon the people you helped will be helping others as well. Modification authors should still have a forum where they can talk amongst themselves though.. to talk about whatever they want.

noppid
07 Jun 2006, 18:32
But didn't you say they've only been private for a few weeks? Haven't those forums been around for a long time? If the coders and discussions are missing it has nothing to do with a few week old private coders discussion.

Threads go unanswered in a coders own modification release.. giving everyone access to a private forum for people who have released modifications will just take away the little incentive that coders have to release their work. Giving coders some incentive, how little it may be, is a good thing.

I understand that you may be frustrated at the lack of responses or help for your coding needs, but trying to pinpoint the private forum for those who have released modifications as the source of it all isn't going to change that. If there's little discussion in those forums right now then maybe you can set the example and start answering questions in them. If you keep at it then others will join in and soon the people you helped will be helping others as well. Modification authors should still have a forum where they can talk amongst themselves though.. to talk about whatever they want.


Are you kidding me? You have the audacity to tell another member/license holder to step up his game if he wants to play in the sandbox!?

This is supposed to be an open development enviorment so that can happen. Your reasoning is flawed to suggest that someone needs to learn elsewhere to be entitled to be in a private forum.

No one should have to lower themself to that as a means of access.

EasyTarget
07 Jun 2006, 18:41
Yes.. if you want answers, start giving them. Treat others how you want to be treated, bring some talent to the table if you want others to share theirs, pay it forward. How dare I!.

I didn't say anything that people had to learn elsewhere, I suggest they learn right here. If the public forums aren't being used to their potential then lets figure out a way to encourage their use (my suggestion was for people who know how to code to start using it, even if they're the only one) And just because someone knows how to code doesn't mean they can use the private forum, its only for those who have shared their coding knowledge in the form of a modification that can gain access to the modifications author forum.

You keep making their forum to be something its not.. Its not a forum to help answer questions from vblicense holders, its not a forum to give a resource to license holders to know how to modify their boards, its not a forum for learning. Its just what it is, a private forum for people who have released a modification. What they talk about there is up to them.

No one should have to lower themself to that as a means of access.so requiring people to help others (charity) instead of letting them get something for nothing (greed/selfishness) is a bad thing? That's a characteristic we don't want?

The Geek
07 Jun 2006, 19:13
Bloody hell guys... Chill.

Coders forum.

Who cares? It used to NOT be there, now it is. Personally I think its useful for coders to discuss things relevant to them (i.e. hacking vB) that is not of use to the average member here. Hell, rename it to a contributer forum. Hell, for that matter make it public, I doubt you'll get many average users of the site posting in topics centered around data managers.

Regardless, who freaking cares? This thread is diluted with personal attacks/defenses and in the end, many (from both sides) come off looking pedantic.

The root of the problem is that those that give to the site feel unloved for the giving. This thread isn't going to change that. The actions implemented by admins lately will help to do that. Give them the time and space to see if it works. If not, give them the courtesy to try another angle.

And on that note - those whining that people should contribute because without this forum they wouldn't be able to write code. I say screw em. Actually lifting up the hood and spending the countless hours trying to figure out how to code and code for vB is something that should be celebrated. .org or vB is not 'owed' for that - persistence and patience and a willing to give is what's owed.
For those benefiting from that. Tell your coders 'Thanks'. For those expecting it, click here (http://funcop.net/pmf.swf).

Just my odd thoughts on the situation.

noppid
07 Jun 2006, 19:32
New 3.6 code is out. Nuff said here.

Freesteyelz
07 Jun 2006, 20:51
Hehe. I think I'm way up there myself. Thank goodness for the testing board. :)

More than likely I'll wait for the release to become Gold.

noppid
07 Jun 2006, 21:17
Hehe. I think I'm way up there myself. Thank goodness for the testing board. :)

More than likely I'll wait for the release to become Gold.

I'm probably waiting for gold to go live. No matter what version I install, I'll have 14 templates to deal with it seems. But it's nice to test and preview.

Freesteyelz
07 Jun 2006, 21:21
Yup. I'm looking forward to it myself. :)

nitro
07 Jun 2006, 22:45
Interesting thread. Has to be said its a bit sad if .org is going down certain closed doors route which is what is happening if certain hack development tips and discussions are now out of reach, thats a huge distance to where .org started out. It also wont help future coders as the new plugin system means users who install really see nothing but the results (I started a thread on this a while back).

No I dont write many hacks, yes I have released even less, barely at all here. Most hacks are allready here that I would use, many do what I want many need more work to do what I want, I dont generally pester for the extra I try to take that part on myself, having been installing hacks for some time I have had the benefit of seeing the code and where its going in the past and have some understanding of that code, and have taught myself by trial and error and the search button for extra info how to make some things do more what I want. The extra info to me is as important as the hack itself.

However I fully understand releasers needing a venting room to throw stuff, I have seen many completely ridiculous posts which seems to be getting worse and not just here on .org either by users who say nothing but it dont work and a flame away at the author.
Perhaps hack authors should be able to click an uninstall for such abusive installers and deny support above whats allready posted until its fit to reverse that.

There will allways be those who have no respect for anything and there will allways be those who appreciate whats contributed be it info or complete releases.

Its harder to force any respect into those who cannot respect but its dead easy to lose the appreciators by penalising them for the actions of those who dont.

tgreer
07 Jun 2006, 23:38
Interesting thread. Has to be said its a bit sad if .org is going down certain closed doors route which is what is happening if certain hack development tips and discussions are now out of reach, thats a huge distance to where .org started out. It also wont help future coders as the new plugin system means users who install really see nothing but the results (I started a thread on this a while back).

Bingo!

However I fully understand releasers needing a venting room to throw stuff, I have seen many completely ridiculous posts which seems to be getting worse and not just here on .org either by users who say nothing but it dont work and a flame away at the author.

That's what moderators are for. Delete the post, warn the user. If the abuse continues, ban them. Plus, the coders discussion is NOT a venting room. Any such posts would be explicitly against the rules of that forum.

nitro
08 Jun 2006, 00:41
Bingo!



That's what moderators are for. Delete the post, warn the user. If the abuse continues, ban them. Plus, the coders discussion is NOT a venting room. Any such posts would be explicitly against the rules of that forum.
In which case if the coders/stylers forums is purely code tips & discussion with a few mods security issues then all the tips and discussion posts need to be seen by all licensed members, this is most useful to all us old skoolers here (I know lots of these have moved one for whatever reason, but theres still some of us left) and one of the only areas newcomers will get to see much code. Remember not all newcomers are total noodles that have less intelligence than a bean. I am no master coder by any means but it doesnt mean I cant get the basics and work with it. But if it cant be seen then it cant be worked with, thats getting to be closed source, which I beleive is against the sites rules. Also those who tweak do provide much support in addon threads to those who dont have the knowledge or have got lost in trying.

Closing a coding discussion forum to oldies and newcomers is inevitably going to reduce future mod makers and tweakers who all contribute in one way or another, some more than others, some much more. It will become an almost comeplete segragation users will contribute no more than click install and maybe rate and rarley learn anything and the coders club will become there for the few which will dimminish in numbers.

Results inspire appreciation, visibility insires new talent.

Security issues are another matter whereby the how tos for replication etc should be relativley private in the first instance at least, a fix should be provided asap by whoever has the power to do so and if thats going to take a while longer all who clicked install should get an advisory mail, and that should be inside 24/48 hours, most mods carry a page which has some form of easy google search term so finding sites with a modification that has a security flaw is easy for those wishing to cause harm.

EasyTarget
08 Jun 2006, 01:09
its not a coding discussion forum, its a forum for coders (people who have released hacks). From what you guys are saying, the problem isn't that there's a private forum for them, its that people don't contribute to threads about coding.

As far as closed source, talking about code in a private forum doesn't qualify as that as far as I can tell (I'm sure there's some code talk in the moderator forums as well). It would be releasing a hack where people can't access the code wouldn't it?

Maybe a good idea would be for moderators to copy threads which don't have sensitive/personal information from the private coders forum into a pulic area once the thread has run its course.

nitro, even though you may not think its useful, you could always post what edits you have done or tips that have helped you for others to see because you never know who might find it handy. This will help bring more content to the coding discussion forums, which in turn will bring in more users/contributors to it.

I also agree that coders should have some more control of their modification release threads as well. They shouldn't have to deal with members who are tearing them or their work done (as long as they can distinguish between contructive criticism and pure contempt).

nitro
08 Jun 2006, 02:15
If you read my post you would see I say tweakers do contribute greatly, some more than others, and not just in advising on specific tweaking questions but you will find many minor support answers come form those who perform personal tweaks but dont actually release much if anything.
This is why my post count is not that high despite the fact that I am actually the oldest member thats participated in this thread, because some people do read the threads/use search and mostly get the answers needed without asking a Q thats been answered a dozen times, releasing is another game altogether as theres a responsibilty to it, which I like many others dont have the time for, doesnt mean whats been posted by us has been useless or we have just grabbed any hack possible and ran off saying nothing.

If every tweaker was to simply post every tweak made the modification threads could get very dificult for the author to support, but tweaks do have a good input in the past here and some authors also take some of the select extra ideas on board and even improve them at times. That said the way some rules are tightening up its also becoming more awkward for tweaks or even temporay updates/how to update to be posted when the authors away for sometime for whatever reason, this is bad side effect to being a .org that permits strict copyright in releases, as it leaves many who cannot work it out in a prevoius series or dropping features they have become acustomed to. Good job Jelsoft is proactive for security in most of the series but still doesnt help those left behind to move on. yes coders need time out like everyone. On this I think coders should accept a set time limit for releases here to make an new series update else permit it to be passed on for the new series (other terms could be made to help this work better aswell).

So if a coders forum isnt discussing code and coding methods, doesnt seem to be much of a coders forum then really.

EasyTarget
08 Jun 2006, 03:10
I wasn't trying to say your posts were useless, I'm trying to say that you should post even the little things that you do because they really aren't useless.

As you said its not good to keep posting it in the authors thread, but maybe if you kept it all in one post it wouldn't be so bad. I know there's lots of hacks that go unsupported and there's many kind users that end up taking over or just posting their changes in them.

The coders forum is a coders forum for the people that use it, not for the content inside of it.

tgreer
08 Jun 2006, 04:37
For the last time, and this time please listen, EasyTarget: the private coder's discussion forum is about detailed coding discussions. That's all it's about. Anything else is strictly against the rules for that forum, which I posted. It is not a "contributors' lounge", as you are tending to paint it. It's about hardcode coding discussions, the kind that this forum is supposed to have and be about. The kind nitro wants to see. Please stop posting about an issue you've already stated you don't care about, especially since your preconceptions and speculations about it are wrong. Thank you and good night.

EasyTarget
08 Jun 2006, 05:05
I obviously care about it or I wouldn't be posting.. nice conclusion though. I said I don't care to have access. I think coders deserve recognition and other benefits for the work they do, a private forum is a very small part of that. More benefits for coders = More coders that contribute = more modifications = more users = more coders, etc.

If the coders forum's purpose is just for detailed coding then they need to change its purpose to just be a private forum for coders.. *If they still want to talk about coding in it, great, but then we wouldn't have people whining about some little detail like what the forum description is.


*yes I agree, it'd be beneficial for some of those discussions to occur in the open

Gio~Logist
08 Jun 2006, 05:24
I obviously care about it or I wouldn't be posting.. nice conclusion though. I said I don't care to have access. I think coders deserve recognition and other benefits for the work they do, a private forum is a very small part of that. More benefits for coders = More coders that contribute = more modifications = more users = more coders, etc.

If the coders forum's purpose is just for detailed coding then they need to change its purpose to just be a private forum for coders.. *If they still want to talk about coding in it, great, but then we wouldn't have people whining about some little detail like what the forum description is.


*yes I agree, it'd be beneficial for some of those discussions to occur in the open

Your appreciation is appreciated heh ;)

LJR
08 Jun 2006, 09:08
Create a coders' forum if you must but allow other members to apply for access to the usergroup which will allow them access to it. To me, as a simple peddlar of tin, a forum should only ever be hidden if there is sensitive information in there which should not be viewable by the general membership database (for example a staff forum). There is absolutely zero benefit to creating a forum, making it hidden, when the information could be of interest to those who have not yet written a hack. Make it viewable, even if it's read only unless you have posted a hack (in which case you can then create threads and reply to others too)

noppid
08 Jun 2006, 14:27
Create a coders' forum if you must but allow other members to apply for access to the usergroup which will allow them access to it. To me, as a simple peddlar of tin, a forum should only ever be hidden if there is sensitive information in there which should not be viewable by the general membership database (for example a staff forum). There is absolutely zero benefit to creating a forum, making it hidden, when the information could be of interest to those who have not yet written a hack. Make it viewable, even if it's read only unless you have posted a hack (in which case you can then create threads and reply to others too)


That's a good sugestion for compromise. At least people can do research.

Sangrun
12 Jun 2006, 17:40
I've been involved in many technical forums and even here (the heart of discussion for the actual vehicle) we have politics and issues.

It is not different anywhere is it? :D

BTW: I'm a newb and I highly appreciate the people who make these hacks and mods. It takes time and planning as well as patience. On one of my sites I did a tutorial for building a specific peice of equipment and it took me a month of planning, taking pics, writing the descriptions, renaming the pics and resizing them. I enjoyed it and the outcome was great, but it can be thankless at times.

Since I have no idea what happened I hope everyone works it out.

Thanks again!

Chris M
15 Jun 2006, 23:23
The 3.6 Template Change / Upgrade Discussions within this thread have been moved to a new thread, here: http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=118711

Please try and keep on-topic :)

Chris

MPDev
16 Jun 2006, 01:58
Instead of seperating the members here in terms like "license holders" and "non-license holders"; how about using a more suitable designation like "coders" and "noncoders". In that context you will find it easier to understand why some forums may not be for everyone.

Ntfu2
16 Jun 2006, 03:50
Why seperate the members any further then liscensed or unliscensed? Creating social status' lead to many inferiortiy problems :lol:

noppid
20 Jun 2006, 02:23
Instead of seperating the members here in terms like "license holders" and "non-license holders"; how about using a more suitable designation like "coders" and "noncoders". In that context you will find it easier to understand why some forums may not be for everyone.

The value of the License Jelsoft sells us is directly related to the access of this forum. Is is unfair to segregate paying customers in any way shape or form other then to keep staff forums private.

Until you pay more then others for a license, which we all need to pay for to play with code here, then you are entitled to no more then the guy that just got his license today.

This is becoming a business issue and that is not what Jelsoft needs. This needs to be fixed immediaty.

Ntfu2
20 Jun 2006, 02:35
Another case of everyone wants to be treated fair and the same, but also wants to be able to be split up in different groups, and clicks and feel they are better then people who cant/dont code

classic

noppid
20 Jun 2006, 02:36
Another case of everyone wants to be treated fair and the same, but also wants to be able to be split up in different groups...

classic

That is what the "other" vB coding sites are for. Paying customers should not be treated this way by any company.

EasyTarget
20 Jun 2006, 03:02
The value of the License Jelsoft sells us is directly related to the access of this forum. Is is unfair to segregate paying customers in any way shape or form other then to keep staff forums private.

Until you pay more then others for a license, which we all need to pay for to play with code here, then you are entitled to no more then the guy that just got his license today.you guys are so dramatic. It is not 'directly related' whatsoever. As far as I know there's nothing in my license saying I get access to .org, that upon access I must be able to read the coders forum. Its a service that is provided for legitimate customers to help them to modify their boards. If members at .org want access to the coders forum they can release a modification, its pretty simple. If the few of you are so hell bent on making coding discussion public, start talking about code in public forums. By taking private forum away from the coders you're just going to kill all talk of coding.

If you want a coding discussion that all customers should have access to, use the .com ones. That's why they're there.

noppid
20 Jun 2006, 03:09
you guys are so dramatic. It is not 'directly related' whatsoever. As far as I know there's nothing in my license saying I get access to .org, that upon access I must be able to read the coders forum. Its a service that is provided for legitimate customers to help them to modify their boards. If members at .org want access to the coders forum they can release a modification, its pretty simple. If the few of you are so hell bent on making coding discussion public, start talking about code in public forums. By taking private forum away from the coders you're just going to kill all talk of coding.

If you want a coding discussion that all customers should have access to, use the .com ones. That's why they're there.

Are you going to bat for "coders" for some reason? Do you have a dog in this hunt?

tgreer
20 Jun 2006, 03:38
I see several people in this thread who are "for" opening up the private coders forum. When the official results from the official "thread I cannot mention without my post being deleted" are tallied, please be sure to tabulate in the results from THIS thread, as well, from those who were not able to participate in the vote.

EasyTarget
20 Jun 2006, 04:14
Are you going to bat for "coders" for some reason? Do you have a dog in this hunt?Yes, to me the coders are the lifeblood of this site. If they want a private forum for talking then they should have one. Its a very small thing for the contributions they give.
I see several people in this thread who are "for" opening up the private coders forum.I see several people who aren't. We agree to disagree on the issue.

Brad
20 Jun 2006, 04:38
The value of the License Jelsoft sells us is directly related to the access of this forum. Is is unfair to segregate paying customers in any way shape or form other then to keep staff forums private.

Until you pay more then others for a license, which we all need to pay for to play with code here, then you are entitled to no more then the guy that just got his license today.

This is becoming a business issue and that is not what Jelsoft needs. This needs to be fixed immediaty.
Your access to this forum and vBulletin.com's forum is a privilege, not a right.

Bubble #5
20 Jun 2006, 05:51
The value of the License Jelsoft sells us is directly related to the access of this forum. Is is unfair to segregate paying customers in any way shape or form other then to keep staff forums private. Until you pay more then others for a license, which we all need to pay for to play with code here, then you are entitled to no more then the guy that just got his license today. This is becoming a business issue and that is not what Jelsoft needs.
Some good points there noppid :bunny:

Erwin
20 Jun 2006, 07:19
Your access to this forum and vBulletin.com's forum is a privilege, not a right.
True in one sense, but in another sense when you pay for a vB license you also pay for some form of support and part of it is in the form of forums, at least at vB.com. :)

Brad
20 Jun 2006, 07:33
True in one sense, but in another sense when you pay for a vB license you also pay for some form of support and part of it is in the form of forums, at least at vB.com. :)
Support is still done via the ticket system. If someone gets to the point where they are banned here or at vB.com (and that does happen from time to time) they will always be able to get free support via the members area.

Using these public forums are a privilege, and if you abuse that privilege it can be taken away from you. That does not happen very often because we are all customers and Jelsoft does not want us leaving over an issue on the forum, but it does happen sometimes.

People need to keep that in mind. Your $160 + $30 a year does not buy the right to make trouble here. Not that anyone in this thread is doing that, but I wanted to point this out to everyone.

noppid
20 Jun 2006, 18:01
Your access to this forum and vBulletin.com's forum is a privilege, not a right.

Ya know what., I hope you all enjoy your private forum, but remember, it's just a few that don't want to help the open community anyway. We don't need them or their attitudes anyway.

Please do go private and stay there. I'll be with the regular people.

Jenta
20 Jun 2006, 18:13
who left? I soured on Jelsoft reps, employees, whatever ages ago and havent been by until 3.6 came out. Have to bite the bullet and see if theres some changes I needed to make for the couple of hacks I have installed.

noppid
20 Jun 2006, 18:57
who left? I soured on Jelsoft reps, employees, whatever ages ago and havent been by until 3.6 came out. Have to bite the bullet and see if theres some changes I needed to make for the couple of hacks I have installed.

That's a great idea. I'll buy you a beer if I see ya out there. Thanks for the tip.

Kirk Y
01 Jul 2006, 04:17
Ya know what., I hope you all enjoy your private forum, but remember, it's just a few that don't want to help the open community anyway. We don't need them or their attitudes anyway.

Please do go private and stay there. I'll be with the regular people.

Why does it matter so much? Trust me -- there's nothing exciting in the Coders Discussion forum. It's just some of the coders here on the site exchanging tips and getting their questions answered. Would you like pictures?

Paul M
01 Jul 2006, 04:25
Until he removed his modifications, noppid was a member of the forum, so he should/would be aware of what it contains. :)

Hornstar
01 Jul 2006, 09:03
I got a question. Which one came first, The chicken or the egg?

Kind of like the discussion about the codes and the coders. Without embracing the code there is no need for coders, and without embracing the coders there is no code.

I say there needs to be financial incentives from jelsoft to people who become 'Master Coders' and continue to support their hacks.

This way coders will strive to become "Master Coders" on the site, to not only get the name and recognition, but they would get incentives (money, discounts, can discuss this part later etc.)

To become a master coder, it would need to be more difficult then it is currently, only those people who are releasing quality hacks, supporting them, and who constantly work on releasing new hacks (requested hacks) etc. would get the title.

We need to make it a big thing to be a "master coder"

just my 2 cents.

MThornback
02 Jul 2006, 01:02
If the coders forum is for tips and tricks....I assume that means that more tutorials are comming? It doesn't make sense to me to hide the knowledge of how things work from people unless there is a benifit to everyone that comes from it.

EasyTarget
03 Jul 2006, 06:03
I say there needs to be financial incentives from jelsoft to people who become 'Master Coders' and continue to support their hacks.

This way coders will strive to become "Master Coders" on the site, to not only get the name and recognition, but they would get incentives (money, discounts, can discuss this part later etc.)

To become a master coder, it would need to be more difficult then it is currently, only those people who are releasing quality hacks, supporting them, and who constantly work on releasing new hacks (requested hacks) etc. would get the title.

We need to make it a big thing to be a "master coder"

just my 2 cents.cool, that's an idea I don't think I've heard yet. Innovative thinking.

MPDev
05 Jul 2006, 14:20
Are you people still harping on this issue? Geeeesh.... get a freaking life.

Kihon Kata
05 Jul 2006, 14:46
I'm trying to get my life, but now I can't locate it. lol

Are you people still harping on this issue? Geeeesh.... get a freaking life.

Danny.VBT
05 Jul 2006, 17:34
This thread has gone entirely too much off topic. If you have any further suggestions feel free to submit your suggestions to the current townhall thread found here:

http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=119069