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  #196  
Old 26 Mar 2014, 21:36
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digitalpoint digitalpoint is offline
 
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Originally Posted by katie hunter View Post
Yes, that is for VB 4.x but we know VB 5.x uses now Sphinx search, Vbulletin learned what would be best to use for search results and they've integrated Sphinx into VB 5.x moving forward.
Utilizing Sphinx on the backend, doesn't automatically make it work well. Sphinx is just a technology they can choose to use.

The only reason I point that out is I'm curious if you have ever tried to actually FIND something you were looking for on vbulletin.com?

Example... search for "digitalpoint" there, under vB4 there were over 1,000 results (which I know are still in posts there). Under vB4/Sphinx it shows 43 results.

Even Google sees exponentially more posts, and it doesn't even have access to things like License Customer Feedback areas.

Google shows 1,130 results for me:
https://encrypted.google.com/search?...m+digitalpoint

Long story short is that Sphinx doesn't necessarily make search good, and search under Sphinx on vbulletin.com is flat out terrible.
  #197  
Old 26 Mar 2014, 21:40
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katie hunter katie hunter is offline
 
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Originally Posted by KW802 View Post
So, yes, you did question why vB4 had an "inferior" search function then?

In regards to XF, what it tells me is that the developers were realistic in that most forum installs aren't likely to even have Sphinx installed on the server and by separating the Sphinx add-on coding it allows for a leaner core at a lower price point while also offering an option for those customers who might need. You're right, that does tell us a lot.
It doesn't translate that way. Read my previous reply.

VB 4.x didn't have Sphinx Search as part of its core search function
VB 5.x did have Sphinx Search as part of its core function without charging customers for it.

XF does have an enhanced Search Function i.e., using http://www.elasticsearch.org/ they aren't using Sphinx by the way. And so they are charging customers an additional $50 for it when it should be part of the core product. Not to mention being forced to pay for a higher renewal price and if you don't want to keep paying a higher renewal price, you have to actually get rid of the addon you already paid for, so losing the $50 you originally paid. Very very bad policy for money making.

If you had the choice between buying a product with a superior search function without needing to pay an additional $$ for it and a product with an inferior search function and you would need to pay an additional $$ for a better search, which one will you choose? Be honest with yourself.

Remember buying a VB license, grants you access to VB 3.x, 4.x, and 5.x so you have multiple choices and options.
  #198  
Old 26 Mar 2014, 21:41
Necrovaris Necrovaris is offline
 
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Originally Posted by katie hunter View Post
On the other hands, XF is selling a product with a weak search built into its core and if you want the product to perform better, you have to buy a search addon that should have been part of the core function of XF not a plugin in the first place. That tells you a lot actually, that the XF developers think that by spending an x amount of time developing a proper function, they had the right to separate it from the main software and sell it as a plugin. I would never encourage this scheme.

The de-facto Mysql search is the standard search used in thousands of php applications worldwide. To say its weak is like going into a store and buying a new pet dog, then complaning when they want to sell you a brush to groom the dog because you think the brush should have come with the dog.
  #199  
Old 26 Mar 2014, 21:46
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KW802 KW802 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by katie hunter View Post
VB 4.x didn't have Sphinx Search as part of its core search function
VB 5.x did have Sphinx Search as part of its core function without charging customers for it.
And the price point for vB5 is what again compared to XF core & prior versions?

Originally Posted by katie hunter View Post
If you had the choice of buying a product with a superior search function without needing to pay an additional $$ for it and a product with an inferior search function and you would need to pay an additional $$ for a better search, which one will you choose? Be honest with yourself.
I would buy the product that works. As you yourself said, that is not vB5, so buying a vB5 license to get access to vB4 would still require an add-on, whether free or paid, to the level of Sphinx searching that you're looking for.
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  #200  
Old 26 Mar 2014, 21:47
Necrovaris Necrovaris is offline
 
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Originally Posted by katie hunter View Post
If you had the choice between buying a product with a superior search function without needing to pay an additional $$ for it and a product with an inferior search function and you would need to pay an additional $$ for a better search, which one will you choose? Be honest with yourself.
vBulletin 5 - $249.00

XenForo - $140
XenForo Search Addon - $50
Total - $190

Yea id go with XenForo, its $60 cheaper
  #201  
Old 26 Mar 2014, 21:52
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katie hunter katie hunter is offline
 
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Originally Posted by digitalpoint View Post
Utilizing Sphinx on the backend, doesn't automatically make it work well. Sphinx is just a technology they can choose to use.

The only reason I point that out is I'm curious if you have ever tried to actually FIND something you were looking for on vbulletin.com?

Example... search for "digitalpoint" there, under vB4 there were over 1,000 results (which I know are still in posts there). Under vB4/Sphinx it shows 43 results.

Even Google sees exponentially more posts, and it doesn't even have access to things like License Customer Feedback areas.

Google shows 1,130 results for me:
https://encrypted.google.com/search?...m+digitalpoint

Long story short is that Sphinx doesn't necessarily make search good, and search under Sphinx on vbulletin.com is flat out terrible.
I really don't understand your point being that you're the one who made the plugin for VB 4.x https://marketplace.digitalpoint.com...tin-4.870/item

Performance & Scalability
Sphinx is the system that very high traffic sites use to handle searching (it can handle millions of searches per day across billions of documents) without any problems. Sites like Craigslist, Slashdot and WordPress all use Sphinx for their search. Offloading searches from your database will lead to far less database resources required to run your site/forum.

A rough example of how much resources the default search uses, it took nearly 5 days to index 12M posts with the vB database search. The exact same content took 18 minutes to index with our Sphinx system.
Your comment is contradicting with your statement.

Originally Posted by KW802 View Post
And the price point for vB5 is what again compared to XF core & prior versions?

I would buy the product that works. As you yourself said, that is not vB5, so buying a vB5 license to get access to vB4 would still require an add-on, whether free or paid, to the level of Sphinx searching that you're looking for.
We are running in a weird circle here. Not everyone needs Sphinx, only big boards with many topics, posts and members and in my case Sphinx was very helpful. But then again having the best is always better, just like servers when it comes to cores, rams, and hard drives. You're always looking for better servers at a very good price even if your site doesn't need a very powerful server.

So out of the box, if a customer buys a VB software and we know VB 5.x will be better, it just needs time just as much as XF needs at least 2 years to catch up to VB but if a customer buys a VB 5.x and uses its Sphinx search and his or her forum became popular, he or she knows quite well that he or she will benefit from the Sphinx search.
  #202  
Old 26 Mar 2014, 21:56
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KW802 KW802 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by katie hunter View Post
We are running in a weird circle here. Not everyone needs Sphinx, only big boards with many topics, posts and members and in my case Sphinx was very helpful.

So out of the box, if a customer buys a VB software and we know VB 5.x will be better, it just needs time just as much as XF needs at least 2 years to catch up to VB but if a customer buys a VB 5.x and uses its Sphinx search and his forum became popular, he or she knows quite well that he will benefit from the Sphinx search.
So pay more now for something that may or may not work in the future? That is not exactly prudent.

Originally Posted by KW802 View Post
So, yes, you did question why vB4 had an "inferior" search function then?

In regards to XF, what it tells me is that the developers were realistic in that most forum installs aren't likely to even have Sphinx installed on the server and by separating the Sphinx add-on coding it allows for a leaner core at a lower price point while also offering an option for those customers who might need. You're right, that does tell us a lot.
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  #203  
Old 26 Mar 2014, 22:03
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katie hunter katie hunter is offline
 
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Originally Posted by KW802 View Post
So pay more now for something that may or may not work in the future? That is not exactly prudent.
That is not logically right as we know the amount of work and features put into Vbulletin isn't equal to the amount of work and features XF is currently dealing with. Not even the number of developers Vbulletin has is equal to the number of developers XF has (which are two dev, Mike & Kier)

If i logged in to my Vbulletin 4.x , i find this list

Engineering Alan Orduno, Brett Morriss, Danco Dimovski, David Grove, Edwin Brown, Fernando Varesi, Freddie Bingham, Glenn Vergara, Jay Quiambao, Jorge Tiznado, Kevin Sours, Kyle Furlong, Michael Lavaveshkul, Olga Mandrosov, Paul Marsden, Xiaoyu Huang, Zoltan Szalay

Last time i checked, the newest version of Xenforo 1.3, kier was talking about functions that VB has Spoiler and Multiple Quote http://vimeo.com/84587188

Why are we running in this bad circle? You want to tell me that XF is better VB 4.x?
  #204  
Old 26 Mar 2014, 22:05
Necrovaris Necrovaris is offline
 
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Originally Posted by katie hunter View Post
I really don't understand your point being that you're the one who made the plugin for VB 4.x https://marketplace.digitalpoint.com...tin-4.870/item
.
So your ok with buying the addon for vBulletin but not for XenForo. Little hypocritical no?

Originally Posted by katie hunter View Post
We are running in a weird circle here. Not everyone needs Sphinx, only big boards with many topics, .
Which is why having it as an addon like XenForo makes sense. Why charge people who don't need it by having to bump up the cost of the base software to cover the development and support (which again, XF + Seach addon is still cheaper than vBulletin) for all those boards which WONT be using it?

Put another way, if XenForo included the search addon in the core software, but that meant the price went up from $140 to $150, would you be happy that all the little boards have to pay extra for something they wont use?
  #205  
Old 26 Mar 2014, 22:10
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katie hunter katie hunter is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Necrovaris View Post
So your ok with buying the addon for vBulletin but not for XenForo. Little hypocritical no?

Which is why having it as an addon like XenForo makes sense. Why charge people who don't need it by having to bump up the cost of the base software to cover the development and support (which again, XF + Seach addon is still cheaper than vBulletin) for all those boards which WONT be using it?

Put another way, if XenForo included the search addon in the core software, but that meant the price went up from $140 to $150, would you be happy that all the little boards have to pay extra for something they wont use?
Lol i ignored all your recent replies to me and yet you keep trying to reply back to me :d Don't be intimidated.

There is no comparison between VB 4.x and XF, the product is still in development and needs 2 years to catch up to VB, why is it so hard to accept the truth : ) it hurts i really know but that is the reality. Both XF and Vb 5.x needs another 1 to 2 years to shape up better.

In the meantime VB 4.x with all its features and functions is the best out there and beats both of them.

Originally Posted by Necrovaris View Post
vBulletin 5 - $249.00

XenForo - $140
XenForo Search Addon - $50
Total - $190

Yea id go with XenForo, its $60 cheaper
Did you forgot about Xenforo renewal policy?

XenForo 1-Year Extension - $40, additional cost with add-ons
XenForo Enhanced Search - $50 (extension $10)
XenForo Resource Manager - $60 (extension $15)

So you're looking at giving XF $50 each year vs Vbulletin which is a one time $199 renewal for the next big version i.e., 6.x do the math.
  #206  
Old 26 Mar 2014, 22:11
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KW802 KW802 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by katie hunter View Post
That is not logically right as we know the amount of work and features put into Vbulletin isn't equal to the amount of work and features XF is currently dealing with. Not even the number of developers Vbulletin has is equal to the number of developers XF has (which are two dev, Mike & Kier)

If i logged in to my Vbulletin 4.x , i find this list

Engineering Alan Orduno, Brett Morriss, Danco Dimovski, David Grove, Edwin Brown, Fernando Varesi, Freddie Bingham, Glenn Vergara, Jay Quiambao, Jorge Tiznado, Kevin Sours, Kyle Furlong, Michael Lavaveshkul, Olga Mandrosov, Paul Marsden, Xiaoyu Huang, Zoltan Szalay

Why are we running in this bad circle? You want to tell me that XF is better VB 4.x?
Wait, we're talking about vB4 now? Wasn't your argument that vB5 is going to improve in the next two years and everybody was going to come back to it? Now you are back on vB4, which does not have Sphinx compatibility so I guess that it really is an "inferior" as well.

But, either way, are you trying to say that vBulletin has less or more "work and features" than what "XF is currently dealing with"? And what does the number of people with credits in the the vB ACP have to do with anything? More hands in a product development does not mean by default it is a better product than others.

Just to sum this up.... people should pay more for vB5 because there is a chance it'll be improved in the next two years and, in the interim, they should use the older vB4 version with its inferior search since, after all, they have more people assigned to the project?
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  #207  
Old 26 Mar 2014, 22:27
Necrovaris Necrovaris is offline
 
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Originally Posted by katie hunter View Post
Did you forgot about Xenforo renewal policy?

XenForo 1-Year Extension - $40, additional cost with add-ons
XenForo Enhanced Search - $50 (extension $10)
XenForo Resource Manager - $60 (extension $15)

So you're looking at giving XF $50 each year vs Vbulletin which is a one time $199 renewal for the next big version i.e., 6.x do the math.
Did you forget, XenForo renewals are optional

Even if they wern't, it would take 2 years of renewals to cost more than vBulletin, by which time I would be expecting major new functionality or new version to be available... which means comparatively speaking, when you then have to spend $199 for an upgrade, I already have it for... nothing extra as its in my renewal price... so I then get 3-4 years of being better off before the prices equalise again!

Not to mention, the carrot and stick method of XenForo is better for me as a customer. If the product looks like its poor quality or lacking updates, I dont renew, XenForo loses money. They're encouraged to work better and harder to get me to renew.

With vbulletin, they have all your money upfront. What incentive do they have now to give you a better product?
  #208  
Old 26 Mar 2014, 22:27
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TheLastSuperman TheLastSuperman is offline
 
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Originally Posted by digitalpoint View Post
Utilizing Sphinx on the backend, doesn't automatically make it work well. Sphinx is just a technology they can choose to use.

The only reason I point that out is I'm curious if you have ever tried to actually FIND something you were looking for on vbulletin.com?

Example... search for "digitalpoint" there, under vB4 there were over 1,000 results (which I know are still in posts there). Under vB4/Sphinx it shows 43 results.

Even Google sees exponentially more posts, and it doesn't even have access to things like License Customer Feedback areas.

Google shows 1,130 results for me:
https://encrypted.google.com/search?...m+digitalpoint

Long story short is that Sphinx doesn't necessarily make search good, and search under Sphinx on vbulletin.com is flat out terrible.
Originally Posted by katie hunter View Post
I really don't understand your point being that you're the one who made the plugin for VB 4.x https://marketplace.digitalpoint.com...tin-4.870/item
He's being blatantly honest by saying it still has its pros and cons and outlines one in his example above.
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  #209  
Old 26 Mar 2014, 22:29
Necrovaris Necrovaris is offline
 
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Originally Posted by KW802 View Post
Wait, we're talking about vB4 now? Wasn't your argument that vB5 is going to improve in the next two years and everybody was going to come back to it? Now you are back on vB4, which does not have Sphinx compatibility so I guess that it really is an "inferior" as well.

But, either way, are you trying to say that vBulletin has less or more "work and features" than what "XF is currently dealing with"? And what does the number of people with credits in the the vB ACP have to do with anything? More hands in a product development does not mean by default it is a better product than others.

Just to sum this up.... people should pay more for vB5 because there is a chance it'll be improved in the next two years and, in the interim, they should use the older vB4 version with its inferior search since, after all, they have more people assigned to the project?
Well played sir.
  #210  
Old 26 Mar 2014, 22:43
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katie hunter katie hunter is offline
 
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Originally Posted by TheLastSuperman View Post
He's being blatantly honest by saying it still has its pros and cons and outlines one in his example above.
Mike, which was irrelevant if this is what he meant.. because we're not discussing the pros and cons of the Sphinx search. But what he said that was contradicting was "search under Sphinx on vbulletin.com is flat out terrible."

That didn't make any sense to me calling it flat out terrible. It appears that XF fans will go an extra mile or two to justify any answer. At the end of the day, we the customers will chose what is better, for XF fans not liking to hear the words "VB is better than XF" is absurd. They aren't being honest with themselves.

Originally Posted by KW802 View Post
Wait, we're talking about vB4 now? Wasn't your argument that vB5 is going to improve in the next two years and everybody was going to come back to it? Now you are back on vB4, which does not have Sphinx compatibility so I guess that it really is an "inferior" as well.

But, either way, are you trying to say that vBulletin has less or more "work and features" than what "XF is currently dealing with"? And what does the number of people with credits in the the vB ACP have to do with anything? More hands in a product development does not mean by default it is a better product than others.

Just to sum this up.... people should pay more for vB5 because there is a chance it'll be improved in the next two years and, in the interim, they should use the older vB4 version with its inferior search since, after all, they have more people assigned to the project?
You're proved your point already, your signature ---> (Sorry, but I am no longer developing for vB; please do not PM. So long, and thanks for all the fish.)

You're taking our conversation from VB 5.x then to VB 4.x and back to 5.x . The bottom line here is both VB 5.x and XF needs at least 1 to 2 years to shape up better and in the meantime VB 4.x is the better option at the current time.

This is my opinion, you can't change it. I already said, last time i checked, the newest version of Xenforo 1.3, kier was talking about functions that VB has - Spoiler and Multiple Quote http://vimeo.com/84587188 These guys are still trying to add all of VB default functions. How are you trying to convince many that XF is better than VB 4.x when we know the truth.

Are we done here?

I actually do recall your name from Vbadvance if i am not mistaken. It is a shame that Kier and Mike dragged the VB community into this while laughing in the background at many of you. But that won't matter, times will prove which product is better and most importantly which company behaves better toward customers or non customers.

Last edited by katie hunter; 26 Mar 2014 at 22:53.
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