Register Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #31  
Old 26 Mar 2004, 18:03
filburt1 filburt1 is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Originally Posted by exasko
Am I missing something?
US copyright law is the prohibiting factor here, not vB.org rules, and there isn't a thing that can be dnoe about that.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 26 Mar 2004, 18:18
Osterling Osterling is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Originally Posted by zsdave
I'm new to vb.org and new to vb but I do feel that vb.org needs real change, it is a major asset to vb and part of the reason so many users are attracted to vb and compelled to renew their license.

Hackers vs Hackers: Does anyone here copyright php code? Does anyone fork out 300-400 to copyright an open source hack? "Ownership" of hacks should be changed - aslong as credit is given where credit is due - anyone should be allowed to modify code and release it, I'm not saying take hack x call it hack y and release it, I mean; if the way the hack runs is significantly improved or changed why cant it be shared on vb.org? What's the problem? If as a hack creator you dont like this simply take your code down to the copyright offices and get it copyrighted.

Recent example:
I created a shoutbox addon for vbindex (it adds a shoutbox to the forum home display and also adds top 10 shouters and number of shouts a member has made)
Some of the queries where the same as those via the original vbindex code, have you not heard the expression: Don't reinvent the wheel. The addon did use a large amount of code from vbindex but it was an addon and credit was given, still NTLDR removed the addon. I released this because, I wanted it so I figured someone else may want it. That should be the reason hacks are released. (Unless someone wants a hacker to make a hack)
My addon added atleast 4 major things: shoutcounter, forum home display, forum home shout adding, top ten shouters. It is absurd to remove an addon which adds something just because someone else made it using some of your code.

Hackers Attitude:
This leads on to overall hackers attitude to eachother and to non hackers:
  • hackers are not on a higher level of existence
  • hackers should all work to one goal: to further improve vbulletin by releasing addons
  • hacks do not compete for members to use them
  • hack counts aren't important
Not sure why some hackers think the above things are not true. But, sad as it is, people can be like that.

support
I enjoy supporting my hack(s), however frustrating, it gives ideas for improvement, bugfixes and improves the community feel of vb.org. Some hackers don't like to support their modifications, and that's fair. Hacks are released under no obligation or warranty, I don't think anyone has the right to complain or demand anything from anyone on this forum.

Basicly I agree with the first post:

- hacks should not have strict ownership aslong as credit is given. Hackers are working together not in competition. Ok it's a male dominated community but why compete over something so pointless.

- vb.org needs to address this issue, the forum does need opening so that there is a clear catagory to talk about making mods and hack in progress areas and other such stuff...
Very Well Said
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 26 Mar 2004, 18:22
Geographic2 Geographic2 is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
I can point out a few GPL packages that people have developed a bit and are now putting this "everythingVB hack" license on.

[quote]
FullAttribution.
You must give the original author credit, visibly on your site.

LimitedDerivs.
You may make derivative works, but you must contact the original author before releasing your alterations.

LimitedTranslation.
You may translate this Hack, but you must contact the original author before releasing your translation.
[quote]

If your hack is on a GPL base the hack must also be GPL am I correct?


PS - WHile you mods and admins are floating round,
when my vb members area access expires on my owned license do I lose access to vb.org?

Am I missing something too?

Last edited by Geographic2; 26 Mar 2004 at 18:35.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 26 Mar 2004, 22:19
Chris M's Avatar
Chris M Chris M is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Real name: Chris Murphy, BSc
Originally Posted by zsdave
I'm new to vb.org and new to vb but I do feel that vb.org needs real change, it is a major asset to vb and part of the reason so many users are attracted to vb and compelled to renew their license.

Hackers vs Hackers: Does anyone here copyright php code? Does anyone fork out 300-400 to copyright an open source hack? "Ownership" of hacks should be changed - aslong as credit is given where credit is due - anyone should be allowed to modify code and release it, I'm not saying take hack x call it hack y and release it, I mean; if the way the hack runs is significantly improved or changed why cant it be shared on vb.org? What's the problem? If as a hack creator you dont like this simply take your code down to the copyright offices and get it copyrighted.

Recent example:
I created a shoutbox addon for vbindex (it adds a shoutbox to the forum home display and also adds top 10 shouters and number of shouts a member has made)
Some of the queries where the same as those via the original vbindex code, have you not heard the expression: Don't reinvent the wheel. The addon did use a large amount of code from vbindex but it was an addon and credit was given, still NTLDR removed the addon. I released this because, I wanted it so I figured someone else may want it. That should be the reason hacks are released. (Unless someone wants a hacker to make a hack)
My addon added atleast 4 major things: shoutcounter, forum home display, forum home shout adding, top ten shouters. It is absurd to remove an addon which adds something just because someone else made it using some of your code.

Hackers Attitude:
This leads on to overall hackers attitude to eachother and to non hackers:
  • hackers are not on a higher level of existence
  • hackers should all work to one goal: to further improve vbulletin by releasing addons
  • hacks do not compete for members to use them
  • hack counts aren't important
Not sure why some hackers think the above things are not true. But, sad as it is, people can be like that.

support
I enjoy supporting my hack(s), however frustrating, it gives ideas for improvement, bugfixes and improves the community feel of vb.org. Some hackers don't like to support their modifications, and that's fair. Hacks are released under no obligation or warranty, I don't think anyone has the right to complain or demand anything from anyone on this forum.

Basicly I agree with the first post:

- hacks should not have strict ownership aslong as credit is given. Hackers are working together not in competition. Ok it's a male dominated community but why compete over something so pointless.

- vb.org needs to address this issue, the forum does need opening so that there is a clear catagory to talk about making mods and hack in progress areas and other such stuff...
Firstly, what does a male dominated community have to do with anything? I fail to see the relevance of this gender bias in this debate...

Secondly, about NTLDR's actions - The vB.org rules state that you are not allowed to modify and/or release without prior consent from the original hack author... That means you should have asked NTLDR before releasing anything which uses code from vBindex...

Thirdly:
Does anyone here copyright php code? Does anyone fork out 300-400 to copyright an open source hack? "Ownership" of hacks should be changed - aslong as credit is given where credit is due - anyone should be allowed to modify code and release it, I'm not saying take hack x call it hack y and release it, I mean; if the way the hack runs is significantly improved or changed why cant it be shared on vb.org? What's the problem? If as a hack creator you dont like this simply take your code down to the copyright offices and get it copyrighted.
I think you will find, that if you check the copyright laws thoroughly, all of your works and ideas relating to your works, i.e. code and/or website designs etc, are actually Copyright the person who created them, without the need to "fork out 300 - 400"...

Check the "Copyright, Design and Patents Act of 1988" (in the UK) for more details...

And finally, please check the rules before you do something which the Mods must take action over - I understand you are new, but we have been abiding by the laws for some time now, and have come to accept them...

I feel it is always the newer members who never seem to get the idea of the history and former community of vB.org :ermm:

Satan
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 26 Mar 2004, 22:52
Wayne Luke's Avatar
Wayne Luke Wayne Luke is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Real name: Wayne
I, personally, have some ideas about this issue that can resolve some of the issues for future hacks and addons. I will discuss them with the staff here and we will see what kind of solutions we can come up with that will allow hack authors to retain their rights while allowing for abandoned ideas and projects to be picked up by interested developers.

Once that is done, any solutions will be made available to the community.
__________________
Wayne Luke
Get started with your own social network. Purchase and download vBulletin today.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 27 Mar 2004, 00:46
Osterling Osterling is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Originally Posted by Wayne Luke
I, personally, have some ideas about this issue that can resolve some of the issues for future hacks and addons. I will discuss them with the staff here and we will see what kind of solutions we can come up with that will allow hack authors to retain their rights while allowing for abandoned ideas and projects to be picked up by interested developers.

Once that is done, any solutions will be made available to the community.

thank you
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 27 Mar 2004, 05:08
Geographic2 Geographic2 is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Things will be alot better around here if we as hackers here had the attitude of sourceforge than the attitude of microsoft...
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 27 Mar 2004, 05:55
Velocd's Avatar
Velocd Velocd is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Real name: Mike
Yes, that would be ideal.

If the following is sort of off-topic, please pardon me, although it's on my mind and I thought I'd voice it.

Most developers at Sourceforge are quite skilled at their programming, and most hackers on these forums aren't. For this site, it creates an environment of amatuer competition, and people who don't like to share.

If vBulletin.org ever wanted to head into the cooperative haven that Sourceforge is, there would have to be an integrated way of creating hack projects. These could be threads, but instead of just containing the regular information of a hack, it contains the group members of the project, progress updates, etc. These threads could be located in a sub-forum maybe called "Unreleased Projects," or something to that flavor, and when the project is finished it can be moved into the actual hack forum for download.

I often see hack-project threads of 4 pages or more posted around where one individual introduces their hack-in-progress and people just talk about it for pages on. What I addressed above sounds like a more formal and effective way of going about things.

The best part of cooperative working, even if it's a group of somewhat inexperienced coders, is that people can help out on another and everyone can benefit and progress their skills.

To be honest though, no vBulletin hack is ever really that large for more than 1 person (that is, if that person is moderate experience in PHP). Still, it's an idea to consider.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 27 Mar 2004, 08:41
sabret00the's Avatar
sabret00the sabret00the is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Real name: sabe
i think that sums it up, along with Boofo's post about no one wanting to support their hacks anymore

re: filburts comment in reply to supporting hacks; i thought it was your duty as mod to try and get around where possible and offer support where needed across the whole forums, esepcially considering you're a super mod? (genuine question)

i think people really do need to calm down though, maybe going back to my idea about tick boxes, maybe people could tick "you're welcome to use this code in a non-competative hack as long as full credit it given where due"? it would solve so many problems.

as for the vBindex thing, i think it would've been seen as more acceptable if you released it as a find line XXX and and paste to line XXX or something like that, although being that it was actually an add-on i'm not sure what was the problem exactly.
__________________
UNDER CONSTRUCTION: Confessionary Hack

Make me a Hack of The Month author: GRPS: Groups Commune
make my hacks, they'll make you famous

unless it's a security concern, please do not pm/im me for support unless you're willing to pay.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 27 Mar 2004, 11:33
tehste's Avatar
tehste tehste is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Originally Posted by sabret00the
i think that sums it up, along with Boofo's post about no one wanting to support their hacks anymore

re: filburts comment in reply to supporting hacks; i thought it was your duty as mod to try and get around where possible and offer support where needed across the whole forums, esepcially considering you're a super mod? (genuine question)

i think people really do need to calm down though, maybe going back to my idea about tick boxes, maybe people could tick "you're welcome to use this code in a non-competative hack as long as full credit it given where due"? it would solve so many problems.

as for the vBindex thing, i think it would've been seen as more acceptable if you released it as a find line XXX and and paste to line XXX or something like that, although being that it was actually an add-on i'm not sure what was the problem exactly.
the problem was I didnt get permission to release an addon. From the original hack maker. Then when I asked for permission he denied it on the basis i used some of the vbindex code!

Also I'm pretty sure you cant *just* get a copyright without going to a licensing body and paying for the rights. A community simmilar to sourceforge would be much better. There is competition in a community where competition is not needed.

Cant people just work together?
__________________
P3tz.com: www.P3tz.com
Really cool virtual pets for your forum http://dev.p3tz.com
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 27 Mar 2004, 12:04
accyroy accyroy is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Originally Posted by hellsatan

I feel it is always the newer members who never seem to get the idea of the history and former community of vB.org :ermm:

Satan
Hmmm.. history? Sorry us new people wheren't around when vb.org was a community. Your one sentence there makes me feel that I do not want a part of this..
__________________
Accrington
Land Rover Forum
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 27 Mar 2004, 13:33
Xenon's Avatar
Xenon Xenon is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Real name: Stefan Kaeser
@zsdave: well, i'm sure law is different on each country, but i know for example in germany (where i live) code is copyrighted when you write it. There is no need to register your code somewhere.
Of course if it comes to court, it would be better if you have had it registred somewhere, but that's not needed in the first place. The copyright exist.
And from what i know, the international copyright law is quite the same.
So, vb.org cannot allow everyone to copy other's codes, as that would be an illegal action.

But as Wayne already said, we're currently discussing a way of allowing other hackers more, without getting in touch with illegal activities. Please bear with us

@Velocd: a very good idea, and already planned by myself.
With public usergroups this would be easy to achive, so if someone wants to found a "Hacking Team" with it's own subforum, they just have to contact me, and i'll create a usergroup and a subforum for them
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 27 Mar 2004, 14:28
Christine's Avatar
Christine Christine is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Real name: Christine. Really.
**Heartily applauds Boofo's comments in this thread**

I appreciate the Admin team looking into this. It is one thing to hold the original idea on something, but if someone wants to create an addon, isn't that what the addons forum is for?

On another note, I too was frustrated that a major hack that I had on vB2 isn't going to be released any time soon for vB3 (the author told me that he won't be upgrading until next year). Yes, I recoded it from scratch as the vB2 code wasn't even close in comparison to what is needed. I brought the queries down from 176 to 45 when I ported it, but I can't release it for others since I didn't write the original. The author has not responded to my PM offering to email him the hack .txt file so that he has a head start for his upgrade, so that is that. *shrugs*

I have what I need to go live this week on Gold (and I could care less about the testosterone influenced competition that permeates here), but there should be a way that folks aren't left in the cold on stuff like this.

Sorry Hellsatan, but it DOES seem like a competition more than a cooperative effort anymore.

I too wish we could get back to the old days of people releasing to contribute to the community and not to make a name for their username.

Microsoft vs Sourceforge, indeed.

</rant>

__________________
L'chaim
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 27 Mar 2004, 16:40
Xenon's Avatar
Xenon Xenon is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Real name: Stefan Kaeser
Well, if you have recoded it completely, without using the other hack's code, then there would be no problem for you to release it.

As stated: Ideas cannot be copyrighted, just code can.

But as said before, we're currently talking about those issues, and will post what we get, once we finished
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 27 Mar 2004, 20:58
Christine's Avatar
Christine Christine is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Real name: Christine. Really.
Don't mind me, Stefan -- I just needed to carp about something (anything) after manually redoing 150 FAQ items from one server to another today.



You guys do whatever you think is best for the community.

__________________
L'chaim
Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 06:53.

Layout Options | Width: Wide Color: