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  #136  
Old 14 May 2006, 11:38
TeaTree TeaTree is offline
 
Join Date: May 2005
Originally Posted by Erwin
I think people need to understand one thing - staff here at vB.org are ALL volunteers (with the exception of Wayne and Zachery who are both official Jelsoft employees). The rest of us, including Brad, Xenon and myself, are volunteers - we do not get paid. The turn-around and support at vB.com is better because the staff there are PAID staff - it's their job.

vB.org is my hobby - it's not my job - neither is it the job of any of the mods here who do this in their own time after their studies, or their day jobs.

Scott is right in saying that this site is big enough to have paid staff to run it like vB.com. More needs to be invested into this site - Marco and others who are coding the Hack Database all have their own lives to live - you cannot expect them to quit university and code the hack databse 24 hours a day for the benefit of people and not get paid for it. That makes sense right?

I would like the coders here not to take their frustrations out on the staff here - they are coders like you too, and they don't get paid for all they do in the background, so have a bit of understanding.

There are many things that are out of vB.org staff hands - we try our best, but things like a paid directory is something we have brought up with Jelsoft again and again and it's not up to us to make the final decision.

If you expect professional staff here at vB.org, then tell Jelsoft to hire professional people. Staff here are just enthusiasts of vB, just like you. We are no better, we are no worse.

Of course, all of us want to see this site improve, so let's remain constructive in this thread, and instead of looking at problems, let's look at possible solutions.
That is a brilliant point
  #137  
Old 14 May 2006, 12:08
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stinger2 stinger2 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
since this thread turned to constructive one....i feel happy...but can i ask every one NOT to call user's(customers)..as leechers.........it would be the first producet in the world where customers are called so...
  #138  
Old 14 May 2006, 12:52
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Revan Revan is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Real name: Fillip
I apologise if I offended someone with the usage of that term. I swear I didn't mean any offense. I merely found it a shorter term than putting "users that do not contribute to the community in way of hacks" in every other sentence
  #139  
Old 14 May 2006, 13:31
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hambil hambil is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Real name: Hambil
Originally Posted by Tony G
It shouldn't be suprising that people might be coding for the status or the money. They want something in return. It's nice to have pure intentions but not everyone has them.
The desire to eat is not a pure intention? Give me a break.
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  #140  
Old 14 May 2006, 13:53
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stinger2 stinger2 is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Originally Posted by Revan
I apologise if I offended someone with the usage of that term. I swear I didn't mean any offense. I merely found it a shorter term than putting "users that do not contribute to the community in way of hacks" in every other sentence
thank you sir ......for this nice attitude.....
again contribution can also be giving feedback, reporting bugs, trying the hacks, giving suggestions for good hacks....

its one circle that should not break....
product+support+customers+feedback+coders====> new product and so on

Last edited by stinger2; 14 May 2006 at 14:13.
  #141  
Old 14 May 2006, 14:04
Thanatos Thanatos is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
You know...its all really kinda funny.

I'm one of those 99% here. I'm a nobody when it comes to coding. I bought books, read through them, but just don't 'get it'. I can hack around with code a bit to make it work with my forums or so I can figure out where stuff is broken so I can come back here and search for the problem or plead for help in fixing it.

All of you people who code just amaze me. I'm not a dumb fellow, I set up advanced networks, configure routers and firewalls, set up custom routing solutions for load balancing, build networks from the computers up...but I simlpy lack that creative spark that lets me code something cool. I come here and read the hacks that people come up with and post and am just amazed. I don't use them all, but I use like 4 pages worth of y'alls codes on my forums.

Now, that being said, as a generalization, all of us who can't code here have gotten a bit of the cold shoulder before and become frustrated over it. Being told to go learn coding for yourself just isn't helpful (and yeah, I've been told that before, especially in the older days). I'm very appreciative of some of the ways this foum has changed, where its become easier to get "plugins" for our forums and how its become modular so if something breaks, we can troubleshoot easier by turning all the plugins off and then on one at a time to figure out which two don't play nice. I've noticed as well, that because of this, stuff has gotten fixed or made more compatible more quickly and I see fewer of the posts where people are told to go figure it out themselves.

I think that sometimes, all you people forget what its like to be on the bottom of the barrel and reliant on someone elses talents. Yes, we paid for a commercial product -- but alot of us paid because we came here and saw YOU guys and gals and your code releases.

I've paid for some people to help me fix stuff before and paid for a code addon or two, but I'd just move away to a free product if everyone started charging for their hacks -- there are too many nice and competitive alternatives these days in the free side, then to have to put up with everyone getting upset and taking their toys and going home. You coders make vbulletin worth the money and when you leave the community, you not only hurt yourselves (because fewer people will end up supporting paid hacks in the long run), but you hurt others in the long run -- the ones at the mercy of your missing or now commercialized talent (and that goes for anyone who releases cool code, not just the master coders or the coding staff).

And for the record, I have helped a bit here and there when I could, but its rare that I can, I'm not 100% a leech just mostly one. But I appreciate all of you guys. I also know that the people here have their hands ultimately tied down by the people over at vb.com and they aren't the most receptive to change and new ideas....but I've been here a long time, like alot of you and I have seen alot of changes...I have seen them eventually concede and change a few things here.

So, from someone not inbroiled in the politics around here, here's my 2 coppers worth. Stop threating to take your ball away and go home...its not an us vs them, be that coders vs non-coders, staff vs members or anything else...if there is going to be improvment here, the staff and the lead members of the community all need to put aside differences and see if things can be worked out and improved, and if someone's hands are tied, stick it on the table for review in 6 months...Everyone's just too passionate about all of this and all that does is making working out dreary details difficult.

Well, thanks for listening.
  #142  
Old 14 May 2006, 15:23
EricaJoy EricaJoy is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
+1 to everything in Thanatos' post.

I love the coders here. THEY are the reason I keep coming back to vb.org, not that you all aren't charming but I don't stay around for the sparkling conversation.
  #143  
Old 14 May 2006, 16:00
Danecookie Danecookie is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: France
oh ca'mon '.'

things are not in order here i guess.
  #144  
Old 14 May 2006, 16:20
Logikos Logikos is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Originally Posted by Dean C
Maybe you should reconsider and explain why I dislike you and came down on you like a ton of bricks Ken, before you namedrop.
Dean, you dislike me because I ripped off a style years ago and took it down. You tried everything in your power to get me banned. Even Jelsoft denied your request to ban me. The funny thing about you is, you tried to get me banned over ripping a style that had nothing to do with vBulletin. It was a designing site and Jelsoft saw that it had nothing to do with them. I had my licenses, and I didn't break any of the Jelsoft TOS. It's sad that you still have this personal vendetta agaist me, but the best thing vBulletin.org did was demote you. I think alot of thst staff here agree to, but I can't speak for all of them. Just some of them that I've spoken to.

@Floris
Thank you for your comments and letting us know what is going on. I think that main problem with this community is that Jelsoft doesn't get invloved in it. I belive that the 'gap' between the two communities could be even smaller if Jelsoft got invloved in the vBOrg community somehow.

I'm going to post the idea I have in mind that could help bring back the modivation coders once had in the coders forum, when I get back home.
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  #145  
Old 14 May 2006, 16:22
jilly jilly is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Real name: jilly
Just for the record, i wish i could code. I'm like Thanatos. I tried, and just can't get it. If I could, and could envision hacks, I'd make some and release them when I had time. But I can't. My talents lie in other places. So I click install, I appreciate, I try to remember to always say thank you, and if people want to sell me a branding free option I buy it.

So I'm a 'user' here, and that's all I can be.

Livewire said:
The community here gives nothing back to the people who spend hours beyond hours coding something that will never make them a dime.


What does this mean? Are you talking about people like me, who use the hacks and install them? Those of us who just can't code? Are we the 'community' who is giving nothign back?
What else do you want me to do? I click install, I say thank you, I pay when I can or it's suggested. There's nothing else I am supposed to do, or CAN do, as far as I can see. Am I misunderstanding this comment? What kind of 'give back' do you want from us 'users' in the 'community'?
I just don't understand...
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(alphabetically) My Hacker Heros - Thank You Coders!! Your hard work and creativity is appreciated!
Abe1 - Andreas - Calorie - CMX_CMGSCCC - Cyb - Darkwaltz4 - Mosh - MrZeropage - Oblivion Knight - Paul M. - Phalynx - PixelFX - Psionic Vision - randominity - Sabret00the - tamarian - tehste - Tygertyger - Zachariah - Zero Tolerance
  #146  
Old 14 May 2006, 16:40
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Dean C Dean C is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Real name: Dean Clatworthy
Originally Posted by LiveWire
Dean, you dislike me because I ripped off a style years ago and took it down. You tried everything in your power to get me banned. Even Jelsoft denied your request to ban me. The funny thing about you is, you tried to get me banned over ripping a style that had nothing to do with vBulletin. It was a designing site and Jelsoft saw that it had nothing to do with them. I had my licenses, and I didn't break any of the Jelsoft TOS. It's sad that you still have this personal vendetta agaist me, but the best thing vBulletin.org did was demote you. I think alot of thst staff here agree to, but I can't speak for all of them. Just some of them that I've spoken to.
I don't even know where to begin in breaking down what you just said. But again you're speaking as if you know staff procedures, and I'm not in any position to divulge them. But I digress, it was illegal what you did and wrong, and I hold no personal vendetta against you at this time.
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  #147  
Old 14 May 2006, 16:47
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Paul M Paul M is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Real name: Paul M
Dean/Livewire, please move on from old differences.

Jilly, I don't think Livewire means you personally in his posts

Many members hear do thank coders, either by clicking 'install' or by posting a note in the hacks. I could show you threads full of them - but there are also many who do not - they come, they take, they leave - or worse, they come, they take, they moan it's not quite what they want, or they can't follow (simple) instructions. Those are the people who spoil it, and make you wonder if it was worth it - and they seem to be growing in number.

On a totally different subject - a thing that bugs me sometimes is the secrecy and stuff that is sometimes fed to us. When a suggestion is made, or a question is asked - it is refused or fobbed off with the most obviously bullshit reasons. People can see through these and get annoyed / heated.
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  #148  
Old 14 May 2006, 17:01
jilly jilly is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Real name: jilly
Originally Posted by Paul M
but there are also many who do not - they come, they take, they leave - or worse, they come, they take, they moan it's not quite what they want, or they can't follow (simple) instructions. Those are the people who spoil it, and make you wonder if it was worth it - and they seem to be growing in number.
Hmmm...
Maybe there could be a way to change it, so you can't get to the files to download UNTIL you click install or do something else that indicates you have or are going to install it. And make no 'uninstall' button available, so people can't maliciously come back and click 'uninstall' just to be mean. There could be a way to remove it from your list of installed hacks in your user cp, but no way to publicly 'diss' the hack by clicking uninstall.

It's already good that the hack authors can see who has clicked install. Maybe there is a way to make it so a user can't post in a hack's thread, unless he has clicked the install button or somehow been 'verified' as having installed it.

Maybe they could also start a policy of if a person is moaning or complaining in a support for a hack thread, or being rude or ungrateful, that their post gets deleted (lol). Then they can rephrase what they said, or figure it out themselves
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(alphabetically) My Hacker Heros - Thank You Coders!! Your hard work and creativity is appreciated!
Abe1 - Andreas - Calorie - CMX_CMGSCCC - Cyb - Darkwaltz4 - Mosh - MrZeropage - Oblivion Knight - Paul M. - Phalynx - PixelFX - Psionic Vision - randominity - Sabret00the - tamarian - tehste - Tygertyger - Zachariah - Zero Tolerance
  #149  
Old 14 May 2006, 17:02
hotwheels hotwheels is offline
 
Join Date: May 2005
Real name: Doug
Well i guess i will put in my .02 at this point........That last post that livewire posted is my biggest concern, Post is here ........I have only been messing around with php coding for a short while and it has moved in leaps and bound's in the last year. It is amazing what can be done now with this code to make a website owner's site something enjoyable to his/her user's.
One thing i have noticed though is, anytime someone tries to help improve a code, or help update a code.....People come out of the woodwork to be sure and let the person know that they in No way, had the right to improve the code, or should they take any credit for helping with the rewritting of the code. If you look back over the last few months, it seem's that alot of the younger up and coming coder's who try to show the community something kewl they figured out could be done to better another code, the bashing begins.....I try to be positive about the situation and give kudo's to the person for their attempt at learning php and giving back to the community and whether i am right or wrong, i feel it take's everyone to use, improve, comment, find bug's, etc..in coding.
I can only speak for me, but i havent' offered any code back to the community for this reason. At first i was excited to see a program i was messing with work and work nicely at that. But after seeing little comment's from people about stealing code or you shouldn't be messing with that code, etc......I backed off on helping improve the hack for the community.....I will even share the hack i was working with, and even though the owner of the code said we could try to keep it functioning, my fear of being bashed around here kept me from sharing it with others.
Back in january of 06 when alot of us moved from 3.0 to 3.5, we found alot of the mods we were using, no longer functioned. One of my first attempt's at helping was to tackle the timeslip database program My attempt , which i started to try to release bit's and piece's of the mod's i had made to the coding. Shortly thereafter, i recieved a couple pm's telling me i could not release another's code without his permission. With out wanting to get into the he said she said, i backed off and removed my zip from the site. The person's that emailed me, without looking fully into the author's post where he clearly stated that it was okay to start trying to modify his code, since he was no longer going to support it. I personally even recieved help from several other coder's to help expidite the hack's progress and publish to the user's of vbulletin.org......but with my lack of understanding all of the rule's that are within this site, this is what i had to do remove code ........which in my personal opinion was a shame. It left me feeling that coding could only be done by certain people, and that i shouldn't be offering up my attempt's to help improve what are already great hacks.

I guess instead of me rambling on, i just want the coder's that are currently here to know that i for one appreciatet them and i am sorry that people continue to bash and criticize your work. I for one, with my limited knowledge, have tried to give back and help take some of the wieght off your shoulders. I hope this entire issue can be addressed in a positive way. Right now, it seem's we are still headed down a negative road.....and hopefully vbulletin.org can come up with some time to start adding area's and suggestion's to and within the site..........


Doug (hotwheels)
  #150  
Old 14 May 2006, 21:25
Mark.B Mark.B is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
I think you've got to look at what the users' attitude to coders is. Some are rude I agree, but that's part and parcel of any forum sadly.

However, there are many, many of us who religiously click the install buttons, search the threads for answers before posting, thank the coders etc etc.

Personally I rarely have to post in hack threads, as by the time I come to install it, any question I might have is already answered.
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