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TECK
11 Jun 2006, 04:27
I'm going to open this thread, in hope that the old school coders will listen to me and try to make an arangement with the current vBulletin.org "business" administration.
In other words, they will start to participate in the forum activities, if they see significant improvements.
If you do not post in this thread, that means you do like the way it is now the community.
But if there is the smallest thing you would like to see it changed, you should raise your voice and post your thoughts.

I will start by posting how it was vBulletin.org ruled, before it started to fall apart.
The term Hacker was not a crime in the old days. A Hacker used to be a great guy/girl who helped others until his/her fingers hurt typing.

Basic Rules:
1. No paying hacks allowed. If you want to make money, you are not welcome to advertise your products at vB.org site, in links, any way or shape of promotion schemes.
2. No bashing or making fun of the new guys. Warnings and bans for those smart guys.
3. Politness is a must. You want to be rude or insultant, come back when you know how to say sorry in front of everyone and admit your mistakes. Do you really think a hacker will care that you like only plugins, being lazy to edit 2-3 lines of code in the actual VB files? He will look at you like a negative guy, not giving the smallest effort to learn something new. So why do you have to make posts like: I will never install this hack, because I only install plugins... In other words, you just said that the hours the hacker spent to create the code hack are worth crap in your eyes.
4. Help anyone, not only yourself. Do not be lazy to post, if you know the answer... someone will thank you and help you with other things... like for example promoting your website?
5. Encourage others in their work. Do you see someone working hard on a project or piece of code? Offer your help if you have the time to do it. They will be grateful.

Site Organisation:
1. This site was created for the hackers to share their vBulletin code into a safe environment. I never liked the idea of having templates or graphic forums.
We are here to create PHP and vBulletin hacks, not to make flower design or learn HTML. Those forums should be located at vBulletin.com site. With only 46 threads started into those forums, you have the answer by yourself.
2. We should see all the forums visible on the front page, like the old times. Not to navigate through a zillion forums until I get to the hack that I'm looking for. The old hack database should be written again.
3. A team of vBulletin programmers should be assigned for the site maintenance only, it should not be a burden for administrators to edit and upgrade every time to the latest vBulletin version.

Now, I invite all hackers to post their wishes, in this way we might have a chance to revive the community that is going down very fast, as we speak.
We would like to see some decissions taken, and very fast.
If you agree with my wishes, please post here and don't forget to add yours.
Hopefully we will be able to save the vB.org Titanic from sinking.

EDIT: If you think is useful, move this thread to Annoncements forum.
I want to see if others will participate in this discussion. If you don't, I guess we all have the answer what will happen to vB.org site.

Show support to this thread, add this signature to your profile:
Should vB.org be resurrected like in the old days?
Let us know.

Reeve of shinra
11 Jun 2006, 04:40
I agree with all your points except perhaps the first one.

I am not sure where I stand on the paid mod thing but lets put that aside for a second... if a mod is a good idea and seems popular, lets put some group energy into making one for the community here.

edit: I do like having template and graphics forums on here to provide a consolidated resource. Chances are, someone making a hack may need assistance with templates, etc.

TECK
11 Jun 2006, 04:49
I agree with all your points except perhaps the first one.
Reeve, I know is a delicate matter... But those were the rules on the old times.
A hacker should never charge someone for a hack, especially when it was made using the vBulletin code techniques.
In other words, I look at the vBulletin code, learn from it and then I create a hack that will work with vB, based on the vBulletin functions... then I start charging. Where is the fairness in this?
Hey, the vBulletin should charge me money for using their code property or techniques, right?

If you make a hack that does not use one single line of vB code or technique, then yes, you can sell it. But I doubt there are any paying hacks like that out there...
I do like having template and graphics forums on here to provide a consolidated resource. Chances are, someone making a hack may need assistance with templates, etc.
Very good point, those questions were adressed in the hack thread by the creator or other fellow hackers.
I was trying to put emphasis that vB.org was a hacker community. The general HTML and design questions should be answered to vBulletin.com site, since they don't interfere with any code hacking.

Boofo
11 Jun 2006, 04:55
Another rules you should add, Floren, is for those that are looking for answers to READ THE THREAD before asking questions that will most likely have been answered in that thread already. Too many users here come up with the crap "I just don't have time to read the thread" or "there are 15 pages, I don't want to have to read through the whole thread." In the old days there were sometimes 50 pages and more, but we read through them and even learned a few things along the way.

As for your idea, it is a great one but a little too late with the mentality here now, I'm afraid.

TECK
11 Jun 2006, 05:11
Bobby, we will see how people react. Hey, it's worth trying.

Also, the rule you posted it was part of the old community.
Those are not my rules, everyone have the right to post and interact in this thread.
I have as much rights to post something in this thread, as the new guy who just stepped into our community.
Way back, hackers were listening to everyone and embraced their ideas in all the constructive possible ways.

I dare you guys to call me a hacker, not a coder. :)
I already started feeling a little like in the old days, don't you think Bobby?

To bad, TeckWizards.com is gone... I will open a new site were we can all meet and discuss, if things will not change. I promise you, it will be greater then the old one. :)

Chris M
11 Jun 2006, 05:21
I still call them hacks :D - We are hackers, people these days are coders :ermm:

It would be interesting to see what would happen if we rolled back .org to 2 years ago and see if we can continue on properly from there, but thats just me :) lol...

I miss the old days :(

Now to go to sleep since I've been up for 49 hours >.> :(

Chris

Reeve of shinra
11 Jun 2006, 05:25
pfft, your getting old Chris if your complaining about not having any sleep over a weekend.

TECK
11 Jun 2006, 05:30
Now to go to sleep since I've been up for 49 hours
Haha, now we are talking as hackers! Welcome back Chris!

Chris M
11 Jun 2006, 05:35
Hehe theres only so much red bull and coffee and coke and all sorts of other highly caffeinated drinks you can consume before you feel ill and end up drifting off...

It's worse when you've been driving over 100 miles at 4am to get home :D :p

Chris

DementedMindz
11 Jun 2006, 06:18
nice thread TECK i wasnt around then but from what i have heard and read it was a much nicer place then... hey if it was nice then why not try it over again? cause things around here have been getting bad.. i am all for the vb.org not having paid hacks too.. maybe not as far as saying they cant come here but surely not spam there products... ill say one of the most spammed i think on here is that vbseo... there is links in his hacks links every where for that in his threads... i heard and seen enough of that... but i also do think if they want to do the whole paid thing they should at least have to give some kinda money back to vbulletin since its really vbulletin thats making them there money... then maybe they could hire some permant staff to watch over this site too... but thats just my thoughts im sure ill get a hell of alot of negative people posting replys for this... BUT oh well just my thoughts and how i feel...

TECK
11 Jun 2006, 06:34
A true community member, called hacker, will never bash on you... when you simply express your own thoughts.
It's not a crime to say out loud what you think, if it's said in a constructive way.

To tell you the truth, I purchased vbSEO, for the simple reason I saw no way, with the actual vB.org situation, to have a hack like that released for free.
If the code would not be encrypted, I'm sure it looks like 90% vBulletin code.
I'm pretty sure that's the reason the code is encrypted, they could not sell the product, without getting pinched by vBulletin for proprietory code usage.

I cannot use vBulletin code or techniques to develop a product, then sell it as mines.
It infringes the vBulletin copyright.

TruthElixirX
11 Jun 2006, 06:35
1. This site was created for the hackers to share their vBulletin code into a safe environment. I never liked the idea of having templates or graphic forums.
wow. just wow.

Reeve of shinra
11 Jun 2006, 06:45
Generally speaking, paid hacks aren't the problem. Some hacks are really complex and require alot of support and are worth the few extra bucks that people want to charge for it. Some aren't and chances are they wont recieve alot of purchases. It works itself out in the end for the most part and there will always be something similiar around vb.org for free for those are more inclined to using it.

But anyway...

I remember when vbulletin.org first opened up and releasing a hack was considered prestigious. No matter how big or small the modification might be (some were 2 line template edits!), it was your five minutes of glory and everyone appreciated the fact that someone took their time to contribute something back to the community.

Most of us were new to programing in general and questions were tolerated and encouraged and if people got a little snippy once in a while, its one of those things you just shrugged off - like your gf yelling at you when its her time of the month or the parking ticket you got for waking up five minutes late.

phpbb or ubb would release some mod or include some feature that vbulletin didn't have and being the proud types that we are - we rolled our own and tried to "one up" them in the process. It was competitive fun.

edit: that reminds me of another thing. Requests were more simplistic in the vb2 days. Karma was just an integer that was incremented or decreased by a button... today, people are expecting someone to replicate myspace for free. Thats an educational issue and we should do a better job of establishing expectations.


If you want to bring those golden days back, its pretty simple.

* Stop complaining. Some people love drama for the sake of drama but I for one hate it. It serves no purpose and only creates aggitation where are are striving for harmony.

* Make it easier to do business. In short thats the hack database with a wiki like function so users can contribute answers to FAQ's and the occassional code snippet to get something to work between upgrades.

* Keep it fun. No one gets paid to release thier work. Its released because someone needs it for thier own site or because they enjoy the challenge and wanted to create something. Who wants to contribute thier work when its people nagging all the time?

* Practice what we preach. We want to encourage people to post thier mods then we should give a helping hand where needed on thier projects. That doesn't mean coding it for them but encouraging them on how to go about a project, resources to check into, even perhaps books to buy.

I can go on but *yawn* it is getting late.

TECK
11 Jun 2006, 06:57
wow. just wow.
You answered like everyone else relativelly new here. A normal post will be:
Teck, what's wrong with having people posting templates and graphics at vB.org? I like having graphics templates posted... I'm actually pretty good with Photoshop! :)

Then, I would answer to you:
Hi Truth,
You are right... It's a personal oppinon.
The idea of this thread is to see what it has to be done in order to make vB.org a better place and your oppinion counts as much as mines. :)
If you have any suggestions related to this matter, please post them here.

Gio~Logist
11 Jun 2006, 06:57
I still call them hacks :D - We are hackers, people these days are coders :ermm:

It would be interesting to see what would happen if we rolled back .org to 2 years ago and see if we can continue on properly from there, but thats just me :) lol...

I miss the old days :(

Now to go to sleep since I've been up for 49 hours >.> :(

Chris

2004. Yes, that was a good year! I will probably make my usual long post about this in the morning. However, it's 3AM and i'll probably end up typing something completely useless hehe.

TECK
11 Jun 2006, 07:02
I remember when vbulletin.org first opened up and releasing a hack was considered prestigious. No matter how big or small the modification might be (some were 2 line template edits!), it was your five minutes of glory and everyone appreciated the fact that someone took their time to contribute something back to the community.

Most of us were new to programing in general and questions were tolerated and encouraged and if people got a little snippy once in a while, its one of those things you just shrugged off - like your gf yelling at you when its her time of the month or the parking ticket you got for waking up five minutes late.
So true, everything what you posted Reeve.
I can go on but *yawn* it is getting late.
You should go on, when you have time, Reeve. This is an important matter...

MJM
11 Jun 2006, 08:16
To the pioneers who made this product what it is.. Thanks!!! vB would not be what it is today if not for you efforts.
But when it comes down to the nitty gritty, you have been contributing to a commercial product.
Much has changed in the business of developing, marketing and selling interactive software since the good ole days.
And on the customer side, the cost of this software is negligble in relation to all other expenses, so, as long as it is possible to import this product to another, life-long dedication to this product can not be assured.

We are living at the cutting edge of a technological revolution and developments are happening faster than some bright minds can keep up with. I think burnout is one culprit that sends some aspiring minds to the way-side.

This is why it is imperative that there be a greater collaboration between vB.com and the coders at vB.org. (Ok, if you want to call yourself hackers, that's fine, but terminology also changes for a reason).

Overall it is you who have been greatly instrumental in the formation of ideas into practical applications.
In essence this is the site which has been pre-beta testing mods with customers, and demonstrating to vB that there is interest in these features and functionalities.

I believe vB, with the intro to 3.6 is now taking the next (albiet overdue) steps to implementing (some of) these mods into it's core products.
The path they choose to take regarding this site and the relationship between coders here remains to be seen.
I personally can say one thing for certain. Despite every mod/hack that's available here, I still need more modifications to get my vb working as desired.
We are still a long ways from perfection ;)

TECK
11 Jun 2006, 08:22
Good points MJM. For example the news robot, implemented in 3.6 version.
What would you do/change to improve the vB.org community?

Thanks for posting your thoughts.

Danny.VBT
11 Jun 2006, 09:28
Since this thread deals with vBulletin.org - I've moved it to the Site Feedback Forum.

Dean C
11 Jun 2006, 10:43
You can't enforce rules like this, it's all about attitude. Floren, this place will never be like it used to be unless it's split entirely from Jelsoft again.

Revan
11 Jun 2006, 10:59
I can't say much about the "glory days" as the only memory of vBulletin I had before joining here was when I installed a pirated vB2 on my site and was in awe at how much better it was than wBB, but I took it down because I was too scared of getting legal letters... :p


About the graphics sections, my opinion is divided.
For one I completely understand how it takes the focus away from the coding, which is what the core of this site was. But on the other hand, it's sort of frustrating for users (ie non-hackers/designers) to have to register on three sites in order to get everything official vBulletin has to offer. vBcom, vBorg and vBTemp.
I suppose this could be remedied by allowing the graphics sections to be completely hidden, similar to the 3.0 and 2.0 forums can (or should) be.

Your post elaborates on something I said in one of the drama threads, something like "What makes a newbie into a hacker? Willpower and motivation. The newbie is responsible for the willpower, vBorg is responsible for the motivation."
I use the term newbie meaning someone new to this site.

What do you propose we do about whiners? I mean people like in the "for those who have left" thread who can do nothing but put down every single attempt the staff does at accomodating the hackers' wishes.

What do you propose we do about offering motivation? Not everybody releases their work because they use it on the site. To use myself as an example, I used to work on the RPG because I used it on my forum, but now I dont have one and therefore that motivation is lost. I only not quit working on the hack because Id feel bad about saying "well sod this, Im out.", so do you have any solution as to providing motivation to keep coming back to code?

Hope to hear more on this, and pray this thread be free of lamers.

MJM
11 Jun 2006, 11:03
Well ... firstly I want to say that I don't think the essence or spirit of this community is lost. It is (mostly) preserved in all the contributions that have been made to this site.
Most vB users, (including me) don't regularly come here to gain insight through these discussions or ponder inhouse debate, but to utilize the mods that others have generously provided.
It is only a relatively small number who are part of daily going-ons, or return from the past and may perceive mole hills as mountains, so to speak.

I am writing for several reasons ...
This software, combined with a photo gallery application means very very much too me. It has enabled me on a small income to put my life's work on the net in an interactive community environment. My wishes were simply to share info, ideas and experiences regarding my profession - as a mostly recreational artist in a specialized medium - in a non-commercial environment.
It has evolved, from a site comprised of mostly newbies wanting to learn, to increasing numbers of up-and-coming professionals who need to find ways to make a living from their acquired talents.
(even though a large number of members use their talents primarily as a recreational hobby)

Now I am faced with the challenge of deciding what level or direction of commercialization to take the site, without losing the integrity of a site that was based on sharing without expectation of monetary gains.

This is where I see similarities.
vB.org has provided this community for learning and sharing.
Now many have become or are becoming professionals and need to make something from it to justify the effort spent.
(even though a large number share their talents and consider it a recreational hobby)

There is another similarity
In proportion to my membership base, and to vB's membership base, it is only a small percentage of members who have made most of the contributions of content, or code to the community.

This clearly demonstrates that it is not necessary to provide a commercial platform for the whole world to engage in, but rather, one could bring together a smaller team of professionals to develop content/code, and thereby retain the integrity of the community as one of members helping members.
This still leaves open the possibility of having a separate paid resource directory.

Well, as a non-coder I'm not qualified to give any opinions on the direction of vB.org but to wish you the best.
Thanks for giving me the opportunity to share these thoughts.

Goodnight ... er good morning :)
Mark

Lottis
11 Jun 2006, 18:07
Wow, i dident even know that it worked out this way once.
I purshased a lisens fore three years ago, perhaps four. Stopped counting.
But i dident dare to try out any hacks. Silly me, but i was a complete newbee and rather paid other to do it.
So i missed the "glory" days.

I pretty mutch agree to all your points, TECK. But i fell there is plenty of room fore both designers and coders/hackers.
The skills of some of the grafic and designs are fore me, absolut fabiolus.
The same goes to the hackers/coders.

Not everyone have been sitting infront of there computers since they turned 13- 14 years old. Most of this is a new world to me.

I think there have been to mutch demanding. When someone demands other peopel to do something, they simply wont do it.

I think one of the most importent thing here is, witch role should admin/moderator have in this place.
Cant they also bee members to? Like Boofo, hes always happy and always try to see the things positiv. But instead, hes getting crap fore not beeing to seriuos.

The worst thing i can read here, is a smartass, that thinks everyone is in a high skills level with codes Yes, we can get better using the sears button. But it isent always we get a good answer just by searshing.

Isent vBorg a playground actually, shouldent it be fun to be here?
Some peopel, do this fore a living. So i understand that they have to get paid some how.

*sorry fore my bad english*

tehste
11 Jun 2006, 18:25
I don't like your first point and the other points... Well they are no fun!

Boofo
11 Jun 2006, 18:41
I don't like your first point and the other points... Well they are no fun!

Which post are you referring to? You totally lost me there. :cross-eyed:

TECK
11 Jun 2006, 19:01
I don't like your first point and the other points... Well they are no fun!
Hi tehste,

Please post what you think it should be organized the vB.org community.
Avoid the stereotype that people adopted on this site. Tell us why you don't like the points, develop, discuss, interact with people.

tehste
11 Jun 2006, 22:09
Ok the people running this site have made some mistakes. The biggest problem is between peaks of activity they all dissapear. There are too many personal battles going on which takes its toll. Also I think because Jelsoft are so -involved- they should either appoint the staff or remove their involvement.

The second reason is the attitude of the users. Just because someone has a vbulletin license does not give them the right to free support on community addons. If the features you want aren't there why not add them yourself. Or atleast try! Ok so your not willing to spend some time learning or as it is said: "I can't code because I don't have the time LOL". Ironically I can't be bothered finishing this point.

Thirdly the staff restructure is lame and will only make things messier. :)

michaelbenson
11 Jun 2006, 22:21
I don't see how retaining a ban on the promotion and discussion of commerical modifications will help to build a cohesive environment? Rather than completely ignore and disregard the existence of these modifications why not generate a self moderated database or directory of these modifications which are after all helping to contribute towards the vBulletin "experience". Rather than being an "Ultimate vBulletin Resource (minus all commercial entities)", why not actually live upto your slogan?

Tralala
11 Jun 2006, 22:31
Ok the people running this site have made some mistakes. The biggest problem is between peaks of activity they all dissapear. There are too many personal battles going on which takes its toll. Also I think because Jelsoft are so -involved- they should either appoint the staff or remove their involvement.
Agreed, wholeheartedly. I'm relatively new here, but the personal conflicts, vendettas and agendas seem clear.

The second reason is the attitude of the users. Just because someone has a vbulletin license does not give them the god given right to free support on community addons. If the features you want aren't there why not add them yourself. Or atleast try! Ok so your not willing to spend some time learning or as it is said: "I can't code because I don't have the time LOL". Ironically I can't be bothered finishing this point.
I'll agree with this too, but I've seen some attitude from coders too. If you make suggestions or ask questions about how to modify something in their code to better suit your needs, they get surly. It can be tough for a beginner, trying to learn, in an environment like that.

Thirdly the staff restructure is lame and will only make things messier. :)
I'm inclined to agree on this too, but am willing to wait and see.

At the very least I'd like to know why an innocuous post I'd made here (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=117757) was deleted within 5 minutes of me making it, with no explanation whatsoever to me. I PM'ed a bunch of staff members, and got no answer.

This place sure feels weird at times... like children are running the show. Considering it's a forum of forum administrators, one would think those in positions of authority would have a very strong handle on these matters.

Revan
11 Jun 2006, 22:32
Ok its 00:30 so Im gonna be brief.


Ok the people running this site have made some mistakes. The biggest problem is between peaks of activity they all dissapear. There are too many personal battles going on which takes its toll. Also I think because Jelsoft are so -involved- they should either appoint the staff or remove their involvement.Agreed.
The second reason is the attitude of the users. Just because someone has a vbulletin license does not give them the god given right to free support on community addons. If the features you want aren't there why not add them yourself. Or atleast try! Ok so your not willing to spend some time learning or as it is said: "I can't code because I don't have the time LOL". Ironically I can't be bothered finishing this point.Agreed + laffin not-quite-out loud.
Thirdly the staff restructure is lame and will only make things messier. :)Disagreed.
I think the staff restructure can not only lead to good things (more features(coding)/better design(design)/better customer support(customer)) but its a way of rewarding deserving contributors to the site (with one exception for unknown reasons... (please dont take this personally christianb, I don't know you and Im sure your a great guy and a good coder, I just have never heard about you before you showed up on the staff page :p))

Ok that was too many parenthesisesees, Im off for sleep.
And yes Im fully aware I will feel dumb for writing this dribble in the morning.

tgreer
11 Jun 2006, 23:49
I have no problem with people posting free plugins. In fact, I join all the others in expressing gratitude for those willing to provide free plugins. I too deplore the "entitlement" attitude that many of the hackers/coders have had to deal with, and understand the frustrations that can cause.

I think the site should definitely have stricter standards about thread management, and these standards/principles rigorously enforced by the staff, whether or not that staff is paid or volunteer. Though it has angered some, to have their posts deleted, threads split or moved, I can only say in the long run, it's for the best, and I hope the trend continues.

The "big issue" for me, though, is the door this site slams in the face of any who want to learn/teach vBulletin development, but who for good reasons don't want to code a plugin for public release. Many very good, very professional, very helpful developers are being shut out of this community.

Without intending any disrespect to the coders here, I think there is too much emphasis on that aspect of vbulletin.org, and not enough on open coding discussions in general. I would respectfully request, once again, that the Coders Discussion be made public.

joeychgo
12 Jun 2006, 03:37
Just my .02 about something...

One thing that bothers me about paid hacks - is when people post hacks for paid hacks.

To be clear, I am NOT voicing an opinion either way about the advertsiing about paid hacks.

But I came across a hack the other day that sayid I had to have VBSEO installed to use the hack. I think, if you want to hack a paid hack, advertise it on the product's board, not here.

MJM
12 Jun 2006, 04:49
Basic Rules:
1. No paying hacks allowed. If you want to make money, you are not welcome to advertise your products at vB.org site, in links, any way or shape of promotion schemes.

When I started my recreational arts and crafts site, I stipulated - no ads or links of any way shape or form.

Over time a number of working artisans had provided very helpful info and how-to instructions, so, at my discretion, I added links to valued members websites in their profile and signatures.

The #1 cardinal rule is NEVER DISCUSS PRICE OR BUSINESS TRANSACTIONS AT THE SITE.

This has been abided by flawlessly for 5 years - till today!
A new member joins and asks how to make something.
In my reply, I linked to a posting by a valued member who had provided a pictorial construction tutorial.

This new member goes to his site, checks his prices, then has the audacity to reply to his thread in the nastiest tone ... $XXX!!! - USERNAME FROM XYZ.COM IS A RIP-OFF! etc etc etc.
Fortunately I was able to immediately delete this post, ban this user, and email this valued member and apologize.

Lesson learned is that you can never have a completely foolproof interactive community, because a jerk is born every minute, and one day one will find your site.
I firmly believe that a site that is valued for quality and integrity must be cultivated 24/7 - with weeding hoe always in hand.

Princeton
12 Jun 2006, 13:53
Stop living in the past ...
The internet is evolving.
vBulletin is evolving. eg. it's a lot easier to add new features
The way people surf the net is evolving.
There are more programmers and/or newbies.
There are more vbulletin resources.Most sites "fall apart" because they do not change. If you cannot keep up with the "evolution" than you might as well give up.

The problem with vb.org is that it really hasn't changed.
Yea, some minor things but nothing concrete.
NOTE: I'm one that's been on this board since the start of vbulletin 2.

So, each time somone says, "back in the old days" ... I cringe.
I mean ... what is that suppose to mean?

I'll bet 5 years from now ... people will be referring to today as "back in the old days". :D

TECK
12 Jun 2006, 15:23
Stop living in the past ...
So far you are the only one feeling like that. I don't feel like living in the past, but I do want to see at vB.org the same atmosphere like 4 years ago. That's not called living in the past, but applying something that was working for the community.
An example for "people living in the past"... How do you explain those TV commercials that pass now on and they look like the 70's commercials?
I guess the producers are living in the past also...

First, how can you explain that people are not happy with the shape vB.org is taking?
vB.org changed a lot, that's the reason many good people left. And many people complain because the actual changes.
In short, there is no support like it was before and the forums are a mess not the mention the people's attitude.
There will be a ton more of users complaining if they would be registered and active users since 2001-2002.
Second, you cannot know the golden vB.org years because you were not here to post and and interact with hackers activelly, even if it shows into your registration date.
You started being active at vB.org when VB3 came out. Visiting only to download a hack and post one reply/week is not called active.
As a matter of fact, you consider yourself active with 1.16 posts/day?
And you are part of the support Team? What kind of support you offer to people with 1.16 posts/ day? I'll let you be the judge...

So telling people to stop living in the past is a little insulting, don't you think?

Ntfu2
12 Jun 2006, 15:26
Another thing that should be outlawed is when someone is developing a hack, people respond with "Yes, MAKE IT, I'd PAY GOOD MONEY FOR THIS HACK!!!" i was recently reading a thread in the modification discussion forum and saw probably about 12 of these posts..... :dumb:

Princeton
12 Jun 2006, 15:28
How do you explain those TV commercials that pass now on and they look like the 70's commercials?they are selling something new ... something that has evolved ... they are not trying to sell you the same jeans from the 70's ... it may look the same but the product and the message is different

vB.org changed a lot, that's the reason many good people leftCan you provide us with a detailed list on how vb.org changed? Please provide us with specifics. No generalizing as that does not help anyone.

you cannot know the golden vB.org years because you were not here to post and and interact with hackers activelly, even if it shows into your registration date.I don't know about you ... but, one does not have to be registered nor "participate" to enjoy a site and get to know people.

Can you give us a description of what you expect from a staff member? On your site, on this site, on any site.


By the way ... I'm trying to reinforce your message.
Your message really is not helpful in it's current form.
It may make you feel better .. but, it does not help in any form.

If it makes you feel better, you can continue to degrade my "status" as it does not hurt me. But, I do hope that you keep this thread in a positive direction.

Dean C
12 Jun 2006, 15:37
TECK is right princeton, you weren't around when the old school folks were.

Nevertheless it's naive to think that things don't change, but one would expect change for the better :)

tgreer
12 Jun 2006, 15:45
Staff Responsibilities / Behavior:


Welcome new members, acquainting them with the site structure and operation.
Keep threads on-topic: split, merge, move, delete.
Respond to 'Site Feedback' in a prompt and professional manner. Site Feedback is between the member with the praise/complaint, and the staff... not a free-for-all unless so indicated, such as this thread.
Delete useless posts, or off-topic posts.
Monitor inactive threads... close them after a reasonable time so they aren't pointlessly "bumped".
Monitor posts with no replies. PM members whom you think could reply, pointing them to the post.
Avoid conflicts of interest. If a staff member is involved in a thread, another staff member should perform any moderation tasks that might be required for that thread.
In general, work to make the forum productive and pleasant for all, suggesting and implementing features to make it more accessible (not less).

Princeton
12 Jun 2006, 15:51
tgreer,

Thank you ... it's appreciated.

FYI: I agree on a lot of what you posted. :up:

TECK
12 Jun 2006, 16:13
They are not trying to sell you the same jeans from the 70's ... it may look the same but the product and the message is different...
Excellent point Princeton. That's what we have to do also, apply the old vB.org traditions to a new product, being used by new users

Can you provide us with a detailed list on how vb.org changed?
Since the site growed gradually, there were no taken mesures to increase the staff and improve their hacker skills.
The staff remained small while the site growed exponentially, into a different direction.
No decissions were taken to help the Staff with the vB.org coding, Stefan (Xenon) was the only one who hammerd the hole vBulletin.org site, doing hours and hours of upgrade code.
Did someone offered him help from Staff? It's a question not an agressive remark.

Before, the vB.org administration used to ask the users if they want for example the forums displayed in a different way or if they want any extra features.
The new decissions were without involving the hacker community. vB.org exists because of the hackers. No hacks, no visitors, is that simple.
You outline the hackers, they will leave and your community loses.

In the old time we did not have private forums, for hackers.
What if I'm a newbie and I want to learn? Why would you outside me from the speciffic discussions?
As a matter of fact, we used to encourage newbies to learn so our hacker community grows stronger.

In the past, the personal vendetas between users were not allowed.
Now, anyone can say anything about anybody, especially newbies.
If you are a "coder", you "have the right" to threat a newbie as idiot with remarks like:
How clearer do you want me to say it? Can you read this line: (Quote from the hack)...
Why not be kind and professional, encouraging him/her that he did a great job but he missed a certain line in the help file?
The "hero" attitude does not help in a community.
This phenomenon happened because the Staff let it go, instead of being in control, like in the old days.
You will tell me that the forums growed a lot. Well that's why we hire more mods. I don't see any lose of control at vBulletin.com site.

I cannot think of other reasons for now... but they will come to my mind and I will post them here, promise.
I'm not here to degrade people, especially you, Princeton.
I was simply highlighting the facts. You cannot improve a community if their Staff does not participate activelly into it. Like vB.org staff used to be, in the "golden days".
But I simply try to reflect the the lack of interest/responsability that patrons as we speak at vBulletin.org site.

All the best,

Floren

MJM
12 Jun 2006, 16:14
Unfortunately turmoil, agitation, anxieties and loss of sleep are a natural process in the evolution of making changes.
We just have to hope that we make it through the other side and still retain our dignity and reasons for making change happen.
My wife and I work as a team when it comes to installing mods and doing upgrades, and I can tell you that dealing with software applications is one of the most difficult challenges of retaining our marital bliss.
I suppose the fact that we have made it this far has made our relationship even stronger, which is what I also hope for with this site.

All the best,
Mark

Marco van Herwaarden
12 Jun 2006, 16:27
So far you are the only one feeling like that. I don't feel like living in the past, but I do want to see at vB.org the same atmosphere like 4 years ago. That's not called living in the past, but applying something that was working for the community.
An example for "people living in the past"... How do you explain those TV commercials that pass now on and they look like the 70's commercials?
I guess the producers are living in the past also...

First, how can you explain that people are not happy with the shape vB.org is taking?
vB.org changed a lot, that's the reason many good people left. And many people complain because the actual changes.
In short, there is no support like it was before and the forums are a mess not the mention the people's attitude.
There will be a ton more of users complaining if they would be registered and active users since 2001-2002.
Second, you cannot know the golden vB.org years because you were not here to post and and interact with hackers activelly, even if it shows into your registration date.
You started being active at vB.org when VB3 came out. Visiting only to download a hack and post one reply/week is not called active.
As a matter of fact, you consider yourself active with 1.16 posts/day?
And you are part of the support Team? What kind of support you offer to people with 1.16 posts/ day? I'll let you be the judge...

So telling people to stop living in the past is a little insulting, don't you think?Personally i would not have used the sentence "Stop Living in the past..". It is not up to me to tell you in what time you should live.

I however do share the thought behind it.

In my view:
- vB.org did hardly change in the last couple of years.
- vB.org Community however did change a lot.

In the past vB.org Community consisted for a big part of people who where either a Coder or someone who wanted/needed to learn coding at some level. The active part of the community where communicating because they shared the same interest, or where forced to be interested if they wanted to run their boards how they wanted. This gave a common topic to talk about.

Nowadays Coders or people interested in coding are by far in the minority. Also a big number of the non-coding part of the memberbase has become more interested in receiving help/answers/solutions that don't require much effort from their side. All they want is a simple and direct answer to any question they ask. Also because they mostly don't talk the "same language" as coders anymore, you will get more and more misunderstandings or failures to communicate with each other. I think coders still want to communicate, and even want to help out people who don't know much about coding, but if 99% of the posts are not "interesting" to read/answer, their input will often be reduced over time, simply because they don't have the feeling they belong in this conversation. Or simply because there are nowadays so many posts each day, that they get overwhelmed, and stick to only reading/replying to those topics they find interesting.

In my personal view we can never go back to how it once was, simply because the memberbase has changed to much.

PS I am generalizing in the above. Where i write Coder, you could also read Designer or any other member that is helping out the community for example by answering questions.

Cyburbia
12 Jun 2006, 16:28
I really don't like the new forum layout/hierarchy, where the mods and mod requests are buried.

Marco van Herwaarden
12 Jun 2006, 16:36
Oops i almost forgot to add my conclusion to my story above:

vB.org has too long not changed, simply because it once was running fine. We now have to do some "overdue maintenance" in how we run this site. That must be done, and it is ok to look back at our history, and try to take all the good parts from it. However it is in my opinion not possible to simply say let's turn back time, because then we had so much more fun, with such a changed memberbase.

MJM
12 Jun 2006, 16:40
I mostly certainly agree that since the advent of plugins/add-ons that you will get many more know-nothings looking-for-a-quicky members (like me :blush:) frequenting this site.

joeychgo
12 Jun 2006, 18:09
In the past vB.org Community consisted for a big part of people who where either a Coder or someone who wanted/needed to learn coding at some level. The active part of the community where communicating because they shared the same interest, or where forced to be interested if they wanted to run their boards how they wanted. This gave a common topic to talk about.


I agree.

And I for one and glad I was around back then. Because it forced me to learn a bit of coding. Im no coder, but I can install a hack and follow instructions. I have some basic knowledge. This is all thanks to vb.org and how it used to be.

TECK
12 Jun 2006, 18:24
Let's keep this in mind:
Without the hackers, there is no vB.org community, period.
Now, what will vB.org Staff do to keep them here happy and posting?

If nobody is interested in the actual coding, but only into easy plugins installs, where is the fun for hackers to interact with the hack users?
Most of users would not understand what the hacker did because they don't even touch the piece of code, just a few clicks and it's all done... The drive to learn code was gone from vB.org site, even for basic elements only.
The result? No more hacks published, member tensions, lack of presence.

Marco van Herwaarden
12 Jun 2006, 18:31
Let's keep this in mind:
Without the hackers, there is no vB.org community, period.
Now, what will vB.org Staff do to keep them here happy and posting?

If nobody is interested in the actual coding, but only into easy plugins installs, where is the fun for hackers to interact with the hack users?
Most of users would not understand what the hacker did because they don't even touch the piece of code, just a few clicks and it's all done... The drive to learn code was gone from vB.org site, even for basic elements only.
The result? No more hacks published, member tensions, lack of presence.We are trying to make changes that will benefit everyone in this community, so that all will feel part of the community. Not just for Coders or any other group here on vb.org.

If we can do that, then the fun will also come back, hopefully for all groups.

Gio~Logist
12 Jun 2006, 18:34
Let's keep this in mind:
Without the hackers, there is no vB.org community, period.
Now, what will vB.org Staff do to keep them here happy and posting?

If nobody is interested in the actual coding, but only into easy plugins installs, where is the fun for hackers to interact with the hack users?
Most of users would not understand what the hacker did because they don't even touch the piece of code, just a few clicks and it's all done... The drive to learn code was gone from vB.org site, even for basic elements only.
The result? No more hacks published, member tensions, lack of presence.

Which is probably why you liked it better back in the 2.3.x days when people had to go through literally 50 steps for a store hack or an average of 10 steps for others. However, things change and the user interface is a lot better and it's now easier for them. In the end, we are the coders and they're the users. They don't care what code is behind it. Even if they did, they can always resort to the plugin itself.

I highly doubt that releasing hacks again with 10-50 steps for an installation will help in any way to change vb.org's atmosphere to a positive one.

TECK
12 Jun 2006, 19:40
They don't care what code is behind it. Even if they did, they can always resort to the plugin itself.
People used to care about the code and they were proud to learn and post their own hacks after. It was their moment of glory, as Reeve of shinra said in this thread.
I highly doubt that releasing hacks again with 10-50 steps for an installation will help in any way to change vb.org's atmosphere to a positive one.
I totally agree with you, Giovanni.
The Staff must find something to replace the lack of interest that started to govern among hackers a while ago. basically, they are the ones who generate traffic at vB.org site.
I personally don't see anything else, beside code based discussions, that will attract hackers back.

So let's post some constructive solutions.
We are here to discuss them, not only to agree or disagree to certain people.
What do you think it should be done? Let us all know.

Thanks.

In the past vB.org Community consisted for a big part of people who where either a Coder or someone who wanted/needed to learn coding at some level. The active part of the community where communicating because they shared the same interest, or where forced to be interested if they wanted to run their boards how they wanted. This gave a common topic to talk about.

Nowadays Coders or people interested in coding are by far in the minority. Also a big number of the non-coding part of the memberbase has become more interested in receiving help/answers/solutions that don't require much effort from their side. All they want is a simple and direct answer to any question they ask. Also because they mostly don't talk the "same language" as coders anymore, you will get more and more misunderstandings or failures to communicate with each other. I think coders still want to communicate, and even want to help out people who don't know much about coding, but if 99% of the posts are not "interesting" to read/answer, their input will often be reduced over time, simply because they don't have the feeling they belong in this conversation. Or simply because there are nowadays so many posts each day, that they get overwhelmed, and stick to only reading/replying to those topics they find interesting.
Very good resume, Marco. Glad you are aware about vB.org biggest issue, IMO.

tgreer
12 Jun 2006, 20:52
There are people who wish to code their own plugins, rather than release them for the public. There are people who wish to learn the vBulletin source code, for their own reasons, not with releasing plugins as a goal. There are programmers who wish to speak to other programmers about vBulletin development, without releasing a plugin as a goal. There are people who wish to have design/coding discussions, who don't use any of the plugins here. There are people who could provide valuable insight into coding, PHP, MySQL, xhtml, css, graphic design... who don't want to release plugins. If vbulletin.org is to grow, it has to stop being one-dimensional.

TECK
12 Jun 2006, 21:57
Right on the dot, Tgreer.
All the events you listed above were done in the golden days, on a daily bassis. Any regular can confirm it.
However, this interest is gone now. Now, what people care more is why the "plugins" are not released for VB3.X, instead of asking/understanding why they are not working.

Freesteyelz
12 Jun 2006, 22:59
What if I'm a newbie and I want to learn? Why would you outside me from the speciffic discussions?
As a matter of fact, we used to encourage newbies to learn so our hacker community grows stronger.


I like your statement here very much. The only way to successfully evolve and survive is to share the knowledge with one another. A great suggestion which can be found in this thread (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=117927) speaks about a program consisting of Mentors. Having such a program will be a positive for our community. :)

Christine
12 Jun 2006, 23:09
When I started posting here right after Chen opened the site, I spent hours upon hours pouring over the Help Me Finish forum. I learned so much about working with vBulletin that I can't even say. Remember the days before template conditionals? :D

I am not saying things should go 'back' per se -- as noted, back in the day, we were all hunting through thousands of lines of code to find that elusive undocumented function call we needed to write hack X. Good grief, I wrote a persistent Mark Forum Read for v3 that was 18 pages of instructions when printed -- 14 php files had to be hacked. LOL!!

Why didn't I release it here? Well, because of life and work, I didn't want to support the repeated questions by people who couldn't be bothered to read the well documented information -- or the thread itself.

So -- you can count me in as being part of the problem. Rather than dealing with it (and mostly a lack of time), I have only released things that are so plug-n-play that no one even needs to think to load them up.

I credit this as part of the problem you are mentioning, and no one to blame but myself. If I had more time and patience -- I would love to go back to the collaborative efforts of the Help Me Finish forums.

That said, with the software evolving as much as it has today -- most of the core hacks are already accomodated in the core release. What I end up doing is basically modifying things that are so unique to my own needs that I don't release them as most wouldn't find meaning in stuff like adding the sort on userid to the approve members list or adding the sort on usergroupid to the PM stats review.

Sorry this is so long -- just wanted to note that I know where you are coming from. I cut my teeth here back then as well. I also know that with the evolution of the software -- things change, needs change, and while my board is highly hacked -- it isn't the same kind of major functionality, team effort required stuff like back then when we didn't even have a workable PM system.

phpbb or ubb would release some mod or include some feature that vbulletin didn't have and being the proud types that we are - we rolled our own and tried to "one up" them in the process. It was competitive fun.

edit: that reminds me of another thing. Requests were more simplistic in the vb2 days. Karma was just an integer that was incremented or decreased by a button... today, people are expecting someone to replicate myspace for free. Thats an educational issue and we should do a better job of establishing expectations. ^^ Agreed...

Freesteyelz
12 Jun 2006, 23:28
it is ok to look back at our history, and try to take all the good parts from it. However it is in my opinion not possible to simply say let's turn back time, because then we had so much more fun, with such a changed memberbase.

Nice statement. :)

------------------------


I highly doubt that releasing hacks again with 10-50 steps for an installation will help in any way to change vb.org's atmosphere to a positive one.

On the issue with hack-types: I love the plugin system. It really does simplify the installation process. Now I come from the UBB days where we hacked every .cgi and .pl file. That's how it was and I didn't question.

I appreciated the fact that to customize my board I had to get my hands dirty in the process. Many of the users felt the same way, novice to veterans. The process of hacking forced you to learn and gave you the motivation to expand your skill level.

When I came to vB I was amazed how different this software is to UBB. I was surely overwhelmed, like many here who've purchased vB without having a clue on how it worked. It was my UBB background, getting my hands dirty, that helped me sift through vB's routines to create and to modify.

The plugins are awesome but unless you look through the codes you won't benefit from it. You have a hack but didn't come out more knowledgable. Template hacks and hacks in general that require manual changes help in the long run because it provides an opportunity for users to ask questions, fix problems and apply the codes themselves. It also strenghtens authors' PR skills and patience. While we can benefit from all hack-types, sometimes the old-school methods do have its place in the growth of a community.

d8tabyte
12 Jun 2006, 23:52
I am pretty new here in comparison with all of you, but I know forums, and I know communities. Why sit around moping, whining about those who left and the new changes? What you need to do to make it like the old days, is take some personal responsibility.

You guys have a great community here, but the more you try to hold on to those who want to leave and the old ways, the faster this place is going to fall apart, like sand through your fingers. Let it go - move on and shoulder these ideals together - march on and rebuild the foundations that have broken and you will find that it was you all that made this community what is, not just those who walked away.

Every thread you post on this matter helps to destroy this community, not fix it. These conversations are better had behind the curtains by those who can make a difference, not by the general mob.

Just my opinion - and sorry if I step out of bounds giving it.

Gio~Logist
13 Jun 2006, 01:38
People used to care about the code and they were proud to learn and post their own hacks after. It was their moment of glory, as Reeve of shinra said in this thread.

I totally agree with you, Giovanni.
The Staff must find something to replace the lack of interest that started to govern among hackers a while ago. basically, they are the ones who generate traffic at vB.org site.
I personally don't see anything else, beside code based discussions, that will attract hackers back.

So let's post some constructive solutions.
We are here to discuss them, not only to agree or disagree to certain people.
What do you think it should be done? Let us all know.

Thanks.


Very good resume, Marco. Glad you are aware about vB.org biggest issue, IMO.

Your ability to be so open minded is very much appreciated and that is what vb.org can use. We have those that are so set on how things used to be (i love how things were two years ago as well and would love the atmosphere to be the same, but understand that things change) and we have some people that are so set in their own ways that they don't put the effort for change. Being open minded and open to suggestions is what this site needs.

I personally only started coding because of this site as well and a lot of my customers that i get now are from this site. Those who chose to learn and expand their horizons with this site will make it far, yes. However, otherwise.. we cannot force people to learn. Therefore, trying our best to make this site more of a learning process for users is not to easy.

What this site can use it a better GUI and setup. A hack database is not just a separate page with a query pulling up hack forums and excluding them on the forumhome. The hacks deserve a better GUI, the install system should be more integrated to make users actually want to click the link, and something should be given to the people who contribute to this site (whether it be a coder or designer). Not saying give give give, but a few perks will lead to motivation. And the further integration of the install system will lead to more motivation as well because then people will actually click install and some coders will enjoy that and competing more and such. I think that we should have things a bit more code/design oriented. We have hack of the month, that's nice. However, how about coder/designer of the month? What about even a mod of the month? Motivation and dedication is all that's needed. Once that is put fourth, the rest will fall into perspective.

Paul M
13 Jun 2006, 02:05
Am I missing something ? We already have a mod of the month (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=94).

cheesegrits
13 Jun 2006, 03:03
Here's an oxymoron (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/oxymoron):

Do you really think a hacker will care that you like only plugins, being lazy to edit 2-3 lines of code in the actual VB files?

... and ...

3. A team of vBulletin programmers should be assigned for the site maintenance only, it should not be a burden for administrators to edit and upgrade every time to the latest vBulletin version.

First you say people are being lazy if they don't want to edit files directly, then you seem to be saying it's entirely reasonable to require a team of programmers to upgrade a vB site.

Why do you think vBulletin has gotten itself a reputation as being an absolute pig to upgrade? And why do you think the authors have gone to such trouble to create the plugin / hook / product mechanisms? Because of all those friendly neighborhood hackers encouraging everyone to merrily hack away on their PHP files, making upgrading a complete nightmare.

If you can possibly code what you need using the upgrade-proof API, you should. And I don't blame the vB authors for trying to encourage you to. If you take those shortcuts, it's not the people who don't want to install your hacks who are being lazy, it's you.

Just my $0.02. YMMV. Etc.

-- hugh

Gio~Logist
13 Jun 2006, 03:05
Am I missing something ? We already have a mod of the month (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=94).

if($post[postid] == '58'){
define("mod","moderator");
}
;)

Paul M
13 Jun 2006, 03:15
Oh, right .... That's a bit confusing, same word for two things. :D

Gio~Logist
13 Jun 2006, 03:22
Oh, right .... That's a bit confusing, same word for two things. :D

Hehe. Yes indeed :p

Adrian Schneider
13 Jun 2006, 03:31
if($post[postid] == '58'){
define("mod","moderator");
}
;)
To fix your code:
define('postid', 'postcount');
if($post[postid] == 58){
define("mod","moderator");// (why) lol
}

Gio~Logist
13 Jun 2006, 03:42
To fix your code:
define('postid', 'postcount');
if($post[postid] == 58){
define("mod","moderator");// (why) lol
}

I was testing Paul, he failed to add that.

Adrian Schneider
13 Jun 2006, 04:07
I was testing Paul, he failed to add that.
Oh okay. ;)

Well I have nothing relevant to add to this thread, so... toodles.

EasyTarget
13 Jun 2006, 05:23
reading through this I get the feeling that the disagreements on living in the past/moving forward are mostly just a misunderstanding of what is meant by each party.

When teck is talking about going back to the old days (correct me if I'm wrong) I don't think he's saying to roll the board back to be like vb version X and to get the same staff, etc. I think he means to make it feel like the old days. (I wasn't here, so I'm going from what has been posted) Make it so new members don't hesitate to jump into a discussion/ask a quesin, where there's a good ration of moderators to members so the moderators aren't over burdened, where respect and appreciation is the common characteristics between hackers and those who click install. Also make it so its easy to find what you're looking for.. Unless I've read this wrong, it seems like these were characteristics of the old .org

And when the mods are talking about change, I don't think they mean (correct me if I'm wrong again) that we need to change from that feeling, but we need to change things in order to get that feeling. The community has grown and in order to capture the feel that everyone is looking for some things are going to have to be done differently.

my personal opinion is that a graphics section is beneficial and that if more attention were given to it that it could thrive as well. I remember that .org was split into 2 websites before, one with styles and one with the hacks. I was new, but it seemed to me that the styles/graphics were pretty active, and I'm accounting this to the fact that there were probably enough people to put time into it.

As far as the paid hacks stuff I kinda hae a different idea than most people I think. I would love to contribute some $$ to all of the authors of mods that I am using, however, I'm using quite a bit. What I would love is for there to be some standard that hackers must meet and maintain and when they do then they all split the pot of donations. So I could donate say $5 a month or whenever I could, and it would be split among those authors who are interested and have lived up to whatever the standards might be. This way you're avoid the commerical aspect of the site while still allowing people to be somewhat reimbursed for their efforts. (I know there'd be lots to discuss and many obstacles to a system like this, I'm just stating what I think is a new approach to the problem)

I think tgreer made some great comments about moderator responsibilities (I'd only add the split function to move off-topic posts, unless the post has offensive content or whatever). If more moderators are needed so that the site can be comprehensively moderated is such a manner, then so be it.

As far as the attitude stuff, maybe more effort needs to be put forth so that new members realize that the hackers aren't employees here, they're doing this for free on their own free time for our benefit. I think its easy to look at this site as an extension of the .com and expect answers and support to unreasonable questions/demands.

As far as the coding discussions, I think if the hacks were put back in the forum database somewhat like they were before then this would encourage more questions and discussions about it. As it is now if I'm looking at hacks and what to make a general question I have to go to a totally different part of the site to do so.. making it less likely that I will.

Regarding the attitudes of coders toward new members, I'm not sure what to say, except maybe what has already been said, that a moderator could kindly/objectively step in. I think part of the problem may be that there are so many new members that we overwhelm the hackers with our questions.. which usually have already been answered, and after answering us back 1000 times they begin to tire of it and that's when the authors start coming across with the better than you attitude. So maybe some sort of reminder, if you have < 25 or 50 posts and you try to make a new post, which encourages you to us to use the search function first and completely read the thread before we ask a question. Also maybe that thread which tells you how to search more effectively can be brought up if they search and get too little or too many results, or if they have a small number of posts or activity level?


sorry for the essay.. continue.

TECK
13 Jun 2006, 05:35
Every thread you post on this matter helps to destroy this community, not fix it. These conversations are better had behind the curtains by those who can make a difference, not by the general mob.

Just my opinion - and sorry if I step out of bounds giving it.
I agree that whining does not help, but I truly believe that we don't do this here.
I'm confident that the vB.org administration already started taking notes from this thread in order to lineup certain rules that will make happy both worlds, hackers and users.

Your oppinion counts, do not be shy. We will not criticize you... I could actully say say that we thank you for posting guidelines and personal oppinions. :)
That's what it's missing guys/girls: guidelines to what we want us, the vB.org community.
However, I do not agree that this should be done behing our back by the administration, that's actually the worst thing you could do... decide for people how things will be in the forums.
If you want to gain respect, ask your members how they want it... they will love you for the fact that you let their oppinon count also in the community.

If I would be site admin, I would start with a series of polls about the site features and structure.
I will let my users decide what is best for them. I don't want to be a Hitler and say: Hey, that's the way it goes, you don't like it I can fix you a nice ban so you don't have to worry about posting.

One more time, my intentions with this thread were the following:
1. Emphasize that without hackers, the community will die, with all the good design and intentions the Staff have.
2. Create a reminder of how things were in the past and why we should adapt/bring back the old and oiled rules (that worked well) to the new community.
3. Trigger a signal alarm to Staff about the direction the site is going.
4. Get feedback from actual users what they really want.

So go ahead and post your thoughts, I guarantee you the the Staff is watching this thread closely. :)
If you do not post, nobody will know that you exist and your person counts, newbie or hacker.

When Teck is talking about going back to the old days (correct me if I'm wrong) I don't think he's saying to roll the board back to be like vb version X and to get the same staff, etc. I think he means to make it feel like the old days.
You are correct. :)

Marco van Herwaarden
13 Jun 2006, 09:57
All posters in this thread, please note the policy change that was announced yesterday and is in immediate effect: Site Feedback Changes (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=118404)

All Off Topic posts made from this point on will be handled according to the Policy!

tehste
13 Jun 2006, 12:10
Thanks for that reminder Marco, even if it is a little off topic, I'm sure alot of us missed that thread and need to be alerted to it.

One of the other main reasons that dot org aint what it was is something that I didn't really articulate. It is the holyer than thou attitude that runs through a number of the staff.

akanevsky
13 Jun 2006, 12:19
Stop living in the past ...
The internet is evolving.
vBulletin is evolving. eg. it's a lot easier to add new features
The way people surf the net is evolving.
There are more programmers and/or newbies.
There are more vbulletin resources.Most sites "fall apart" because they do not change. If you cannot keep up with the "evolution" than you might as well give up.

The problem with vb.org is that it really hasn't changed.
Yea, some minor things but nothing concrete.
NOTE: I'm one that's been on this board since the start of vbulletin 2.

So, each time somone says, "back in the old days" ... I cringe.
I mean ... what is that suppose to mean?

I'll bet 5 years from now ... people will be referring to today as "back in the old days". :D

Signed under every word.

The Geek
13 Jun 2006, 12:37
*** Edited: No personal attacks on members please ***
I was making fun of myself! Am I not even allowed to call myself names here? ;)

Marco was spot on with the fact that the member base changing has had a radical impact on modification releases.

The new plug in system and methodology of coding for easy installing, installing and upgrading has opened the site up to be far more accessible for far more people that were previously scared crap less by the previous style of 'find and replace before/after' hacking.

This is obviously a plus for Jelsoft, but a potential burden for modification authors. Overall, I would say that it is more time consuming designing and executing a large scale modification now then it was before the plug in system. Couple that extra time and work with the additional support as more and more users that don't even have to know what a line of the code means and you can easily get overwhelmed and disenchanted.

Many modifications today are no longer 1 line template changes or even 5 find and replace instructions, but rather very long, complex projects that take a substantial amount of time to create and maintain.

You must stop expecting people to spend all of that time for free. Some people simply do not have it in abundance. Don't get me wrong, most would love to, but personally I would rather purchase a modification that had a reasonable price tag and the right functionality and support rather than not be able to purchase anything because what I was after did not exist!

Whether vb.org is the place for a commercial directory or not is not why I bring this up (however my opinion is that this is the best place) the reason I mention it is because I get a bit irritated seeing people that request time for their money being tarred.

Authors should pay Jelsoft for creating add ons for vBulletin? Ridiculous! I charge for some of my work because of the time and effort I put in creating, maintaining and supporting it. Did I learn everything I know about coding from vB? Hell no, I've been coding for 20 years as a hobby. Has coding for vB helped my php understanding? Crap loads (didn't really do much php before I started tweaking my own board) however thats like saying Adobe should pay Apple and Windows for creating Photoshop as they are invariably using parts of the operating system. Instead, products like Photoshop are a bonus for operating systems. 3rd party products encourage people to buy computer systems. For a designer a Mac is pretty useless without the software to run it on. Heck, to many, programs like Photoshop are far more useless without the amount of 3rd party plug ins available for it. Software houses champion 3rd party developers because they enrich the software for their customers.

Saying to someone they owe 25 hours a week to vBulletin because without vBulletin their modification wouldn't exist is silly. Without the 25 hours per week - the modification wouldn't exist. Without the time the coder has put into developing and supporting their product, it wouldn't exist. Or... perhaps it would only exist for a competing product.

And in closing...

This site can not go back to the 'good ole days' because your member base is primarily users that come here to get the end result (not be part of it). The good ole days is what made that happen. What needs to happen now is to evolve the site for all stake holders. The mods and admins need the space to try to make that happen.

nJoy

Benj
13 Jun 2006, 14:22
i think youve hit the problem on the head with that comment

primarily users that come here to get the end result (not be part of it)

tgreer
13 Jun 2006, 14:47
Define the "end result"? Again, I think that's one-dimensional thinking. If you believe the site's sole purpose is to distribute free hacks, that a plugin you can download is the "end result", then you'll always have three groups: the users, the coders, and people who are neither and leave here disappointed.

If you want to code a plugin to share, nothing here stops you from that.

If you want to download a plugin to use on your site, nothing here stops you from that.

If you want to learn vBulletin, engage in coding discussions with other programmers, to learn to develop your own plugins or just to become more familiar with the software running your site... there is a definitely a barrier to that. Two barriers: that discussion is private/hidden, and threads here aren't managed professionally.

The latter is being addressed. It certainly appears the staff is trying to put policies into place to make the threads more civil and productive. I haven't seen any staff-hijacked threads lately. While there may be growing pains and missteps, I applaud the effort and will patiently give it a chance. The former issue, the hidden Coders Discussion, still needs to be rectified.

d8tabyte
13 Jun 2006, 15:16
I came here as someone with limited coding experience - through installing hacks and reading the posts, I can now navigate the code dang near blind folded. And while I would be hard pressed to code something from scratch - I can modify confidently and understand what is wrong when something happens - That is what VB.org and its coders have given me. Beyond all the enhancements, beyond all the toys - through your experiences you have made me a better admin.

Thats what everyone needs to remember. Sharing these hacks is important to the development of the Vbulletin community. While you will always have the leeches, you also develop a solid core group of users who will always come back and who will support you in any way they can. Some donate, some help in the bug testing that is so important to making quality hacks and some help by adding on to your hacks - which in the end is better for everyone.

I agree that there needs to be better moderation - either develop it so the coders can moderate thier own threads, and have a site moderator monitor them, or continue down the line they are walking now and just let the chips fall as they may.

TECK
13 Jun 2006, 17:06
You must stop expecting people to spend all of that time for free. Some people simply do not have it in abundance. Don't get me wrong, most would love to, but personally I would rather purchase a modification that had a reasonable price tag and the right functionality and support rather than not be able to purchase anything because what I was after did not exist!
Sure, there is nothing wrong to create paying hacks.
Personally, I would not allow them to be advertised at vB.org anywhere, like in the past.
Google is pretty good on catching your pages, so if you do a search for "vBulletin hacks" you should be able to get results.

This site can not go back to the 'good ole days' because your member base is primarily users that come here to get the end result (not be part of it). The good ole days is what made that happen. What needs to happen now is to evolve the site for all stake holders. The mods and admins need the space to try to make that happen.
We are talking about principles that worked in the past and got abandoned (for some obscure reasons) to be resurfaced and adapted to the new users.

You tell us what it needs to happen is to evolve the site.
But you don't tell us what exacly you want to see it happen for vB.org to be a better place for you.
Me to I can say: Hey, I don't like the site... but don't ask me why because I can't tell you.
This is not constructive at all for anyone.

Primarily users that come here to get the end result (not be part of it)
This is a really really really bad optique. Then, I'm not surprised why all good guys resigned recently and all hackers left.
We have paying/non-paying plugins available to sites... I like it simple, no time for my brain to warm it...
Soon, all of you who like the "simple things" will have to pull out all the time your credit cards and pay for the hacks... because they will the only ones who will exist.
You guys push it into this direction, can't you see it?

All the above remarks are ment with respect, no harsh intended to you, TheGeek.

The Geek
13 Jun 2006, 17:42
No harshness taken Teck.

Just out of curiosity, I did the google search you mentioned.
I suck. Out of 400 results, my site doesn't appear at all. vBSEO appears around after about 70 links (same with photopost). My point being that it isn't as easy as you think to find 3rd party modifications. Regardless, an interesting vote already took place regarding the issue of a commercial directory and if I recall correctly, more wanted it than not.

Regardless...

You ask what I want?


To win the EuroMillions
To see a directory listing with support, functionality and value ratings.
To lose about 76 of the 82 forums here
To see a professional modification database complete with bug tracker and FAQ/README wikki.
To see people cease demands on people giving their time freely
To see 3rd party developers treated more like partners and less like rusty sheriff badges.


I would be happy to forgo all the others if I could at least make off with the first one.

I don't want to see it like the Golden Days because for that to happen you would have to ditch 80% of the members here to move the ratio back to what it was. Since I have as much chance of getting my first wish as I do of ditching 80% of the members here, why go on about it? Move onward and upward.

This site has 2 core demographics: Those that code (or want to code) and those that want to find some free functionality.

The more people code and release stuff here, the more useful the site becomes for users thereby increasing their number out of proportion to the coders. In the future, this will not change, it will become even more out of balance as the users will grow exponentially.

Coders forum

Having a forum for coders is a perk. It's silly and its small, but I guess it's nice. I could care less if it was public or private, however I am going to take a guess that 90% of the members of this site would rather not get their 'new posts' diluted with datamanager discussions because they couldn't give a rats toot about it or coding in general. Therefore look at it as a community service for the masses that it's hidden. If you want in so badly, contribute to the community and release a dancing banana modification. I don't know why the forum is of help to anyone that has never released a modification.

MJM
13 Jun 2006, 17:45
One thing I'd like to address before bowing out of this conversation.
I remember the good ole days, in the early 90's, hearing about the coming information super highway. At that time you were charged by the hour for time spent on the net.
However for various reasons I didn't get a computer till 2000, when it became more affordable. I also got my first digital camera, and as my site/interests are highly image dependent I was at last able to do what I wanted to do on the net.
Instead of creating my 'own' website, I started an interactive community, first at yahoo - that sucked, so I searched extensively for a software application. Knowing nothing about computers, I by-passed all the free scripts and went for a commercial product, choosing vB. Because vB provided no gallery app. I chose PhotoPost because it was 'integrated' with vB.

I presumed that because I paid for commercial products, with annual fees for upgrades, who had staff working diligently to develop the most advanced products on the market, that we would be moving rapidly forward in the development of these applications.
Well, it turns out that development has been rather slow (in my view), and developers have instead relied on it's customer base to develop many of the features and functionalities.

Oh well, fair enough, I cannot afford to have an expert customize my site, so I have learned to be patient and accept gradual progress, and focus on the more important issue of developing actual content for my site.
Content is, after all is said and done, the primary reason for what this is all about.

So why am I here writing this lengthy (apologies) post when I should be addressing issues at my own site?

(Please don't take this as a 'blanket' statement)

Time after time I see a disconnection between what developers are coming up with and it's limited practical application.

It is for this reason that I feel it's important that non-coding dummies like me who are using these applications on a daily basis and know what works well and doesn't for admins, mods and ultimately the end user, are a crucial element in the development of features and functionalities.

I could provide many examples, but here is a recent example with a new function for vB 3.6 that was not hashed thoroughly with it's members prior to release of which I can only hope that brillant minds here at vB.org will be able to improve:
Automatically Remove Thread Redirects (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1143816&postcount=139)

There are other instances when developers come up with a great feature, but doesn't work correctly if you are using another feature.
I don't want to sound too harsh and call it lazy coding, but this is often the result of a developer looking for the easiest way to provide this functionality with out pre-beta testing it with it's customers to ensure that it will work as intended.
I can only guess that the reason why development is so often done behind closed doors is because competitiveness leads to secretiveness.

I guess this is the price I must pay for choosing a commercial product.

tgreer
13 Jun 2006, 18:08
Coders forum

Having a forum for coders is a perk. It's silly and its small, but I guess it's nice. I could care less if it was public or private, however I am going to take a guess that 90% of the members of this site would rather not get their 'new posts' diluted with datamanager discussions because they couldn't give a rats toot about it or coding in general. Therefore look at it as a community service for the masses that it's hidden. If you want in so badly, contribute to the community and release a dancing banana modification. I don't know why the forum is of help to anyone that has never released a modification.

Why leave the 10% out in the cold, when there's no compelling reason for it? Who decided, and when, that the only way to "contribute to the community" is to release a plugin? (In fact, I have, and can see the Coders Discussion, but I don't see a single thread there that needs to be private. In fact, some of the public threads, for example about 3.6 changes, have their answers in the private forum - unnecessary duplicate content.)

Many people code plugins for themselves, for their own sites. Coding Discussions benefit them, and benefit anyone else who participates in those discussions. Keeping such discussions hidden and private diminishes the overall value of the site, breeds contempt for those who don't release plugins, fosters an elitist attitude, and segregates the community.

If you, personally, don't feel you want to help someone who doesn't post plugins, that's your prerogative. However, the official stance by the site owner, Jelsoft, is that this site is the "vBulletin Customization" site. That includes coding discussions, and the site organization, with the primary coding discussions locked away, is at cross-purposes to that policy.

The equations that coders=public plugin developers and that value to the community = releasing a public hack are profoundly flawed.

As a case in point, Geek: I use GARS Lite. I've posted a bit on your forum, giving you good feedback on CMPS integration. I even found and corrected some bugs in GARS Lite, which I told you about. I consider that as contributing to the overall good of the community. But I guess if I don't post my own plugins here, then I'm a nobody, of no value to the community? Value to the community, contributing positively, helping other coders, is not incumbent upon posting a plugin.

The Geek
13 Jun 2006, 18:26
The other 10% was a generous value of those that do contribute to the community by releasing code. Hell, if you're that offended just copy the discussions they have in there and post them in the lounge. Or you could start up www.whatsreallygoingoninthecoderslounge.com That will start a revolution!

Hey, you know what this calls for?

Thats right! A poll! Nothing better than an administrative decision made via popular clicking.

Title: Who demands the coders forum be freed?
option 1: Damnit! I do AND HOW.
option 2: Er, I could care less.
option 3: Only when you pull it from my cold dead fingers.

cheesegrits
13 Jun 2006, 18:26
The equations that coders=public plugin developers and that value to the community = releasing a public hack are profoundly flawed.

Then of course there are folk like me, who are in the process of learning vB. I've written several useful mods for my site, and am in the process of writing three more. I could just throw something out there so I can get the keys to the Magic Kingdom, but I'd much rather take my time and make sure my code is up to par, and as upgrade-proof as I can make it, before putting something out for public consumption.

I would love to be able to participate (or at least lurk and search) in the Coders forum, to help me improve my vB specific coding chops before I release anything. But if the only way in is to release something ... well, can you say Catch 22?

BTW, I had no idea till I read the last few posts that there even was a super secret, cone of silence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cone_of_Silence) protected, Coders Discussion forum! How exactly does one get the necessary secret decoder ring? Send in five vBulletin mod box tops and sum up in 12 words or less why I want to be a vB coder?

-- hugh

tgreer
13 Jun 2006, 18:36
... if you're that offended just copy the discussions they have in there and post them in the lounge. Or you could start up www.whatsreallygoingoninthecoderslounge.com That will start a revolution!

I'd rather have the site administration recognize that a private coding discussion is in direct conflict with the official purpose of the site, and rectify the situation.

A poll is useless; this isn't a "majority wins" issue. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Now, I can admit that maybe I'm wrong, but none of the reasons I've seen put forth in defense of a private forum hold any water so far. I'm listening, though. Convince me.

Arguments I've already seen:

Reason: We need a private forum because members bug us in public with useless posts.
Rebuttal: Moderate.

Reason: We need a private forum because sometimes we discuss security issues with our hacks.
Rebuttal: Your users deserve to hear about these security issues and how you plan to address them.

Reason: We need a private forum because the public ones aren't any good.
Rebuttal: Circular argument.

Reason: We need a private forum because we are the reason the site exists and are the ones contributing.
Rebuttal: One-dimensional, elitist thinking. The site exists for more than just hack-distrubution, and releasing hacks isn't the only valid way to contribute.

Reason: Most people don't want to see these discussions.
Rebuttal: Don't read them.

Reason: We want one because we want one, don't have to give a good reason, and if it's made public we're leaving, and taking our hacks with us.
Rebuttal: Good-bye.

Reason: It's a perk for hackers.
Rebuttal: At the expense of the rest of the community; grow-up.

The Geek
13 Jun 2006, 18:44
I'm not here to convince you. I was here to add my 2 cents on 'making .org like it use to be'.

The Coders Forum was created to thank the contributors of the site. There is nothing stopping posts from being made in programming discussions or one of the other handful of forums for those that want to discuss programming.

Maybe change the name to 'contributers forum' or hell, make it a public joinable group automatically joined when someone releases a modification (or for those that dont want to release anything). In the end, ranting and raving about a forum for contributors not available to non contributers doesn't really seem to hold much H2O.

tehste
13 Jun 2006, 19:39
Well it's been fun :)
...and that's my cue to exit!

Marco van Herwaarden
13 Jun 2006, 20:10
This site can not go back to the 'good ole days' because your member base is primarily users that come here to get the end result (not be part of it). The good ole days is what made that happen. What needs to happen now is to evolve the site for all stake holders. The mods and admins need the space to try to make that happen.
Nice synopsys of what i was trying to say. :D

TECK
13 Jun 2006, 20:21
Nice synopsys of what i was trying to say. :D
Marco, please read post #76 and let us all know what vB.org will do (related to the third issue especially) about it.
I'm very curious what it was drawn so far on the table. Can you post some updates in the Announcements forum?

Will vB.org let us know their plan before the decissions are fully made, so we can express our oppinions?

Thanks.

Marco van Herwaarden
13 Jun 2006, 20:23
It certainly appears the staff is trying to put policies into place to make the threads more civil and productive. I haven't seen any staff-hijacked threads lately. While there may be growing pains and missteps, I applaud the effort and will patiently give it a chance. The former issue, the hidden Coders Discussion, still needs to be rectified.Yes Staff is actively trying to improve things. About hte moderation style, we came from a semi-unmoderated style, the site was ran like a community of friends, and that worked for a very long time.

Like with many growing "organisations" the policies and moderation style stayed the same for a very long time while the community was growing and changing.

One day you wake up and find all is a huge mess, your friendly undermoderating style don't work anymore, so suddenly you must change. I know for sure that we will have many many more discussions before we will have things running smooth again, but for the time being one of the changes must be to take back control of what happens and how. We will probably get complaints from (older?) members who feel that we will be taking away their "freedom of speech", but i am confident that this will be only temporary until everyone is used to the change in climate.

Bottom line is that no matter what direction we will go in the end, the process of changing will always be causing some pain, but you just have to take that pain if you're confident that it will lead to something better in the end.



PS: Lol what was it that i wanted to say?

Marco van Herwaarden
13 Jun 2006, 20:26
Marco, please read post #76 and let us all know what vB.org will do (related to the third issue especially) about it.
I'm very curious what it was drawn so far on the table. Can you post some updates in the Announcements forum?

This is a really really really bad optique. Then, I'm not surprised why all good guys resigned recently and all hackers left.
We have paying/non-paying plugins available to sites... I like it simple, no time for my brain to warm it...
Soon, all of you who like the "simple things" will have to pull out all the time your credit cards and pay for the hacks... because they will the only ones who will exist.
You guys push it into this direction, can't you see it?

All the above remarks are ment with respect, no harsh intended to you, TheGeek.This being the third topic in post #76?

TECK
13 Jun 2006, 20:27
Bottom line is that no matter what direction we will go in the end, the process of changing will always be causing some pain, but you just have to take that pain if you're confident that it will lead to something better in the end.
I strongly recommend to make the users be aware what exact changes will be made and ask their oppinion about those changes.
In this way, you will avoid "some pain". :)

This being the third topic in post #76?
Ya. :)
Thanks Marco.

Marco van Herwaarden
13 Jun 2006, 20:39
I strongly recommend to make the users be aware what exact changes will be made and ask their oppinion about those changes.
In this way, you will avoid "some pain". :)
If the "pain" is caused by a policy change, then this will ofcourse be announced to all members. An example is the stronger guidelines on how to use the Feedback forum. The "pain" in this case is that we will no longer allow off-topic posts.

About your question on the status of a Commercial directory, i can give you the following unofficial status-reoprt:
- Based on the input that was given over a longer period of time and after a Staff and Jelsoft discussion we have now gotten the green light to implement such a directory. So there will definatly come a place to post/advertise commercial offerings.
- It will be a loose integration with vBulletin.org. This meaning that we will not be mixing free and commercial postings or offerings. It will become a totally seperate area. How this exactly will be implemented is not decided yet. It could be a page with a link in our menu, or maybe it will become an independent site linked from here.

What is still unclear:
- How we will technically implement it. We have a slight prefernce for writing our own custom page, but it is still also possible that we would use a third party product. There are a lot of projects active at the same time now. Implementing a Paid Directory has priority, but we are trying to gain some fast improvements with smaller projects or projects that would benefit i bigger group of members first.
- The criteria to request to be listed are also not decided on yet.

Conclusion: Yes it will come, it has a high priority but not highest.

Once we get closer into deciding more of the details and implementing it, there will be made an announcement by administration.

KW802
13 Jun 2006, 20:46
MarchoH64,

Did you mean to say "... have now gotten the green light..." instead? :cross-eyed:

Marco van Herwaarden
13 Jun 2006, 21:19
MarchoH64,

Did you mean to say "... have now gotten the green light..." instead? :cross-eyed:Thanks, changed.

TECK
13 Jun 2006, 21:20
Marco, what about this discussion segment?
Primarily users that come here to get the end result (not be part of it)
This is a really really really bad optique. Then, I'm not surprised why all good guys resigned recently and all hackers left.
We have paying/non-paying plugins available to sites... I like it simple, no time for my brain to warm it...
Soon, all of you who like the "simple things" will have to pull out all the time your credit cards and pay for the hacks... because they will the only ones who will exist.
You guys push it into this direction, can't you see it?
This is a really important matter, IMO.

I would like to see some comments related to this thread, comming from the rest of Staff also, not only you.
Are you the only person responsible at vB.org, in charge of official/unofficial answers? Where is the rest of vB.org Team?
I see many times mods and admins reading this thread but nobody says a word... Why you don't want to participate in this discussion?
Let's interact, it's for our own good.

Please avoid vague answers, instead tell us what you would like to look vB.org, viewed from your position also.
Being Mod or Admin is not an easy job. This will help the users understand better what you go through right now.

I want to know what you guys like to see changed on the site and how you think is best to do it. :)
Thank you.

Marco van Herwaarden
13 Jun 2006, 21:33
Marco, what about this discussion segment?

This is a really important matter, IMO.

I would like to see some comments related to this thread, comming from the rest of Staff also, not only you.
Are you the only person responsible at vB.org, in charge of official/unofficial answers? Where is the rest of vB.org Team?
I see many times mods and admins reading this thread but nobody says a word... Why you don't want to participate in this discussion?
Let's interact, it's for our own good.

Please avoid vague answers, instead tell us what you would like to look vB.org, viewed from your position also.
Being Mod or Admin is not an easy job. This will help the users understand better what you go through right now.

I want to know what you guys like to see changed on the site and how you think is best to do it. :)
Thank you.Ok you asked for it, now you are going to feel the "pain".

We recently had discussions where members of Staff gave their personal opinions. Often these personal opinions where not recognized as such ;), and taken for official Staff points of view or decission. This didn't help in the discussions, and only fed the "us against them" syndrom some people seem to be suffering from.

In threads made in the Feedback Forum, you will now see less Staff members expressing their personal opinions. The Customer Team is primarly responsible for the Feedback Forum. You will often only members of this team responding. If it is a simple question to which their a is a simple solution, then you might find other staff members also respond.

If a topic is not totally clear it will be discussed by Staff first and an official asnwer or point of view will be given.

This will often be done by either the Customer Group Admin (Danny) or one of the 2 Teamleaders in this team (Amykhar or me).

In many discussions staff will let the members discuss, and then will take a stand based on the member input and the opinions of the staff. If there are considerations that are not brought up in the public discussion, then a member of the Customer Team will often join in on the thread to feed the discussion with these considerations.

This might be too vague for you, but it is the best answer i can give right now.

TECK
13 Jun 2006, 22:14
Marco, probably I'm tired... I coded ASP all day at work, ya ASP. :)
But I don't see anything, related to my quote, in your answer?

I take as conclusion that you don't have an "official answer"?
I don't care about official answers, I want to hear you, a person, not Staff, what you would like to see changed at vB.org and I would like to see other mods and admins interacting with you in the discussion.

We are humans, not robots... and we can make mistakes if we say something wrong. Hey, I might said some bad things in this thread, but I'm glad to see that people saw only my good intentions and interacted with me.
I'm sure that nobody will judge anyone here, so far in this thread reings understanding and listening, as well the drive to change things towards better.

MJM
13 Jun 2006, 22:52
Hi Teck, much appreciate you beginning this discussion.
I think your answer is in the previous post :)
.......

I'm very happy to read what has been summed up in this thread and think this is a good day for vB.org.
The moderation rules are great. As a busy admin I just don't have time to get involved in off topic conversation in a thread not designated for this.

- very happy that staff will address their decisions in the way Marco has explained.

- very interested in the development of a paid directory as I will be needing to provide something similar to contributing members at our site and can learn much from how it will be implemented here.

.. and I appreciate that members like myself who have little to offer but ideas based on practical needs can be part of of the development of new mods for vB.

Finally, a suggestion:

Provide a page/link from our vB adminCP crediting all the wonderful people who have conceptualized the the free mods that are now becoming a standard feature in vB.
They much deserve this recognition, and this would make it easier for us to see what else they have up their sleeves.

Keep up the great work everybody!

Cheers,
Mark

TECK
13 Jun 2006, 23:01
Thanks Mark, I will read again the thread when I get home...
I'm tired, my head is spinning a little. Working on a large project for weeks, on the Intranet network.

EasyTarget
14 Jun 2006, 16:26
Now, I can admit that maybe I'm wrong, but none of the reasons I've seen put forth in defense of a private forum hold any water so far. I'm listening, though. Convince me.

Arguments I've already seen:

Rebuttal: Circular argument.

Rebuttal: One-dimensional, elitist thinking. The site exists for more than just hack-distrubution, and releasing hacks isn't the only valid way to contribute.

Rebuttal: Don't read them.

Rebuttal: Good-bye.

Rebuttal: At the expense of the rest of the community; grow-up.
With rebuttals like that its obvious you don't want to be convinced, as you suggest. Only your first two rebuttals were even valid. Why don't you just leave it at you would like the coders forum to be open instead of turning everyone's thread into your personal anti-coders forum soapbox. One post about it was enough, or do you figure the constant annoyance by one person will make up for the lack of support/interest by others?

Now, do you have any other suggestions for the site/thread?

tgreer
14 Jun 2006, 16:45
Oh, I admit, it would be difficult to convince me. I think all my rebuttals are valid: while I can be convinced, I won't be by, well, unconvincing arguments. If you don't agree with my rebuttals, that's fine... I'm open to counter-arguments: let's hear them. If you're going to quote my posts (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showpost.php?p=1006540&postcount=82), please don't edit them. Otherwise you're just MIS-quoting my posts.

While I'm the most vocal about this issue, at least in public, I'm certainly not the only one who feels the coders discussion should not be private (or even have been created in the first place). Your assumption that there is lack of support/interest is completely unfounded. Review the initial announcement thread, the thread announcing it was made private, the thread on vbulletin.com, and even this thread.

But I agree with you this far: enough has been said, on both sides of the issue, for the administration to make a decision.

Other suggestions? You bet!

Here's one:

Consolidate the programming discussions. People are very confused about "General Modification Discussion" vs. "Custom Requests" vs. "vBulletin Programming" vs. "vBulletin Discussions" vs. "Programming Discussions", and yes, to top it off "Coders Discussions". With proper moderation, that could all be one forum. There are even modification questions ending up in the Lounge, likely because it isn't clear in which of the half-dozen mod forums it really belongs.

Another:

Create a "beta" release modification section, for plug-in authors who'd like other programmers to review their code, but who don't want it released to the general public. This wouldn't be closed/private, but would have ample disclaimers/warnings, just like any beta software. No one would be expected to ask for or give any support, no "Installs", no nominations for HotM, just programming feedback.

Borgs8472
14 Jun 2006, 17:25
TECK, I've only ever done any programming that's had practical use for my vbulletin sites. I'm a little hurt by your suggestion that vb.org shouldn't be a place to learn HTML.

Vbulletin and message boards are complex products drawing on people managers, moderators, skinners, people to do minor tweaks (like in the HTML), people to do major hacks and plugins, and people who make major additions.

Again, refering to the site's motto, the ultimate vbulletin resource, I like the fact that this site has everything I could ever want (except some paid mods which I barely hear about ;) )

Frankly, if you want some purity of coding and development standards, I suggest you find one of the many coding forums that exists and ply your art there. In the mean time I like a shallow knowledge of php, sql, cpanel, admining, moderating, html, developing, piloting, bbcodes and the whole package that comes with being a vbulletin admin. Not being a dedicated programmer with a cause like it seems to me you are.

TECK
15 Jun 2006, 04:33
TECK, I've only ever done any programming that's had practical use for my vbulletin sites. I'm a little hurt by your suggestion that vb.org shouldn't be a place to learn HTML.
What I ment was putting focus on the actual hacks, not to learn how to make a HTML table, for example.
Sorry for misunderstanding. I thought the words "flower design" will reflect that.
One detail:

https://www.vbulletin.org/forum/

This was designed in the golden time by a guy called nakkid.
Do you know him? He was involved in HTML and graphic design at vB.org site, not only in hacks.
He put a lot of heart to the vB.org users, just to make this place a better one, asking nothing in exchange.

EDIT: Someone deleted a part of this post... it was important, not considered off topic.

G0F0RBR0KE
15 Jun 2006, 05:52
Hacks, Coders? Aren't they the same?

Some people love to be called Hacks or Coders!

When you make a hack, ur consider a coder. Even if you don't like to be called a "coder" or a "hacker."

I say it should stay like this.

TECK
15 Jun 2006, 06:53
Why the mods deleted a part of post above? Related to the thread advertising posted by another user?
Ahh, I guess the offtopic rule is enforced. :)

However, it should it stay, because it was highlighting an important point, related to advertising commercial hacks all over this board.
Please do not delete those posts that have a tangence with vB.org rules. Thank you.

MJM
15 Jun 2006, 07:07
What's that intergalactic theme? ..
... to go places where we have never been before

May be it's time to close this chapter and move on to the future.

Honestly don't you think that everything that's been said here has been said before?

Marco van Herwaarden
15 Jun 2006, 13:58
EDIT: Someone deleted a part of this post... it was important, not considered off topic.Since you editted the same post after that, i can not see who or why edited your post anymore, not do i know what was removed.

I suggest that if you still remember the name of the Staff Member who edited it, you PM him/her to ask for an explanation (that is if you where not sent a PM).

Chris M
15 Jun 2006, 23:19
The HTML Discussions within this thread have been moved to a new thread, here: http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=118710

Please try and keep on-topic :)

Chris

ubblite
16 Jun 2006, 09:26
Basic Rules:
1. No paying hacks allowed. If you want to make money, you are not welcome to advertise your products at vB.org site, in links, any way or shape of promotion schemes.
I just posted something similar in another thread, but you are very correct on this. Once paying for hacks becomes the norm, some people will sway from vBulletin because that was one of the reasons they chose VB in the first place, which is for additional code at no cost. I'd have to think the heads over at vBulletin realize this as potential income loss for VB, and are keeping a very close eye on the situation over here.


2. No bashing or making fun of the new guys. Warnings and bans for those smart guys.
Yeah, I see this from certain people - I mean, if you are just starting to install code and ask a question for the first time and get a rude response, it sure won't help get very many people off to a good start here which can lead to the degradation of vb.org.


4. Help anyone, not only yourself. Do not be lazy to post, if you know the answer... someone will thank you and help you with other things... like for example promoting your website?
Great tip - this will definitely help the community here.

Revan
16 Jun 2006, 10:56
I just posted something similar in another thread, but you are very correct on this. Once paying for hacks becomes the norm, some people will sway from vBulletin because that was one of the reasons they chose VB in the first place, which is for additional code at no cost. I'd have to think the heads over at vBulletin realize this as potential income loss for VB, and are keeping a very close eye on the situation over here.That's a complete and utter load. People still pay for vBSEO don't they?
It is foolish to think that the moment someone will have to pay to advertise their paid hack here, everybody will turn their little 1 liner hack into a paid hack for which the "rent" is larger than the cost of the hack.

"No paid hack discussion" is a thing of the past which will have to end if vBulletin.org is to re-claim the title as the ultimate vBulletin resource, which at the moment it is not.
You didn't see paid hack discussions back in "ye goode olde dayse" because people didn't know they *could* charge for vB hacks.
It's quite moronic to think that the vBulletin coding community is exactly the same as back 5 years ago.

Stop being so narrow minded, please.

sabret00the
16 Jun 2006, 19:07
All this talk about the good old days. honestly when i think of the good old days, the only person i can think of who tried to uphold those values was Boofo. The good old days are gone, dead. there is nothing here no more, except for mods and extensions. renamed in order to appeal to a wider market who weren't comfortable with the fact that modifying your source code for the benefit of your community voids your right to moan to jelsoft.

the good old days? oh how it's so easy to moan and want to relive an era long lost? how are you going to get back to the good old days with half a moderating team that doesn't deserve to be there?

coders talk about feeling appreciated and it's a farce, you either do what you do because you enjoy it or you do it for the reward it's that simple. knowing that someone clicked installed isn't going to fix anything bar inflate your ego, knowing someone appreciated using something you made and shared isn't the same as clicking a button.

and all of paid hacks are evil crap is crap, long before any of us hacked vBulletin we paid for it, ok some folks warez'd it first but you get my drift, whether you want to say they shouldn't be available on here or not is another issue but paid hacks are far from evil.

the funny thing is, to the best of my knowledge if my license ran out tomorrow despite my however many hundred installs i wouldn't be able to download hacks or get support here any more, now that's real gratitude for you.

the thing is you all need to wake up, you got a mix of teenagers from a get everything now culture which is being incubated by the ease of plugins and then you have the corperates who act like they're paying for your work. this place as a community is dead get used to it.

whether people like it or not this is a PHP community and yet PHP has zero focus on the outside, what community is there for PHP discussions? and coding help? it doesn't exist. you can't have a community without the community spirit. you post a dilemma here, at sitepoint and on lj's php comm's at the same time and i promise you, you'll realise just how much of a community spirit there is here? it's like people are like don't bump your threads too regularly, well guess what if it was else where you wouldn't have a chance too because community spirit exists.

This isn't any sort of vBulletin resource, it's a smash and grab 5000 greedy admins come on here every day without reading instructions just wanting, wanting, wanting, no one wants to give back. of course there are exceptions i've seen amy and christian in a couple threads for mods. the bottom line is no one here helps unless you help them.

there is no striving for excellence no more, no encouragement, no appreciation of the code, no appreciation of the concepts, everyone just want, and when they don't get they throw tantrums.

The worst thing that could've ever happend to this place was for Jelsoft to take control because Jelsoft see it as a good given right of an addon to there flagship product and thus the onus on who to please is the end user and the bottom line is, this place should have remained like taboo.

This is supposed to be about coders and the code and perhaps the most signifcant conversation i've seen on the code was actually on sitepoint. yeah times change and that's good and dandy but this?...

amykhar
16 Jun 2006, 19:09
if my license ran out tomorrow despite my however many hundred installs i wouldn't be able to download hacks or get support here any more, now that's real gratitude for you.

Not true unless you have a leased license

sabret00the
16 Jun 2006, 19:11
Not true unless you have a leased license
but the rest of my post is? ;) :p joking.

ok. all yee who read that post, know that the bit amy quoted is untrue.

amykhar
16 Jun 2006, 19:22
I didn't disagree with a lot of what you said. The other parts that I did disagree with, I kept my mouth shut about :D I'm learning to behave. It's not easy, but I'm learning.

I don't have the same vision for this site that Tech does. My vision of what I want this site to be exists here - it's called the coder's forum. As long as that's here, I can tolerate most other things that I may not be thrilled about.

The main thing for me here is that there are people I like to talk to about vbulletin coding here. I also like socializing with my fellow vbulletin admins. That part is still here and never went away.

tgreer
16 Jun 2006, 19:50
The vb.Org Customer Team's Team Leader's vision for the site is a private forum to discuss code with only people she likes?! I'll hold the rest of my comments for the promised "Town Hall" thread, but couldn't resist pointing out the irony and shocking disconnect between your staff role and your "vision". Wasn't there a screening process during staff selection?

Ntfu2
16 Jun 2006, 19:55
The vb.Org Customer Team's Team Leader's vision for the site is a private forum to discuss code with only people she likes?! I'll hold the rest of my comments for the promised "Town Hall" thread, but couldn't resist pointing out the irony and shocking disconnect between your staff role and your "vision". Wasn't there a screening process during staff selection?


Amazing isnt it.
















All that empty space is the drain, and this sentance is Vb.org going down it.

joeychgo
16 Jun 2006, 20:40
The vb.Org Customer Team's Team Leader's vision for the site is a private forum to discuss code with only people she likes?! I'll hold the rest of my comments for the promised "Town Hall" thread, but couldn't resist pointing out the irony and shocking disconnect between your staff role and your "vision". Wasn't there a screening process during staff selection?


I have to say, I agree.

Revan
16 Jun 2006, 21:03
The vb.Org Customer Team's Team Leader's vision for the site is a private forum to discuss code with only people she likes?! I'll hold the rest of my comments for the promised "Town Hall" thread, but couldn't resist pointing out the irony and shocking disconnect between your staff role and your "vision". Wasn't there a screening process during staff selection?That was by far the dumbest comment you've added to your trolling of that issue.
Since when is Amy the one who decides who gets to be in the Coders Discussion forum? It was created to serve as a way for contributors of the site to discuss techniques and further contributions to the community.
And those that cannot access the forum are those that does not contribute to the community. If they have something valid to say in the threads, they have something valid to contribute to the community, at which point they should.

The Geek
16 Jun 2006, 21:47
Nice post Sabre.

smacklan
16 Jun 2006, 21:58
Nice post Sabre.I agree....

noppid
16 Jun 2006, 22:07
I didn't disagree with a lot of what you said. The other parts that I did disagree with, I kept my mouth shut about :D I'm learning to behave. It's not easy, but I'm learning.

I don't have the same vision for this site that Tech does. My vision of what I want this site to be exists here - it's called the coder's forum. As long as that's here, I can tolerate most other things that I may not be thrilled about.

The main thing for me here is that there are people I like to talk to about vbulletin coding here. I also like socializing with my fellow vbulletin admins. That part is still here and never went away.

This embodies the whole clique/club attitude that has been destroying this site for years.

Seems like we need more staff changes to make this the "open" development community it is touted as.

Any existing staff members that share this sentiment should leave too for "personal reasons".

MJM
16 Jun 2006, 22:10
Fact of life ...
The more people learn a trade or skill, and the more professional their career becomes, the more likely it is that they will move on to greener pastures.

vB.org is not an old peoples home for geriatric (and disgruntled) coders.
It's also a place for newbies to cut their teeth and prove their worth through the contributions they make to the site.

sabret00the
16 Jun 2006, 22:55
This embodies the whole clique/club attitude that has been destroying this site for years.

Seems like we need more staff changes to make this the "open" development community it is touted as.

Any existing staff members that share this sentiment should leave too for "personal reasons".
that's like saying all nursery nurses and midwives that don't want kids should resign. god forbid that a coder get appointed to the staff and maintain their position on the fact they come to the site primarily to be a part of the community and want to discuss things that revolve around that community on a fundamental level; *shock horror* it's code!

ubblite
16 Jun 2006, 23:22
That's a complete and utter load. People still pay for vBSEO don't they?
It is foolish to think that the moment someone will have to pay to advertise their paid hack here, everybody will turn their little 1 liner hack into a paid hack for which the "rent" is larger than the cost of the hack.

"No paid hack discussion" is a thing of the past which will have to end if vBulletin.org is to re-claim the title as the ultimate vBulletin resource, which at the moment it is not.
You didn't see paid hack discussions back in "ye goode olde dayse" because people didn't know they *could* charge for vB hacks.
It's quite moronic to think that the vBulletin coding community is exactly the same as back 5 years ago.

Stop being so narrow minded, please.
I'm sorry if you're unable to comprehend my previous post, and this thread is meant for opinions of which I expressed mine and by flaming others because of your ignorance only makes you look bad.

IMO, my post made sense in that when people shop for bulletin board software one of the things potential customers consider is the features the software offers, and vb.org with all the hacks available for VB looks very good to the buyer when comparing vbulletin to other BB software. However, *IF* many hacks start going the paid route, this can all change when considering the purchase of VB and you have to believe that some of the heads at VB realize this. I for one have no problem with people charging for certain hacks - they have every right to get compensated for their work if they choose, but make sure you also understand the negative impact it can have as well.

The Geek
16 Jun 2006, 23:33
Its always attractive when customers of a product can get free stuff off the backs of others, however in reality, coding large scale modifications for vB has gotten to the point where its more difficult and time consuming for people to give all their time and talent for nothing but the benefit of Jelsofts customers wanting free stuff.

Don't get me wrong, most would like to (I would prefer it that way). Just don't confuse people charging for their hard work with greed. Not everyone can give 20+ hours a week for you to have free enhancements just so Jelsofts products can seem more attractive.

Remember, its not like Jelsoft is giving anything (not even a scrap) to add-on coders. They still have to buy their license just like you do. Developing an add on, then supporting it is a VERY time draining and costly exercise.

However it can be a freaking blast if you get onto a winner! (or is that a wiener?!?) :D

Tim Skellett
17 Jun 2006, 00:02
..."No paid hack discussion" is a thing of the past which will have to end if vBulletin.org is to re-claim the title as the ultimate vBulletin resource, which at the moment it is not.
Just interested: what is supposed to be "the ultimate vBulletin resource" at the moment, if it's not vbulletin org?
Seeing as to how vb org is doing very well indeed even at this time.

Ohiosweetheart
17 Jun 2006, 00:15
Tim there are other resources now... vB-FAQ, vbHackers, vBWebmasters, etc. They are not as big or great as .org, in terms of hacks/mods, styles, etc... but they do make it so that .org is not the only place to go to find vB info, hacks, etc.

Tim Skellett
17 Jun 2006, 00:34
Hiya Ohiosweetheart,
I'm aware of those other resources, and in fact I'm already a member of many of them (either under my real name or under my usual cross-board username of Gurdur), and I think many of them are truly great; yet, with all respect to those others, as far as I can see vb org is the best still, so I was interested in what Devan is saying is now the best if it's not supposed to be vb org anymore -- especially since his argument, that vb org needed paid hacks, hinges on that claim.

Ohiosweetheart
17 Jun 2006, 03:10
ok... sorry

noppid
17 Jun 2006, 04:01
that's like saying all nursery nurses and midwives that don't want kids should resign. god forbid that a coder get appointed to the staff and maintain their position on the fact they come to the site primarily to be a part of the community and want to discuss things that revolve around that community on a fundamental level; *shock horror* it's code!

To say and live it for one's self is not the same as enforcing it on others. Nice try though. ;)

Another example came when another thread was answered by a staff member exclaiming, why is this conversation still going on, an admin allready commented!

So is that the do all end all? Only an admin can make a suggestion? I understand the admin was asked to "code". However, it could have been pointed out that the member could use the buddy system to achive similar results.

So I suggested it. Thank goodness the thread was still open and we can explore other ideas that don't impose on the admins.

Use the Force Luke. We can come up with better discussions then case closed silliness I hope.

EDIT: (that is not a wayne luke dig)

amykhar
17 Jun 2006, 05:02
1. Exclaiming is an extreme exageration. See any exclamation marks or shouting in the post? No. It was a gentle suggestion that maybe the subject should be dropped instead of hashing over the same request.
2. I'm a person who's been a member of this site since the day it opened. I am allowed to have my own personal vision of what I would like it to be. I understand that it's not going to be that and why, but I'm still allowed to say what it would be in my ideal world. A place where people who code or who are learning to code discuss coding and socialize. I said nothing about exclusive. Tgreer put words in my mouth. And given that he is the one harping about off-topic posts, his objections to my dream of a coding oriented modification site is a bit ludicrous.

I'm sorry you don't like the fact that I like the coder's forum. But, I'm not going to apologize for liking it or for liking to work with other people who like to code their sites. It has nothing to do with cliques or exclusion. It has everything to do with enjoying a forum devoted to a specific topic. I don't care if the people who are in there can barely read an if loop. What I care about is that they are willing to try to take their vision for their site and implement it themselves. THAT'S what keeps me here. People creating unique sites through their own efforts and ideas. It's a fun thing to be a part of.

TECK
17 Jun 2006, 05:36
... there is no striving for excellence no more, no encouragement, no appreciation of the code, no appreciation of the concepts, everyone just want, and when they don't get they throw tantrums ...
Thank you sabret00the, for this post.
I quoted only a small portion, it must be read (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showpost.php?p=1009056&postcount=109) entirely to see it's essence.

Brad
17 Jun 2006, 07:04
I must say if some people spent less time in the site feedback forum going on about how bad this community is, and more time in the other forums helping users a lot of these problems would work themselves out.

I know you all want to make your points here, but I think you all may be getting a little caught up in these heated threads.

I've been here for years, I was a member in the Chen days as well. I even used a few of TECK's hacks when I ran vBulletin 2 and I always was thankful for them and tried to help other users of his hacks when I had the time.

The staff can not control what members do here at all times, they are not baby sitters. They can write a policy and follow it until they can't stand to stay awake anymore but that is not going to fix the under lying issues of this community.

We, as members, have to step up and set an example for everyone else. We are the ones that must educate the masses, we are the ones that must give a helping hand when someone asks for it. We are the ones that make this community what it is.

TECK
17 Jun 2006, 09:17
We, as members, have to step up and set an example for everyone else...
Well Brad, you stepped down (unfortunatelly, because you are a great guy), instead of stepping up... did you do it because you did not liked also in what direction vB.org is going (like Stefan)?

Revan
17 Jun 2006, 09:17
I'm sorry if you're unable to comprehend my previous post, and this thread is meant for opinions of which I expressed mine and by flaming others because of your ignorance only makes you look bad.Please point out which part of my post was ignorant. Because just stating I am ignorant without providing a valid counter-argument just makes you seem more and more like the person who's afraid of getting his free toys taken away from him when coders realise they don't have to put up with all the crap some users (thereby meaning downloaders) give them in their support threads and for nothing in return.
IMO, my post made sense in that when people shop for bulletin board software one of the things potential customers consider is the features the software offers, and vb.org with all the hacks available for VB looks very good to the buyer when comparing vbulletin to other BB software. However, *IF* many hacks start going the paid route, this can all change when considering the purchase of VB and you have to believe that some of the heads at VB realize this. I for one have no problem with people charging for certain hacks - they have every right to get compensated for their work if they choose, but make sure you also understand the negative impact it can have as well.It only has a negative impact when new purchasers of vBulletin is not aware of the fact that the solution they are looking for exists.
What you are basically saying is that since we paid for Windows, we should get all Windows based software for free. I mean if I want a program that for instance securely erases my files, I should get a $300 software for free since I already paid the same for Windows. Certain software even costs MORE than Windows itself, oh my god this is such negative impact on Windows, we must all swap to Linux before it's too late!
Can you see the stupidity of that statement? It's exactly the same you are saying. Paid software does not have a negative impact as long as users know where it exists.
If vBorg allowed for a directory viewable by guests, they could come in here, search the free forums and then the paid hack directory when they didn't find what they were looking for.
You say you understand why coders want to make money, but you're not condoning it. That kind of hypocricy unnerves me. As Ive said time and time again, this ain't no communist society. Not everything comes for free with demand. Some things are worth paying for. Those that don't want to pay can either make their own version, or they can make do without until they want to pay for it.

The Geek
17 Jun 2006, 09:48
I must say if some people spent less time in the site feedback forum going on about how bad this community is, and more time in the other forums helping users a lot of these problems would work themselves out.

Very fair point and one Im guilty of as of late. Problem is, most of my free time where I can 'help' others is spent helping customers and coding. I really only have time to pop in and see whats happening every now and again. However I do think your point is very valid regardless of my excuse. :)

Brad
17 Jun 2006, 10:12
Well Brad, you stepped down (unfortunatelly, because you are a great guy), instead of stepping up... did you do it because you did not liked also in what direction vB.org is going (like Stefan)?
My reasons are un-realated to this site and the recent going ons here. I simply have issues in my life that need to be taken care of at this time. I will stick around and pop in when I can, just because I am no longer an admin does not mean I will not be in the community trying to help people when I can. :)

tgreer
17 Jun 2006, 14:57
@amykhar: what words did I put in your mouth? My response was directly toward what you said. Also, what was off-topic? In a thread about making this place better, I think it's on-topic to point out your role/staff title is in direct conflict with your ideal vision of the site. I've already promised to reserve any more comments on the Coders Discussion for the town-hall thread, if and when it ever appears . I'm very curious if the issue can get an objective hearing, given your stance.

Code Monkey
17 Jun 2006, 15:55
The issues raised here have nothing to do with vBulletin.org. The changes you see are a reflection of the change in the status of PHP itself. All of these issues effect every single PHP oriented site that exists. Not just this one.

PHP is no longer a grass roots scripting language. It is now mainstream. It once attracted a defined group of tinkerer's and those that like to live on the cutting edge. It now attracts everyone. Deal with it. If you like that close knit feeling that used to exist here, at Sitepoint, or all the other places that are no longer as fun and helpful as they used to be, then you need to move on to the next big thing. Try Python or Ruby on Rails for that coding community feel. Otherwise, get used to the general populous and all that comes with it.

rogersnm
17 Jun 2006, 16:04
Reeve, I know is a delicate matter... But those were the rules on the old times.
A hacker should never charge someone for a hack, especially when it was made using the vBulletin code techniques.
In other words, I look at the vBulletin code, learn from it and then I create a hack that will work with vB, based on the vBulletin functions... then I start charging. Where is the fairness in this?
Hey, the vBulletin should charge me money for using their code property or techniques, right?


i disagree completely. Many coders make free mods on this site and then jelsoft just come a long and pick up any mods they like and stuff it in the next version of vB without the users permission which is breaking the rules of this site. So if we want to realease paid hacks then we should seeing as jelsoft get paid for our work.

Brad
17 Jun 2006, 16:19
i disagree completely. Many coders make free mods on this site and then jelsoft just come a long and pick up any mods they like and stuff it in the next version of vB without the users permission which is breaking the rules of this site. So if we want to realease paid hacks then we should seeing as jelsoft get paid for our work.
I would consider it an honor if one of my modifications made it into the core release. I also know many others share this feeling.

Some of the things you take for granted these days were hacks in the old days, a short list would include:

Avatars
Private messages
Super Moderators
Who's Online
Attachments in file system
Quick Reply
Returning to the last post of the thread after making a reply (we used to redirect the forum)
Who's online in threads
Soft delete aka the recycle bin
Adding more than 5 moderators per forum
Adding more custom profile fields (anyone remember hacking nearly every file to do that in ubb?)
Last thread title in the last post column on index.php

...I could go on and on..

Yes some of these things have been default in vBulletin from the start. But vBulletin grew out of ubb in a way, and in the old ubb days we hacked all of these things in (and a lot more).

The point I'm trying to make is Jelsoft is not ripping off hack authors here. They are adding things that their customers want, like they always did. If Jelsoft would have ignored the hacking community from day one, I doubt many of us would be using it today. They also don't just lift code, they code it themselves and often improve it in some way. :) That in no way breaks a rule on this site. :)

Dean C
17 Jun 2006, 16:24
i disagree completely. Many coders make free mods on this site and then jelsoft just come a long and pick up any mods they like and stuff it in the next version of vB without the users permission which is breaking the rules of this site. So if we want to realease paid hacks then we should seeing as jelsoft get paid for our work.

This is absolute nonsense. Jelsoft doesn't take your code and put it in vBulletin, in fact if they did that they'd be obliged to pay you. This has only ever happened on one occasion.

Marco van Herwaarden
17 Jun 2006, 16:27
i disagree completely. Many coders make free mods on this site and then jelsoft just come a long and pick up any mods they like and stuff it in the next version of vB without the users permission which is breaking the rules of this site. So if we want to realease paid hacks then we should seeing as jelsoft get paid for our work.Let me correct this one.

I don't think Jelsoft would ever use code from a hack here to add new functionality to the standard vBulletin software. They might implement the same idea that was also the basis of a modification on this site, but that will often be triggered by customer requests (and often those same requests are what in the end lead to a released modification).

If you have any proof of what you are acusing Jolsoft of, then please provide it, together with a statement from the origianl author of that block of code that he never gave permission to Jelsoft to use his code.

There might be a few cases in the past where Jelsoft have used code made by others, but i know that those authors have been contacted and credited (you can still find some on the credits page in ACP). This even happened in the few cases where Jelsoft used a bigger and original idea of an author.

sabret00the
17 Jun 2006, 16:53
The issues raised here have nothing to do with vBulletin.org. The changes you see are a reflection of the change in the status of PHP itself. All of these issues effect every single PHP oriented site that exists. Not just this one.

PHP is no longer a grass roots scripting language. It is now mainstream. It once attracted a defined group of tinkerer's and those that like to live on the cutting edge. It now attracts everyone. Deal with it. If you like that close knit feeling that used to exist here, at Sitepoint, or all the other places that are no longer as fun and helpful as they used to be, then you need to move on to the next big thing. Try Python or Ruby on Rails for that coding community feel. Otherwise, get used to the general populous and all that comes with it.
If you want to be part of a coding community you should change language or find a new forum? That's absolute nonsense.

Code Monkey
17 Jun 2006, 17:03
If you want to be part of a coding community you should change language or find a new forum? That's absolute nonsense.

That is not what I said. Your missquote is absolute nonsense.

rogersnm
17 Jun 2006, 17:11
To use an example Livewire's vBSigHosting hack. He did not get contacted.

Brad
17 Jun 2006, 17:13
To use an example Livewire's vBSigHosting hack. He did not get contacted.
Look at the code, they did not take his hack and just place it in the files. The developers coded it in their own way, because it has been requested for ages.

rogersnm
17 Jun 2006, 17:14
http://www.vbhackers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3548&page=3

Code Monkey
17 Jun 2006, 17:17
Way off topic IMO.

rogersnm
17 Jun 2006, 17:28
And your opinion is welcomed.

I would consider it an honor if one of my modifications made it into the core release. I also know many others share this feeling.

Yes, but that doesn't mean everyone.

Brad
17 Jun 2006, 17:29
Way off topic IMO.
How is this off topic? We're are talking about how the old ways are gone and the new ones are here now, this is vaild imho!

Jelsoft is not taking your code and putting it in their software, they are adding things to their product that their customers request. If you see an add-on with over 2000 installs it would be crazy not to say "Hey a lot of people are using it, and we're getting threads about it on vBulletin.com all the time. I think it would be a good idea to add that as it's something our customers would really enjoy".

They then go code it themselves from the ground up, often improving and taking it to the next level. Everyone is happy because that is one less thing they have to add, and we all move on.

Way back in my day it was an honor to have your hack become part of the software. We did not care it we got credit, just knowing our idea was good enough to make it in the software was enough. Heck we did not care if someone released a hack that functions just like ours, as long as they took the time to code it themselves. Hell we would even team up and try to improve and learn from each other, or maybe release it as a joint project.

What happened to taking pride in your work just because it was something you coded yourself?

rogersnm
17 Jun 2006, 17:33
They don't ask you, and they don't pay you. This place is used as there free research center. WHICH IS WRONG

Brad
17 Jun 2006, 17:44
My friend, just because you have an idea does not mean someone did not have it before you.

Should I go pay the man that came up with a fishing rod if I know how to build one myself? Should I even have to ask him if I want to build one? No.

Using this place for research is not wrong, it helps improve the software, bottom line. Half of the default options in your control panel were hacks at one point or another.

rogersnm
17 Jun 2006, 17:47
And that is your opinion. Other people have different one's.

Marco van Herwaarden
17 Jun 2006, 18:18
http://www.vbhackers.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3548&page=3All i see on that page is that someone (LiveWire) is claiming that he didn't get credit. He is not saying that they didn't ask/get permission.

Anyway without someone showing parts of code from which it is obvious that Jelsoft did copy his code, we are still nowhere with this discussion.

PS This thread is about the suggestion to bring vb.org back to what it was before. If you want to discuss copyright laws or if Jelsoft break a law, i suggest you start your own topic at vbulletin.com, or one hee in the lounge. This has nothing to do with how vbulletin.org is functioning or with "bringing back the old times".

noppid
17 Jun 2006, 18:39
1. Exclaiming is an extreme exageration. See any exclamation marks or shouting in the post? No. It was a gentle suggestion that maybe the subject should be dropped instead of hashing over the same request.
2. I'm a person who's been a member of this site since the day it opened. I am allowed to have my own personal vision of what I would like it to be. I understand that it's not going to be that and why, but I'm still allowed to say what it would be in my ideal world. A place where people who code or who are learning to code discuss coding and socialize. I said nothing about exclusive. Tgreer put words in my mouth. And given that he is the one harping about off-topic posts, his objections to my dream of a coding oriented modification site is a bit ludicrous.

I'm sorry you don't like the fact that I like the coder's forum. But, I'm not going to apologize for liking it or for liking to work with other people who like to code their sites. It has nothing to do with cliques or exclusion. It has everything to do with enjoying a forum devoted to a specific topic. I don't care if the people who are in there can barely read an if loop. What I care about is that they are willing to try to take their vision for their site and implement it themselves. THAT'S what keeps me here. People creating unique sites through their own efforts and ideas. It's a fun thing to be a part of.


Gee Amy then I gotta ask again when you say, "I don't care if the people who are in there can barely read an if loop.", why does it need to be private then? You have no objections, in your own words, as to a member's abilities. That is the pinacle of this ongoing debate.

Thank you for putting it in writing that you don't mind anyone else going in there regardless of their abilty.

So with me and you and tgreer and Joeychgo we have a good start for a motion to make the "coders forum" a regular forum.

Great work and thanks for the opportunity to work with you.

Dean C
17 Jun 2006, 18:49
They don't ask you, and they don't pay you. This place is used as there free research center. WHICH IS WRONG

You can't patent features for vBulletin boards. How naive are you!

Paul M
17 Jun 2006, 19:02
i disagree completely. Many coders make free mods on this site and then jelsoft just come a long and pick up any mods they like and stuff it in the next version of vB without the users permission which is breaking the rules of this site. So if we want to realease paid hacks then we should seeing as jelsoft get paid for our work.What complete nonsense. Jelsoft may take the idea (since it's obviously popular) but they don't use the code.

Jelsoft is not taking your code and putting it in their software, they are adding things to their product that their customers request. If you see an add-on with over 2000 installs it would be crazy not to say "Hey a lot of people are using it, and we're getting threads about it on vBulletin.com all the time. I think it would be a good idea to add that as it's something our customers would really enjoy".Funnily enough, the only mod with over 2000 installs is not included, but if it ever were, I would not be knocking on their door looking for payment (nor I expect would any of the other people who have produced a similar thing over the various versions of vb ;)).

Zachery
17 Jun 2006, 19:27
To use an example Livewire's vBSigHosting hack. He did not get contacted. Most of the new feature is/was based on andreas's sig limits, and they added the ability to have an attachment in the sig.

rogersnm
17 Jun 2006, 19:29
what ever i am not in the mood to argue so lets just drop it and ge3t back on topic.

Freddie Bingham
17 Jun 2006, 20:34
There are only two instances of where we have used contributed code.

The original Poll hack by Doron was integrated (in 1.x I believe). The second instance is when I integrated Overgrow's Karma. In both instances this was only done after the author granted permission.

We do not look at the source of your modifications. Frankly, we do not need to view your source code to be able to program a feature that serves the same purpose. Customers ask for features, we add them to the internal feature list and rank them. We then go down the list adding the features. I am sure that some of these requests come from customers that saw such a feature here and they serve as the middleman. We don't come trolling here looking for ideas, as we have no shortage of ideas. If we used this website for our ideas, then why don't we have RPG addons, uCash, Arcade, and all the other popular hacks? With 3.6 we simply added items that were requested frequently on vBulletin.com. I think you'll find the infraction system doesn't function like the Warning System hacks. That is because I programmed it with my own goals, not basing it on anything that was already established. Hence people complain that it doesn't actually change usergroups like the hacks.

Why are we being accused of stealing a signature limiting system when phpBB had the same thing before any hack existed on this forum? I've long suggested that we must limit signature images by forcing them to be uploaded like Avatars. It was on the 2.x todo list but didn't make the cut.

Just look here (http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showpost.php?p=863047&postcount=34).

I couldn't tell you what the most popular hacks are or what gets installed often. Part of the problem with this website is that we (developers) do not browse this website very often and have no idea what is going on here. I only found this thread because Zachery pointed it out to me. Please don't be so quick off the handle to accuse us of theft. We have rather high standards and would have to quit before we would ever use anyone else's code again.

We appreciate the importance of this website to the future of vBulletin. The presented issues are being examined and we hope to be able to keep this communit vibrant and active.

Christine
17 Jun 2006, 22:51
Well this went off topic. :/

Sad that a dev had to jump in to defend their additions to the core install -- as if anyone with a text editor couldn't see that the code is not the same as the hacks.

Personally, I was ELATED the day I heard that I wouldn't have to hack for persistent mark forum read any longer. It isn't about ego (or shouldn't be) -- the more that goes into the core install, the less we ALL have to fiddle with on updates. 3 of my minor releases for 3.5 became irrelevant with 3.6 and I couldn't be happier about that.

Color me old school, but I will take SourceForge over Commercial any day. :p

That said -- I wanted to note something. I noticed that the majority of the threads in VB General Mod Discussions are answered/addressed by the .org team. I for one will plan to make that my first stop here and address anything I am capable of giving a coherent answer to. I would challenge others to do the same -- as we were ALL new to this once.

:)

MJM
17 Jun 2006, 23:33
Freddie I'm glad to hear you have 'scouts' here at vB.org to keep you updated ... in particular of our most wanted wish lists.
It became tiring a long time ago to post requests into vB.com AND also post them here, with the hopes that someone here might be interested in tackling the request.

I'm not sure how you gauge from customers what they feel the most wanted of features are ... It certainly should not be based on replies to suggestions as many like myself are too busy with our own site to scan through the (current) listing of 7,765 threads in the Suggestion Forum.
... and it might cause an overload to your servers if it was necessary for us to reply to every wish with 'I want this', in order for it to get top priority.

I've suggested in the past of adding a poll to any suggestions that might be do-able so that we could express our opinion of a suggestion without the need to reply to every post.
Also please consider having a pre-beta survey of sorts, itemizing possible inclusions in the next release.

My understanding and acceptance for the somewhat lag (in my opinion) in the introduction of some features at vB.com over the years is because a considerable amount of effort was needed to be put in the development of the backbone of this software, which I am extremely pleased with.
And vB.org has served very well as a place where customers who've wanted to take this software to new levels can exchange ideas and test-run applications and so forth.

I have no clue personally if this software has reached a milestone, or whether version 4 or 5 will require a major revamp as did ver 2 to 3.

Whatever ... vB.org has been an invaluable partner in the development of this product despite what a very small handful of very vocal critics might say.
Here's to wishing vB.org /vB.com a continuing and positive collaboration in the development of this product.

For many of us, the lives we have made for ourselves through the use of this product depends on this.

Best wishes,
Mark

Revan
18 Jun 2006, 00:15
Just my $.02:
I honestly did think that developers came here and used our hacks as inspiration (not to steal code, obviously they code their own), and therefore I thought "cool, my soft deleted archive got included. Would be cool to have gotten a PM about it tho." because seriously, how cool wouldnt it be to get an official PM stating that a hack concept you use is being included in the defauly vBulletin ^_^
But Im not about to go cry in the corner just because I had to find out on my own :p

Whether or not Jelsoft uses our hacks as inspiration, as a hacker who got at least one of his hacks added to stock vBulletin (though in another form, but you know what I mean :P) I say that it feels really great. It makes me feel like what I spent hours upon hours on coding was actually worth a damn to the general public, not just forum type specific such as the RPG. Im glad that Im able to write something beyond Monster Battles :p


//peace

ubblite
18 Jun 2006, 00:18
What you are basically saying is that since we paid for Windows, we should get all Windows based software for free.
lol, you have completely assumed all the wrong things about my post. This is the last time I will explain it to you in a slightly different way and maybe you will understand.

From a BUSINESS standpoint, it makes sense in that VB staff knows hacks which can be had for no cost are a valuable resource to the potential buyer who is shopping for BBS software. Now read closely; I have NO problem with people charging for hacks, as a matter of fact I have purchased a few for myself, all I'm saying is you have to look at it from VB's perspective, too.

Christine
18 Jun 2006, 00:19
I would be surprised if most popular hacks here weren't posted at some point on the suggestions forum at vb.com. I know that in many cases, suggestions there became hacks here as Andreas did a few of them in the last year alone based on threads over there.

I remain surprised that this is even a discussion item though. Must just be me. :p

FASherman
18 Jun 2006, 00:28
1. No paying hacks allowed. If you want to make money, you are not welcome to advertise your products at vB.org site, in links, any way or shape of promotion schemes.
Gotta disagree bigtime on this one. When there is something I want for my site, I want the option of buying a program rather than waiting 6 months to a year for a hack to mature into what I need.

Plus we have to accept responsibility for paid programs. Some of the developers released code that made for their own site and were perfectly happy with it. They released it just so others could benefit.

Then the bugs are found, new features are requested and before long, they're working on code to the extent that it takes as much time as a part time job.

I don't care whether a list of paid add-ons is maintained here or at VB.Com, but their should be one place where we can look for paid code when the free code here isn't what we need.

Besides, if you take such a hard line, why should anyone with paid code release lite versions here?

Wrap your heads around this. Not everyone running a VB site is a hobbyist. Some are legitimate business sites, revenue producers or support sites and we don't have to take the cheapsake approach. Both types of users should be accomodated,

smacklan
18 Jun 2006, 01:17
Wrap your heads around this. Not everyone running a VB site is a hobbyist. Some are legitimate business sites, revenue producers or support sites and we don't have to take the cheapsake approach. Both types of users should be accomodated,
Well said, but here at the org we are pariahs, so to speak.

Freddie Bingham
18 Jun 2006, 01:48
Just my $.02:
I honestly did think that developers came here and used our hacks as inspiration (not to steal code, obviously they code their own), and therefore I thought "cool, my soft deleted archive got included. Would be cool to have gotten a PM about it tho." because seriously, how cool wouldnt it be to get an official PM stating that a hack concept you use is being included in the defauly vBulletin ^_^
I also coded the moderated/soft deleted threads feature. I didn't really think it warranted a high placement on the feature list but Kier wanted a global place to manage soft deleted threads. Our original plan was to merge the modcp into the admincp and make it all permissions based. We've since changed that plan to not allow moderators into the admincp to perform actions they currently do from the modcp. We are sure a fair number of complaints would be made about possible security breaches if moderators are allowed in the same code base as administrators.

I've always hated the modcp and thought that all of that stuff should be moved to the front end so the new plan is to merge the modcp into the user cp. The soft deleted feature was to go into the modcp but I suggested that we should put it in the usercp now and avoid having to move it in the future. I also suggested that we should add moderated threads since both features could share code base rather easily. I'm sorry to say but I wasn't aware there was a hack to manage deleted threads already.
So if there exists a hack to add moderator abilities into the mod cp, be forewarned, we aren't stealing it from you when 4.0 is released :)

Of course, many suggestions made to us at vbulletin.com stem from users using them first as modifications from this site so your code does serve as inspiration in a round about way for many features.

Christine
18 Jun 2006, 01:54
Our original plan was to merge the modcp into the admincp and make it all permissions based. We've since changed that plan to not allow moderators into the admincp to perform actions they currently do from the modcp.

<snip>

I've always hated the modcp and thought that all of that stuff should be moved to the front end so the new plan is to merge the modcp into the user cp.
Thanks for sharing this, Freddie. I was hoping to see the MCP and ACP merge, but I like this even better. Looking forward to seeing what you all come up with on this. :)

Revan
18 Jun 2006, 09:56
I also coded the moderated/soft deleted threads feature. I didn't really think it warranted a high placement on the feature list but Kier wanted a global place to manage soft deleted threads. Our original plan was to merge the modcp into the admincp and make it all permissions based. We've since changed that plan to not allow moderators into the admincp to perform actions they currently do from the modcp. We are sure a fair number of complaints would be made about possible security breaches if moderators are allowed in the same code base as administrators.I don't think there would be any security breaches as long as each hack made sure to specify a permission rather than just calling can_administer() for error checking (unless it's the intention to allow all admins, that is).
But I might not see the whole picture, so don't flame me for this one :p
As for your emphasis on the word "coded", Im sorry if I made it sound like I thought/think you steal code, because I've never thought that. It's quite obvious that, for instance, while your Infraction system has display similarities (ie how it looks on the screen) to AWS, anyone could just open the file and see tis a completely different code set.
I've always hated the modcp and thought that all of that stuff should be moved to the front end so the new plan is to merge the modcp into the user cp.I only dislike the modcp because theres no link to it on the frontend. I heard the reason for this tho, so don't take this as complaining about it without knowing why :)
I'm sorry to say but I wasn't aware there was a hack to manage deleted threads already.Bah ok then =P
So if there exists a hack to add moderator abilities into the mod cp, be forewarned, we aren't stealing it from you when 4.0 is released :)And when is that again? :D

EasyTarget
19 Jun 2006, 04:42
The vb.Org Customer Team's Team Leader's vision for the site is a private forum to discuss code with only people she likes?! I'll hold the rest of my comments for the promised "Town Hall" thread, but couldn't resist pointing out the irony and shocking disconnect between your staff role and your "vision". Wasn't there a screening process during staff selection?Damned if you do, damned if you don't. TECK asked the mods/admins to share their personal visions and Amy did so, then you take the opportunity to attack her. Stop your personal crusade and let other people express their ideas.. I think everyone gets it, you don't want the coders forum to be private.

tgreer
19 Jun 2006, 04:48
When those "personal views" are diametrically opposed to the purpose of the site and the particular position held by the staff member in question, those views deserved to be scrutinized.

noppid
19 Jun 2006, 04:57
i disagree completely. Many coders make free mods on this site and then jelsoft just come a long and pick up any mods they like and stuff it in the next version of vB without the users permission which is breaking the rules of this site. So if we want to realease paid hacks then we should seeing as jelsoft get paid for our work.

Conversely, they let us reuse their code. It's quid quo pro.

Copying an idea is different then copying code. I consider it a blessing when the good ideas from here appear in the vB production code. Some of my private hacks have been obsoleted because of new features. It's great that the management of that code is off my back. I love it!

EasyTarget
19 Jun 2006, 05:35
When those "personal views" are diametrically opposed to the purpose of the site and the particular position held by the staff member in question, those views deserved to be scrutinized.that's by your interpretation. Her views and the forum in question doesn't conflict with it in the least bit for me.

and you're saying that she's ok to think what she wants, as long as you're okay with it, or it doesn't conflict with your opinion.

Brad
19 Jun 2006, 05:40
People want it both ways... Many of you want the staff expressing their personal opinions here, which is not really a bad thing as long as everyone conducts themselves like adults. The problem comes into play when you start tearing their posts down bit by bit, and telling them they do not deserve a position on the staff. This does nothing but drive them away from your points, they don't have to put up with this if they don't want to, rest assured no one is over there forcing them to press F5 all day.

I don't think any of you really realize how stressful it is for the staff members here. Think about it, how would you like to wake up to this mess everyday? Would you enjoy waking up in the middle of the night because you're worried about the drama going on in this forum? I know these are some of the things I did, and I'm sure other staff members (past and present) know exactly what I am trying to get at here.

Be respectful to your peers (staff, and fellow users). A polite "While I disagree with your points, I can respect them. Here is why I think they are incorrect" goes a long way in getting your opinion noticed in the staff forums. Really there is more to it than that, it shows respect...and I'm not talking about respecting someone because they are staff. I'm talking about respecting them because they are just like you: human.

Treat people how you want to be treated, and you'll find things will start to improve. Realize that this site is not about coders, or users, or staff, or the elite. It's about coming together and doing things that benefit the greater good. It's about learning from your peers, and passing on what you learned to others.

There will never be a time when you agree with everything that goes on here. This is just a fact of life, you just have to accept that while you may not think something belongs here, many others may not share this opinion. By all means express your opinion here, but please try to do it in a polite way.

Above all remember, this is not some school yard where you have to yell to get noticed. This is a community, for message board admins, who are looking to improve their communities and share knowledge with one another. Without places like this vBulletin would not be what it is today, hell the internet as a whole might not even exist, at least not in the form we see it in today.

It's always good to get ideas from both sides of an issue, this is the only way to find some sort of common ground. But you have to learn to work together even when you do not agree with each other. If you do not learn how to do this you will start to ignore some of your peers as time goes on, and that means you're not seeing the whole story.

Ohiosweetheart
19 Jun 2006, 06:21
VERY well said, Brad...

Erwin
19 Jun 2006, 06:58
Brad is like a refreshing breath of fresh air in smoggy downtown. :)

Shelley_c
19 Jun 2006, 12:53
People want it both ways... Many of you want the staff expressing their personal opinions here, which is not really a bad thing as long as everyone conducts themselves like adults. The problem comes into play when you start tearing their posts down bit by bit, and telling them they do not deserve a position on the staff. This does nothing but drive them away from your points, they don't have to put up with this if they don't want to, rest assured no one is over there forcing them to press F5 all day.

I don't think any of you really realize how stressful it is for the staff members here. Think about it, how would you like to wake up to this mess everyday? Would you enjoy waking up in the middle of the night because you're worried about the drama going on in this forum? I know these are some of the things I did, and I'm sure other staff members (past and present) know exactly what I am trying to get at here.

Be respectful to your peers (staff, and fellow users). A polite "While I disagree with your points, I can respect them. Here is why I think they are incorrect" goes a long way in getting your opinion noticed in the staff forums. Really there is more to it than that, it shows respect...and I'm not talking about respecting someone because they are staff. I'm talking about respecting them because they are just like you: human.

Treat people how you want to be treated, and you'll find things will start to improve. Realize that this site is not about coders, or users, or staff, or the elite. It's about coming together and doing things that benefit the greater good. It's about learning from your peers, and passing on what you learned to others.

There will never be a time when you agree with everything that goes on here. This is just a fact of life, you just have to accept that while you may not think something belongs here, many others may not share this opinion. By all means express your opinion here, but please try to do it in a polite way.

Above all remember, this is not some school yard where you have to yell to get noticed. This is a community, for message board admins, who are looking to improve their communities and share knowledge with one another. Without places like this vBulletin would not be what it is today, hell the internet as a whole might not even exist, at least not in the form we see it in today.

It's always good to get ideas from both sides of an issue, this is the only way to find some sort of common ground. But you have to learn to work together even when you do not agree with each other. If you do not learn how to do this you will start to ignore some of your peers as time goes on, and that means you're not seeing the whole story.


I partially read your reply brad and what you say is very much sound. On the otherhand, Actions which followed would contradict what you say. Take the graphic database for example, Most importantly the placement. From a contributors perspective vbulletin made it very hard for designers to get a foothold in this area. I made a suggestion on ways of improving this area and with much contributing from myself after a solid month and being told it was being structured for the better it took a turn for the worse. I even suggested about naming the sub headings and posted them (which were sound) and still they are left empty. If indeed staff want the community to work together you need to work with them. So far, Staff aren't. You are told that progress is being made and when it is it's for the worse (I'm speaking of the graphic database).

Again, I am pointing to the graphic database and speaking as a contributor that the people behind the scenes didn't take a blind bit of notice and took it upon themselves to totally shatter the gfx database.

IMHO The staff would have a deeper respect for the graphic database if (from the start) you had dedicated staff to contribute into it. Heck, check invisionizie.com to see what I'm saying. For a resource site vb.org have possibly the worst structed, placement, content driven graphic database for any board software which was a shock to me when I first visited. Who do we blame for this, Well, I can only blame the people who neglected it and when feedback was ignored you only continue to pave the way for a shabby looking database.

Sure enough If progress in this area was taking a turn for the better you would be more obliged to have made something from it and take feedback from the members who have experience in graphic databases. You didn't which leads me to think people hold back in giving suggestions and feedback which also means you shouldn't be surprised why contributors get fustrated.

Actions speak louder than words brad and although your reply makes for good and sound reading you only have to take a look at the gfx area to see what I'm talking about and the ignored feedback I and others tried to give.

Ohiosweetheart
19 Jun 2006, 14:14
Brad is like a refreshing breath of fresh air in smoggy downtown. :)

lol...

tgreer
19 Jun 2006, 15:01
that's by your interpretation. Her views and the forum in question doesn't conflict with it in the least bit for me.

and you're saying that she's ok to think what she wants, as long as you're okay with it, or it doesn't conflict with your opinion.

I'm not doing any "interpretation" at all. Nor did I ever say what you just said I said. :) Simply re-read her post. She said what she said, and no one put "words in her mouth". Her sentiments and views regarding the site are contradictory and isolationist, but they are NOT ambiguous: no interpretation required.

And once more, anything further regarding the "forum in question" will have to wait for the promised but yet to appear Town Hall thread on the subject.

noppid
19 Jun 2006, 16:59
I'm not doing any "interpretation" at all. Nor did I ever say what you just said I said. :) Simply re-read her post. She said what she said, and no one put "words in her mouth". Her sentiments and views regarding the site are contradictory and isolationist, but they are NOT ambiguous: no interpretation required.

And once more, anything further regarding the "forum in question" will have to wait for the promised but yet to appear Town Hall thread on the subject.

I got your back on this one. You are dead on correct. She has stated clearly that she is not going to budge on her position no matter how many members disagree with her and that where she can influence the decision she will.

That is exactly what she has said and I have quoted her on it. Now she can either live by her words or deny them.

Neither benefits the community. A good manager follows the market demands. ;)


P.S. Don't try to twist this into I think Amy is bad. I don't think that at all. I do think her postition of power and her expression of opinion lately are very selfish though. This is a community, not a club. Everyone pays the same to be here and should have all the same benefits. That is my problem, not the person, but the persons actions regarding one issue.

The Geek
19 Jun 2006, 17:05
A good manager gets paid well. A good volunteer however will represent the community at large and be able to be respected for their points of view.

Cut her some freaking slack. I'd rather have people here that can voice their opinion without being skinned by a couple of vocalists. Crikey, shes far less vocal than some on this thread.

TECK
19 Jun 2006, 17:13
When those "personal views" are diametrically opposed to the purpose of the site and the particular position held by the staff member in question, those views deserved to be scrutinized.
There is a way to say it, so the person doesn't get hurt...
What do you gain to create tension in a constructive discussion?
It will stop others share their oppinions, knowing they will be attacked by members.

So where is the advantage? You let us know.

Thanks.

tgreer
19 Jun 2006, 17:24
I haven't attacked amy. I don't even know her. She's probably a fantastic person: intelligent, witty, charming. I've praised her actions, such as actively moderating threads when they went off-topic, even though those actions weren't popular. So this isn't personal in the least.

However, her views and "vision" of what this site should be, are indeed directly opposed to what one would expect from the "Customer Team Leader".

And you don't have to take my word for it. Just imagine the ideal "Customer Team Leader", what viewpoints such a person should have regarding the site, and the various reasons people (customers) visit the site, how they could get the most from it... and then read her public posts, and compare.

In at least one respect, my fears are well-founded. I asked for a Town Hall thread on the coders forum issue, one was announced, I've held my tongue on the issue waiting for it, and wondered if it could be handled impartially. So, where is that thread?

Dean C
19 Jun 2006, 17:45
I agree with you tgreer on that particular member of staff.

MJM
19 Jun 2006, 17:49
I've held my tongue on the issue waiting for it, and wondered if it could be handled impartially. So, where is that thread?
tgreer, I've read all your posts on this issue and I wouldn't exactly say you've 'held your tongue' on this issue :)

I'm curious what more can you add to this?
No offence, but this banana has been beaten to a pulp.

Marco van Herwaarden
19 Jun 2006, 18:00
The topic of Amykhar's post has been discussed enough now.

She clearly stated that she was voicing a personal opinion. You are free to judge her as a person for having this opinion. And so you have done, and this should stop here.

As a Staff member Amykhar must follow the Staff policies just like any other Staff member, her personal opinion doesn't make a difference in her action as a staff member. If you feel that any staff member is abusing a Staff postion to force their personal opinion, then you could contact an Administrator so he can investigate the issue.

In at least one respect, my fears are well-founded. I asked for a Town Hall thread on the coders forum issue, one was announced, I've held my tongue on the issue waiting for it, and wondered if it could be handled impartially. So, where is that thread?It was announced the 16th, it is now 19th. Is that so long waited? That same question you have now posted and got answered in multiple forums here and vbulletin.com, and also had been answered by me in PM to you.

tgreer
19 Jun 2006, 20:11
The topic of Amykhar's post has been discussed enough now.

She clearly stated that she was voicing a personal opinion. You are free to judge her as a person for having this opinion. And so you have done, and this should stop here.

As a Staff member Amykhar must follow the Staff policies just like any other Staff member, her personal opinion doesn't make a difference in her action as a staff member. If you feel that any staff member is abusing a Staff postion to force their personal opinion, then you could contact an Administrator so he can investigate the issue.

It was announced the 16th, it is now 19th. Is that so long waited? That same question you have now posted and got answered in multiple forums here and vbulletin.com, and also had been answered by me in PM to you.

I've never judged anyone here as a "person", it would be unthinkable. Please don't imply that I've judged anyone.

As to a public TOWNHALL thread, there's nothing I can post in reply to you that you won't end up deleting, which makes it a bit hard to carry on the conversation. In fact, I've asked several questions about this situation on vbulletin.com, which you haven't answered.

MJM
19 Jun 2006, 20:33
tgreer, if the mods will permit, I'd prefer to reply to your PM in this thread.

One thing I really appreciate regarding some of your past posts is the emphasis of the need to act as professionals here at vB.org.
As Brad and others have pointed out, there is one main common denominator here that brings us together - We are mostly all admins and/or owners of our own site.

One of the toughest things we are faced with is the delegating of responsibilities.
This is really difficult to do because we know only too well what this involves, and know in our own minds what we aspire to be, but inevitably must pass on various responsibilities to others ... if we are to do well, what we do best.

As an admin, I'll be the first to admit that 'before I could learn to walk I had to learn to crawl' and even though now I can run, I still occasionally stumble.

And I am extremely grateful to those who have given me the space to learn at my own pace, despite occasional mistakes and blunders.

As an admin yourself I hope you agree that this is what we should afford the staff at vB.org.
They need time and space, even be permitted to make mistakes without being made to look like fools.

Re: creating private forums for whatever purpose...
All I can say to this is thank god everything isn't hashed out in the open!
The result would be - too many bright minds bickering over the details with little else getting done.

I really apologize if I sounded insulting. ... My wife says I can be downright callous at time ... but when it comes down to the nitty gritty I know of no other way to say it.
Let's give 'em a break. Even let 'em make mistakes.
Most of all they need to know they have our support.

Cheers,
Mark

tgreer
19 Jun 2006, 20:45
I only PM'd you to give you an answer to your question. I think wide-ranging issues which affect the entire community should be discussed openly; I don't make a habit of politicking via PM.

I agree that we all make mistakes. That isn't the issue. The issue is how one handles such mistakes. You'll just have to take my word that I didn't immediately rush over to vbulletin.com: I first PM'd the administrators about the mistake, and then took what I felt was the only reasonable next action based on the responses.

You don't sound insulting at all. I appreciate your very tactful post.

noppid
19 Jun 2006, 20:48
Here's the quality of your coders in the coders forum. I just looked up one member. He has access because he posted code someone else wrote with permission.

What does that "coder" bring to the table that someone else that did not code a hack does not?

I bet I can find more of these so called "coders". But as with everything else that is done in this club, it will be justified with some exception rule that only clique members can live up to.

Roms
19 Jun 2006, 21:01
What was the topic of this thread again? This has turned into a "complain about everything" thread.

Lets stop complaining about EVERYTHING and realize you can't have everything a certain way. I don't always agree with the staff but they are running the site, they can't second guess every decision to make everyone happy it's not going to happen..

Brad
19 Jun 2006, 21:04
I partially read your reply brad and what you say is very much sound. On the otherhand, Actions which followed would contradict what you say. Take the graphic database for example, Most importantly the placement. From a contributors perspective vbulletin made it very hard for designers to get a foothold in this area. I made a suggestion on ways of improving this area and with much contributing from myself after a solid month and being told it was being structured for the better it took a turn for the worse. I even suggested about naming the sub headings and posted them (which were sound) and still they are left empty. If indeed staff want the community to work together you need to work with them. So far, Staff aren't. You are told that progress is being made and when it is it's for the worse (I'm speaking of the graphic database).

Again, I am pointing to the graphic database and speaking as a contributor that the people behind the scenes didn't take a blind bit of notice and took it upon themselves to totally shatter the gfx database.

IMHO The staff would have a deeper respect for the graphic database if (from the start) you had dedicated staff to contribute into it. Heck, check invisionizie.com to see what I'm saying. For a resource site vb.org have possibly the worst structed, placement, content driven graphic database for any board software which was a shock to me when I first visited. Who do we blame for this, Well, I can only blame the people who neglected it and when feedback was ignored you only continue to pave the way for a shabby looking database.

Sure enough If progress in this area was taking a turn for the better you would be more obliged to have made something from it and take feedback from the members who have experience in graphic databases. You didn't which leads me to think people hold back in giving suggestions and feedback which also means you shouldn't be surprised why contributors get fustrated.

Actions speak louder than words brad and although your reply makes for good and sound reading you only have to take a look at the gfx area to see what I'm talking about and the ignored feedback I and others tried to give.
You were heard, and I did attempt to make it better when I had time. The problem with this was many things. There were on-going plans to improve the site, that included a new style and lots of additions by the coding team. As such I did not wish to make radical changes to the style or the code currently begin used to power this site, I knew that work would just be thrown out in a couple of months.

I did what I could: I gave you an installation button and 'hack style' thread layout for these threads. I gave the graphics it's own page and linked to it from the 'portal' I made for hack releases. I planned on doing more (showing them in your profile for example) but I had to take my leave before that could get done, if you continue to express your opinion the current staff will keep trying to improve this area of the site.

I agree with you, actions speak louder than words, but action does take time. Please realize that I had a lot going on at that time, and could not devote 100% of my time to your requests. I was busy dealing with other users, training a bunch of new staff members, answering day to day questions from staff members about current issues, breaking in a new admin, and I was speaking to Jelsoft (and it was working) while doing all of this.

I was also the only one could make changes to the code here at the time, heck I was the only on with any kind of access to the server after Erwin and Stefan left. In about a week or so I went from having a small role as an admin here to begin "the man in charge". When you're the man in charge of a site like this there are a ton of things you have to do daily, you guys don't see this so you just assume it does not happen...to top all of this off, I was doing everything from a connection that takes upwards to a minute to load a thread. How many of you are still on dial-up by the way? How many of you that are on dial-up dial in at about 12kbps? That's what I use to get on the internet everyday. ;)

EasyTarget
19 Jun 2006, 22:09
I'm not doing any "interpretation" at all. Nor did I ever say what you just said I said. :) Simply re-read her post. She said what she said, and no one put "words in her mouth". Her sentiments and views regarding the site are contradictory and isolationist, but they are NOT ambiguous: no interpretation required.Again, that's your interpretation. Her sentiments and views regarding the site are not in any way contradictory to me. Just because you think you're right doesn't make it so. This isn't an issue with a right/wrong. Its one way of doing something vs. another way of doing something. You're not getting your way right now and you've been throwing a tantrum. Its like you're afraid that the changes they've announced will be coming won't be what you want so you're trying to make as big a stink as possible to get your way.

To me your sentiments and views are contradictory. You want people to talk about coding, yet there have been open coding forums for a long time and, according to you, little talk of coding. Now there's finally coding talk in the coders forum and you want it to go back to how it was before, which will just stop the coders from talking. If that isn't so, then why wasn't there coding talk before? Like I said, if you want coding talk to be discussed openly for everyone, then you need to be the one to start the conversation.
She has stated clearly that she is not going to budge on her position no matter how many members disagree with her and that where she can influence the decision she will.

That is exactly what she has said and I have quoted her on it. Now she can either live by her words or deny them.link to said quote?
Her posts in this thread say nothing of the sort.
http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showpost.php?p=1009073&postcount=112
http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showpost.php?p=1009360&postcount=129

Also, you seem to give a lot of credit to Amy as a person, yet you don't think she'd be able to separate her own views on this particular subject from the wishes of the community, if they didn't happen to coincide. (which I'm sure she's had to do on numerous other issues as well). This thread was about opinions and it was asked specifically that the mods and admins share their personal views, she gave hers, now lay off. She's entitled to one just as everyone else is, even if its not the one you want her to have. Admins can still do a fine job fulfilling the wishes of the community even when they personally think another direction might be better.

tgreer
19 Jun 2006, 22:14
Again, that's your interpretation. Her sentiments and views regarding the site are not in any way contradictory to me. Just because you think you're right doesn't make it so. This isn't an issue with a right/wrong. Its one way of doing something vs. another way of doing something. You're not getting your way right now and you've been throwing a tantrum. Its like you're afraid that the changes they've announced will be coming won't be what you want so you're trying to make as big a stink as possible to get your way.

Wow, talk about an interpretation! They've announced changes? Where?

EasyTarget
19 Jun 2006, 22:18
yeah, amazing, isn't it? You can read about it at www.vbulletin.org. Glad I could help.

Princeton
19 Jun 2006, 22:19
We are now closing this thread as it is no longer useful to us in it's current form ... if you want to share your ideas and/or suggestions, we have started a town hall thread ... [TOWN HALL] Supporting the entire Member Base. (http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=119069)

thank you for understanding