[Boofo]

Originally Posted by The Geek

I should have known that celebrating coders here was a prediction that would never happen. Now I've got confirmation from one of the ol boys club that its so

Once again, as usual, you twist a statement to suit your needs. You never seem to disappoint me in the predictability department.

[Zachery]

I would like to take the moment to set the record straight for any of you I might have offended. I have the utmost respect for every person on this site who has taken the time to help someone, write a line of code, or done a good deed just by pointing someone in the right direction. The fact of the matter is every year coders come and go. No one really notices most of the time. I'm really sad to see anyone leaving this site for whatever reasons. I personally don't think that Ken (Livewire) went about this in the best way. I know he will be missed by quiet a few people here. I've personally never got to know him so I've got nothing to say about him one way or another. But I don't remember such a huge outburst when others left the community, or possibly faded away.

Lots of the current problems as everyone sees here now are due to a lack of community participation. Not everyone who is getting something is attempting to give something back.

Now I need to be off to my girlfriends graduation.

[The Geek]

Thats a little hypocritical isn't it?

You never fail to disappoint me in the 'where can I find a good curmudgeon?' department?

This site isn't run or directed by the community. Its directed by an ol boys club that:
1- Disregards ideas outside their own circle
2- Resists change not instigated by the inside circle
3- Dismisses contributers to the site (customers)

You should be embarrassed to imply that the people who actually release work on here for your customers are easily replaced.

They are the community. Not you.

[Zachery]

Originally Posted by The Geek

Thats a little hypocritical isn't it?

You never fail to disappoint me in the 'where can I find a good curmudgeon?' department?

This site isn't run or directed by the community. Its directed by an ol boys club that:
1- Disregards ideas outside their own circle
2- Resists change not instigated by the inside circle
3- Dismisses contributers to the site (customers)

You should be embarrassed to imply that the people who actually release work on here for your customers are easily replaced.

They are the community. Not you.

I can't say any one word of that is true.

[Boofo]

Originally Posted by The Geek

Thats a little hypocritical isn't it?

Only is the hypocrisy is true, as in this case.

You never fail to disappoint me in the 'where can I find a good curmudgeon?' department?

You've resorted to name calling and using age as a weapon. Predictability and immaturity both win this time.

I'm trying to understand this, but I really can't.

People are stating that vBulletin.org is going in a bad direction...so they leave the forums and abandon all their hacks. This all seems a little hypocritical to me. You state you want a change for the better on vbulletin.org, but you leave which is only causing more trouble, uproar, and negative outbursts.

I just saw another thread in the Lounge Forums stating that coders should "walk out", until things are changed. In my opinion, this is not the way to get things to change.

The staff listens to every single suggestion that is posted in the Feedback forum. And a lot of these suggestions are in the process of being implemented. But to think that every single suggestion here could be implemented (and implemented quickly) is nonsensical.

As for the coders, I respect every single coder on this forum. I know the dedication and talent all of you posses and I would hate to see any of you leave as you're all a significant part of the community.

In my opinion the decline of vbulletin.org is on everyone’s part. It’s just one big cycle that has caused the community to lose the values it once had; where every member respected one another.

Regular members make negative demands/comments on hacks -> Coders get frustrated and lose respect for regular members and decide not to help people -> everyone is now aggravated and create threads like these.

Next time you see a thread asking for help? Help them! Next time you install hack? Thank the author for their hard work!

This alone will begin to improve the community.

And I just want to restate this fact, despite being repetitious because it’s important; the staff takes every single suggestion into consideration. If the suggestion is a good idea, and it’s possible we suggest plans of implementation and then we begin the actual process of getting it implemented. This process may take a long time, but it does happen.

Personally, I’ve tried my very best to be kind, courteous, and friendly to every single member on vbulletin.org. I know there have been times when I’ve made unjust outbursts to members, but I’ve apologized to them afterwards every single time. If you feel you’ve been treated unfairly, just confront the staff member or one of the Administrators in a private message and it will be worked out.

And finally, I apologize for this very long post.

[Floris]

Whee, what a big thread - and not unique in its' kind.

** Edit out, MarcoH64 **

I will say this as a staff member: I am not too happy to see how things are going and will point this thread out to a few other Jelsoft staff members and the cross site manager. Just a FYI.

[libertate]

I hate to say this, but this is nothing new...

I stopped coding 20 years ago because I was also burned out from constant demand and no positive feedback. (This is back in the BBS/freenet/ freeware/shareware era.)

The reality is that users will be just that - USErs...

Programmers will come and go. Some will become commercial like you hope to, some will fade into oblivion (like me).

If you code to get some appreciation back then you will be, and as it seems, sorely disappointed, as many have before you.

You have to learn to code for the pure pleasure of coding.

I couldn't.

I do still apreciate a finely written code - and give cudos where it is due - but is it enough? Is it ever enough?

[Logikos]

Why was this thread moved?

The Lounge - Sit back in your lazy-boy recliner and chat away. This forum intends to host any kind of chat except vbulletin and hacking issues!

Site Feedback
Please let us know what you think about us in here!

This is bullshit. You move the thread here so it doesn't get the attention is deserves. I'm asking that this thread get moved to the proper place, please.


[edit]----------------------------[/edit]

Originally Posted by Zachery

Titles mean nothing

Thanks, the one thing vBulletin.org does gives us means nothing. Well let me tell you something. When I first joined here, the title meant alot to me. Not because of some line of text, because it meant that I took my time out to create work for a community and I would be rewarded with a title. It's the only thing that seperates the users and coders. Nothing agaist the users who don't code, if it wasn't for them. I wouldn't have ever made the master title. To simply throw out the only thing you give coders is a disgrace. I wear my title proudly, and I think I deserve to also. As any other coder does to.

Originally Posted by Zachery

On the subject of users leaving, everytime one person leaves, a few more will come and take their place.

Don't you see.. THATS THE PROBLEM!!!!! you can't look at this community in that aspect. Maybe if things changes around here, you wouldn't have to worry about coders leaving and new coders coming in. You would simply get old coders staying and new coders coming and older and newer coders working together. Which means what? MORE CODERS vs Users.

and just for the record. EVERY hack listed on my profile was not coded for me. I don't use ANY of my hacks listed in my profile. There simply there for others.

[Tralala]

Originally Posted by The Geek

This site isn't run or directed by the community. Its directed by an ol boys club that:
1- Disregards ideas outside their own circle
2- Resists change not instigated by the inside circle
...

I'm relatively new here and doing my best to learn, show my appreciation, and become a contributor. I've read, read, and read some more... answer as many questions that I can, and I've recently released my first hack.

I will say that I have noticed the behavior/attitude that The Geek has referenced above.

There's a palpable sense of one-upmanship and "powertrippiness" going on here, and I often see it coming from the mods. If a new idea to improve the forum (in terms of function, utility or design) is floated by a coder or a member, it's shot down immediately, which puts the suggesting party on the defensive. Then others have to come forth and "lobby" for the idea, and then the mods (sometimes) open their eyes and actually read/think about the request before discussing it rationally. I can think of a few threads as an example of this, but I'll leave those out for now, so we can focus on "the bigger picture."

I suppose this sort of clash is inevitable when you gather a bunch of alpha-geeks, who all enjoy the power associated with running their own forums. I do think the forum as a whole would benefit if everyone took a deep breath and got over themselves for a bit.

Hambil's suggesting a "Codeout" here. I think the lines of dialog need to open up; the folks feeling disaffected should gather their thoughts to determine what specifically it is they want, and what they expect. And they need to be realistic.

Hoping for "attitudes to change" won't do anything. Concrete requests should be made so concrete changes can happen.

Just my $0.02.

[Code Monkey]

Originally Posted by Zachery

I work my ass off on my hacks here and I'm not paid for it, my vB.org time is not reembursed with money, but with the users I educate. If I can walk away educating a few users every day on how to code, even if its as simple as html I've done my job.
I have a problem with the coders who are here for their own personal agendas and reasons.

Translation. You have a problem woth the coders who's agenda's don't line up with your agenda. Everyone has an agenda, everyone.

[Bubble #5]

Originally Posted by Zachery

They are not, they are just part of the community

This is the kind of disrespect toward the coders that will eventually implode a site like this, and eventually vB itself. The coders here are not "just part" of the community, they're key framework that a community like this is built upon. Do you think your house would be standing for very long if you removed its framework? Likewise, if you're going to be so cavalier about an important issue such as this, then all of us paying customers will just make some popcorn and watch this site, and ultimately vB's sales, sink like the Titanic. It seems to me that the decision makers of the Titanic once thought that they were unstoppable to.

the other 99.99% of the users on this site are its lifeblood.

Talk about putting the cart before the horse. Why do you think that people come here in the first place? Here's a clue; remove all of the hacks that are here, prevent any new ones from being posted, and you'll soon learn what most of us vB customers already know.

One coder does not make or break this site

I agree, one single coder does not make or break this site. However when it's one coder after another, after another, then like Chinese water torture all of the good coders will have left and gone somewhere else. Now all of a sudden it's a totally different issue. Sounds to me like you think this is a power struggle. It isn't. The coders are doing this in part because they are not given the respect that they are rightfully due. A good leader would seize a situation like this and use it as an opportunity to make this site better, not pour more salt on its wounds. I agree with you that there are a few coders that have used this site as a stepping stone for their own benefit, but we are not talking about those coders. Certainly LiveWire is not one of those coders. He has bent over backwards here and at other sites to help vB customers when his only benifit is knowing that someone who needed help received it. As a customer he has helped me when vB staff has not. It's disturbingly sad that you can't realize what an asset he is here. No doubt he will certainly be missed by the vB customers here.

If EVERY signle person on this forum up and left, it'd be a differnt story.

Well there's an obvious statement I'll even go one better. If people stop having a reason to come here it will adversely effect vB as a company. Here's an example for you. I was about to buy another copy of Vb next month. However, because of all of the cavalier comments like the one that you made above toward the coders here, I will not. That money will now stay in my pocket until I, as a paying customer, can be reassured that the product that I'm paying for is going to be supported by the "coding community". Like most customers I do not have the ability to code very well, which is why I appreciate it so much when others who can code, donate their time and their hacks to a site like this. I didn't buy vB just for its default features, I bought it because of its expandability, but when you think about it all forum software is expandable, and upon closer inspection it's really the caliber of the coding community here that make the big difference. Simply put; No good hacks - no reason for people to buy this software over Invision (or any other brand) that IS supported by a solid coding community. I think most resonable people would agree that if it wasn't for a site like this, that vB wouldn't be so appealing, and you can paint it any way that you want, but the bottom line is that this site is only as good as its coders. It appears to some of us as customers that the higher-ups at vB can't make that fundamental connection. I can't begin to tell you how surprised (and disappointed) I am to learn that fact. One way or another this site will ultimately be shaped through decisions that ultimately shape its environment. I think an open thread like this one is very important. Constructive criticism may not be easy to read, but it is necessary. It fulfils the same function as pain in the human body. It calls attention to an unhealthy state of things, and as we all know when something unhealthy is ignored, its potential to die increases. If all the good coders leave this site then you don't have to be a psychic to know where that will lead. I love vB, I really do, and I hope that they take one step back and realize just how important having good coders here is.

[AWS]

Sorry to see any person that contributes as much as you do leave the community.
The points you raise are valid and have been for a while now. There are staff members that are genuine and I beleive do have community interest in mind. There are others that have God complexes and show it every time they post.
It is sad that the attitude of a few are driving away the backbone of this site. I hope that once Floris brings this to the attention of Wayne that wholesale changes are made. As someone else said in this thread, if the coders leave the site will die.

[The Geek]

Originally Posted by Boofo

You've resorted to name calling and using age as a weapon. Predictability and immaturity both win this time.

The only thing predictable round these parts is the lack of change and the fact that as soon as I post - you pop in your two bits in any attempt you can to 'discredit me'. Boofo is the anti geek!

If all suggestions are taken on board, what about the commercial hack directory or the hack database? There has been little more than peeps on these points.

Anyhooo, reserve the next post for Boofo. He'll be killing himself to respond.

[Logikos]

Sorry Geek, I butted in

Anyways, Bubble #5. I really appriacte the support. It means alot to me to know that my work here is appreciated from everyone here.

I didn't create this thread to stir things up, or tick the staff off. I had to state that obvious things going on around here. I had to tell .org what I think about the site. [cough]Thats why this was in the feedback forum[/cough]. If you want to try and start to changes things. There here are a few suggestions from me.

• I personally would organize the forums alittle diffrently. It seems very cluttered at the moment, at least to me it does. (thats just something small)
• Create a forum structure for coders. Allow our involment in what gets implamented and what shouldn't. Not saying we should have the final say, but at least allow use to have an area where staff and coders can chat about the future things that can be implamented.
  
  Then when 1 idea gets implamented. Instead adding it to a todo list for one of the staff members to handle, we should have a forum that coders can access to help create and code the project. Kinda like a vBulletin.org develoment team.
  
• stop keeping everything such a secret to the community. God forbid if someone knows the values for certain titles. Everyone knows now since it has been changed.
• create a release forum that would host big projects coded by many coders here on vb.org
• setup a donation hack that allows users to donate to authors if they want to. When a user donates any ammount, allow that user to have a icon in that hack that showing that they have contribuate to the coder via donation

These are just a few examples I had in mind. There are others, but my post is getting long enough for me, and frankly I rather not waste my time trying anymore. You say that coders leaving will only make the situation worst. Your absolutely 100% correct. Though, after dealing with it for so long, you simply give up trying.

I tried to be helpful here http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showp...4&postcount=10 but my post was ignored. The original thread was posted over a month ago and has yet to be fixed. I posted the code to correct this issue but nothings been done. If we had something like the above mentioned features, things like that wouldn't happen as often, and coders wouldn't be leaving the site or starting a petition.