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  #46  
Old 27 Mar 2004, 22:23
TECK's Avatar
TECK TECK is offline
 
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Real name: Floren Munteanu
Originally Posted by exasko
I think vBulletin.org should email all members who have created a hack for vb2 and inform them that they only have two months to submit a working version of there hack for vb3. Because I feel like we are being cut out of hacks because you have creators who no longer care to work on there hacks. I have even talked to a few creators of hacks for vb2 and they said they have no time to create a working version for vb3, and then I ask them if it would be okay for another member to do it, and they said no.

Now this is really unfair, because they choose not to upgrade there hack, and we are stuck because the creator won’t let other members migrate the hack for vb3. I am wondering what vBulletin.org plans to do about this?
You cannot force someone to release a hack, or port it (by someone else) to a new version without author's explicit consent.
Is a copyright issue.
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  #47  
Old 28 Mar 2004, 02:42
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Kaelon Kaelon is offline
 
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You cannot force someone to release a hack, or port it (by someone else) to a new version without author's explicit consent.
Is a copyright issue.
Actually, while you obviously cannot force someone to release a hack, porting hacks to a new version does not require the original author's consent, considering that the hack itself is considered a derivative work from the original work, which is copyrighted by Jelsoft. So, this notion that you need the permission of the hack author, while noble, nevertheless has no legal standing, since the hack is derivative - that is, based off of the original work, and thus, owned in its entirety by Jelsoft.

Ultimately, the very fact that Jelsoft allows code hackers to make money by offering paid hacks is extremely generous, considering that all code that is derived from vBulletin is ultimately the legal province of Jelsoft.

For more information, you can confer with 17 USC 107 (United States Code), and the Berne Convention, which is the foundation for the International Copyright convention.
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  #48  
Old 28 Mar 2004, 04:07
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amykhar amykhar is offline
 
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Real name: Amy
Stepping in here because I absolutely MUST reply to these points:

* hackers are not on a higher level of existence
- agree totally. But, they ARE the focus of this site. This is a site for people who modify their vbulletin code. It is not a download site for free goodies. Everybody who posts at this site and everybody who downloads and installs a hack SHOULD be a coder - no matter how low the skill level. Otherwise, this community becomes nothing but a minority of contributing members and a majority of whining leaches and why in hell would the minority want to stick around and deal with whining? If you have absolutely no intention of ever learning how to write a line of PHP code or run a query, why should you expect somebody to take their time and do your work for you for free?. I don't know how to fix my car, and I'm not about to show up at your house and demand that you fix my brakes because you know how. You'd laugh your head off. Furthermore, if you were kind enough to explain to me the general principles behind fixing my brakes and point me towards manuals that would give me detailed instructions and I pitched a hissy fit because you didn't do it for me, you'd tell me to pound sand.

Coding is a skill. It is a skill that takes time and effort to learn. It doesn't make people any more special than somebody who takes the time to learn to sew, cook, repair cars, or paint pictures but it does mean that if you want me to use my skill to help you, you better have some manners.

(Please note I am using the word "you" in a general sense and am not addressing the original poster. I have no idea if he can code or not or if he ever pulls some of the stuff that drives the coders on this site absolutely batty)
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  #49  
Old 28 Mar 2004, 04:31
filburt1 filburt1 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Kaelon
Ultimately, the very fact that Jelsoft allows code hackers to make money by offering paid hacks is extremely generous, considering that all code that is derived from vBulletin is ultimately the legal province of Jelsoft.
Microsoft lets developers make programs for their OS...would that be generous?

Hacks are merely powered by vB when written correctly, and don't contain any vB code. In the case of vB3, even the instructions need not contain a mere snippet of vB code if the hack is authored correctly.
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  #50  
Old 28 Mar 2004, 05:44
13th_Disciple 13th_Disciple is offline
 
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i think you missed his point, amy.. a lot of the folks here do tend to put themselves above others because of their "1337 coding [email protected]".. two people in particular that i can think of and they have even posted in this very thread..

i am by no means a php guru, don't profess to be, and not sure if i want to be..

it's the over all attitude that is more than prevelant here.. the new folks see it, and it does nothing to help build any sort of user confidence or foster any type of user/member contributions when you are told not no but hell no every time you turn around..

very few people support new folks.. very few people here encourage new folks.. very few people support what it is they have.. now filburt says it's not his job.. well that may be all fine and dandy if stated, but some people say they will provide support and yet can't respond to their own threads when someone does need help..

tired of rambling.. sleep is a pillow away.. think i will wander in that general direction now.. but i will say, everyday that passes, you see the distance growing between this site and the so-called community it is supposed to support..
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  #51  
Old 28 Mar 2004, 06:12
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amykhar amykhar is offline
 
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Real name: Amy
I guess I'm just touchy on this subject right now. Nobody has the right to my brain or the code that I write. Now, there are Vbulletin 2 hacks I have written that I have no intention of supporting any more. I could delete them because I won't support them, but I prefer to leave the work so that other coders can use them as a baseline.

Why don't I support my version 2 hacks? Because I don't have a version 2 board any more, and I don't see it as my duty to keep it installed to answer questions. If I was a company support person, that would be unforgiveable. But I'm not. I'm a hobbyist. And doing something that is no fun is no way to pursue a hobby.

And, I'm not going to update most of my older hacks. Why? Because I no longer need the features those hacks provided. If I don't need the code, why would I take the time to write it, debug it, document it, and support it? I'd do it if a special friend asked me to, but not for any Joe Blow. Too many headaches involved.

If somebody were to say to me that they wanted to update one of my old hacks for VB3, I would say go for it. It's not an ego thing for me.

That said, if somebody were to take my code and re-release it with minor changes without my permission, I would have a fit. Why? Because it is a sign of disrespect. In a community such as this one, there have to be rules of etiquette. The rule about not pilching code is there because some hack authors release code for the joy of the recognition. Without that benefit, they wouldn't release code at all because there would be no fun in it. Allowing others to take code, tweak it a tiny bit, and then slap their name on it would drive the real hack-writers away.

Before you make any demands of hackers, please understand that hacking is our hobby, not our job. Making your site better is your responsibility, not ours. Fixing bugs in our released code is something we should do, but adding extra features, upgrading code to your version of vbulletin, etc. isn't something you should expect of us.

A hack is a gift from a coder to the community. When you receive a gift, you're not supposed to demand more of the giver.

Amy
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  #52  
Old 28 Mar 2004, 06:18
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Boofo Boofo is offline
 
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Real name: Rob
It's not just the new people who see this, it's the seasoned hackers that have been here for a while, too. And it isn't just the older board members giving the new people problems, it goes both ways. That's the problem we hope to fix here so we can all get back to what it used to be like around here. It's almost like a home where the kids are born into the family (in this case becoming a member of vb.org in the beginning) and then they start growing up (learning coding and being a part of the community for a while and actually learning and having fun) and then they grow up and want to leave home because they think they can't learn anymore here and the fun is starting to go all out of it. I, for one, have never stopped learning. And I'll be damned if anyone is going to stop me from having fun around here now.

We need to all step back and look at everything and start learning to compromise. The newbies as well as the hackers AND others who have been here a while. It's really very simple to fix if we're all willing to step in and give a hand in all of this. If we want this site to florish, then by God we need to start taking care of it and stopped all the squabbling back and forth about frivilous things that really don't matter in the scheme of things one way of the other. For every hacker that doesn't do his part like supporting his hacks or answering questions that come along, there are 2 that are doing just that trying to help when they can, where they can, and as often as they can. Don't worry about the ones that don't. They'll fade out and wither away. Appreciate the ones that do. And be thankful that we have a place we can come to and learn and have fun and who knows what else. Because I'm telling everyone now, and this is from 50 years of experience, you won't realize what you've lost or walked away from until it's gone and too damned late to do anything about it. And then it'll be, "you know, maybe there was something I could have done to help get vb.org back on the right track". If for no one else, do it for Chen, who worked his tail off (with others too many to mention) to make something of this place. We all worked at building something. Something that I was damned proud and still am to be a part of. Let's not tear it down any more than we already have. It's time for rebuilding, friendships as well as our home here.

Let's make this place better than it is right now and as good as it was, maybe even better. I'm game. Anyone else with me?

If you are with me, I swear, somehow, someway, I will help figure out a way we can all get involved and make this work. With Xenon's and Logician's help and guidance, how can we go wrong?

Last edited by Boofo; 28 Mar 2004 at 06:21.
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  #53  
Old 28 Mar 2004, 09:56
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Dean C Dean C is offline
 
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Real name: Dean Clatworthy
Whilst i've sat back and watched this discussion evolve it boils down to the simple points that someone has already mentioned. As stated in our footer all hacks are copyrighted to their authors. If you write the code yourself there's no problem as long as you don't copy bits of the source. If you take someone elses code, change it around a bit and modify the functions that is when you are breaking copyright laws. It's not too hard to understand surely

Even still, chances are that if someone is going to port over a hack they know enough PHP to write a version themselves.
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  #54  
Old 28 Mar 2004, 14:17
13th_Disciple 13th_Disciple is offline
 
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Originally Posted by amykhar
I guess I'm just touchy on this subject right now. Nobody has the right to my brain or the code that I write. Now, there are Vbulletin 2 hacks I have written that I have no intention of supporting any more. I could delete them because I won't support them, but I prefer to leave the work so that other coders can use them as a baseline.

Why don't I support my version 2 hacks? Because I don't have a version 2 board any more, and I don't see it as my duty to keep it installed to answer questions. If I was a company support person, that would be unforgiveable. But I'm not. I'm a hobbyist. And doing something that is no fun is no way to pursue a hobby.

And, I'm not going to update most of my older hacks. Why? Because I no longer need the features those hacks provided. If I don't need the code, why would I take the time to write it, debug it, document it, and support it? I'd do it if a special friend asked me to, but not for any Joe Blow. Too many headaches involved.

If somebody were to say to me that they wanted to update one of my old hacks for VB3, I would say go for it. It's not an ego thing for me.

That said, if somebody were to take my code and re-release it with minor changes without my permission, I would have a fit. Why? Because it is a sign of disrespect. In a community such as this one, there have to be rules of etiquette. The rule about not pilching code is there because some hack authors release code for the joy of the recognition. Without that benefit, they wouldn't release code at all because there would be no fun in it. Allowing others to take code, tweak it a tiny bit, and then slap their name on it would drive the real hack-writers away.

Before you make any demands of hackers, please understand that hacking is our hobby, not our job. Making your site better is your responsibility, not ours. Fixing bugs in our released code is something we should do, but adding extra features, upgrading code to your version of vbulletin, etc. isn't something you should expect of us.

A hack is a gift from a coder to the community. When you receive a gift, you're not supposed to demand more of the giver.

Amy
i don't think it's about name recognition.. i personally could careless who the hell creates a hack or supports it or rewrites it or installs it.. i think those that support their own hacks are admirable for doing so.. those that don't, it's their right.. with old hacks for older versions of vB.. i tthink everyone would agree that support, at some point, is depricated.. it's a given.. happens in every industry..

as far as those expecting support from all hackers, that i know of, i personally have never asked for help one single time on this or any other forum unless i started rehacking someone elses code and that has only been for vBindex from NTLDR and he has offered nothing but solid information and support.. not only that, the ability to do multiple vBindex pages will be in an upcoming version, which is something i was heavily requesting, as well as many others..

i think people often don't realize that there are a hell of a lot more of us out there not asking questions or for support or anything of the kind than there are that actually do.. i make no demands on anyone.. i realize all of this is free.. hell, i run dedicated servers, pay for that out of my pocket every month, pay for all software based costs on the server (only vB for now) and any associated costs to do whatever i want with the machine.. not to mention it occupies every minute of spare time i have.. i am also a single father of a 3 year old daughter.. i have time for nothing.. i do this for fun and the pleasure and all that happy horse ++++ like everyone else..

but i make myself available even for the most menial things that users of my server need.. i do all of that for free as well, free for those guys and gals, that is.. i understand the support deal.. but also understand, there are more of us transparent users that thank the hackers, click install and move along without taking up time..

i just would like to see the site back to as united as it was when i first started coming here long before i ever bought vB and even registered.. this place alone is one of the reasons many of us spent the bread for something we can equally get for free from many places now..

the community was tearing some then, but the page has been ripped from the book now.. also, it would also be nice if there was OPEN AND HONEST discussion allowed.. i personally saw nothing wrong with debating the vbhosting hack and it's issues with the LA.. but that is another story.. just allow for talk.. it hurt no one having that thread..
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  #55  
Old 28 Mar 2004, 17:03
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Kaelon Kaelon is offline
 
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Originally Posted by filburt1
Microsoft lets developers make programs for their OS...would that be generous?

Hacks are merely powered by vB when written correctly, and don't contain any vB code. In the case of vB3, even the instructions need not contain a mere snippet of vB code if the hack is authored correctly.
While perhaps generous was not the correct word, given that Microsoft - like Jelsoft - has a proprietary interest in allowing and encouraging derivative works of their primary products, the legal precedent is quite clear (cf. 17 USC 106(d)), in that any work that is "inspired" by another is considered a derivative, and the intellectual property of the creator and owner of the original work from which it is derived. Only when work that is inspired meets a carefully crafted set of four separate legal criteria (the "fair use" and "ex parte" tests, outlined in 17 USC 107) does it not fall under the legal ownership of the original creator of the work from which it is derived or inspired.

In the case of vBulletin hacks, the code is clearly derived from the vBulletin base code, specifically, in that it creates interoperability with the parent work. The law is very clear in that the intellectual property rights of the code belong to Jelsoft. Because Jelsoft has a prioprietary interest in enabling customers to customize their software - much like Microsoft has a proprietary interest to license and distribute dynamic linked libraries to enable interoperability with component software - it very rightly waives its intellectual property rights in these cases, if not explicitly, then certainly implicitly, which is sufficient to the letter of the law.

Other software companies are far less interested in encouraing innovation like Microsoft and Jelsoft -- such as Apple, which during the first decade of its operation, prohibited any software manufacturers from developing software for its hardware (since it was legally derived from the core product). Apple's product model was based upon the "cartridge" ideology. IBM and its "compatibility", which implicitly waived IBM's proprietary and legal rights to derivative or inspired works, nevertheless proved to be far more markettable, and led to its dominance in the industry.

I'm not saying that Apple or Microsoft were right or wrong in what they have done - but it's obvious that the successful strategy is one of promoting both derivative works, while retaining a considerable amount of control over quality and types of derivative works. Hence, licensing.
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  #56  
Old 29 Mar 2004, 18:11
noppid noppid is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Originally Posted by Geographic2
Things will be alot better around here if we as hackers here had the attitude of sourceforge than the attitude of microsoft...
That's just not gonna happen. Too much ego involved in most cases.

If I post code, I consider it gone and shared. It would be nice to have a credit in the comments if someone uses it, but who see's them anyway?

As for taking a hack cutting it up and making a new idea for your site. I don't think anyone can catch you. But posting it goes back to ego. You want to brag about your code. If hacking a hack gets what you want, keep it. I find this method of "sharing" pitiful, but as pointed out, they write it they own it.

It's an ego trip IMHO to claim ownership of a couple of lines that someone else could duplicate without ever seeing what someone else did. In the case of vB hacks it happens alot.

That brings us to owning an idea. If two folks have the same idea with different code, each should be able to post. That crap that one line of code was the same and you didn't have permission is BULL. Two people can come up with the same query or if() test and never have met in the vb world.

By the comments made so far by those in charge, this poster don't see change coming.

For instance One signature says don't even bother to ask to port my code. I don't see a way to recreate them without it being said it's a copy even if someone starts from scratch recreating one. The mods have final say and there no outside influence to control ego.

EDIT:
May I remind you all that this site is overseen by the same crowd that admits vB is a copy of an idea and now uses attornies to protect this same idea from others coping it. Go figure!
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Last edited by noppid; 29 Mar 2004 at 18:39.
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  #57  
Old 29 Mar 2004, 19:02
noppid noppid is offline
 
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To back up my accusations...

From http://www.olate.com/articles/15 An interview with Kier Darby of vBulletin
The very earliest (non-public) version of vBulletin was designed to be essentially UBB running with PHP and MySQL rather than Perl and flat-file storage.
Now jelsoft having lawyers look at a company because their BB looks like vB.
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showt...hlight=lawyers
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  #58  
Old 29 Mar 2004, 19:52
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Wayne Luke Wayne Luke is offline
 
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Real name: Wayne
Originally Posted by noppid
Now jelsoft having lawyers look at a company because their BB looks like vB.
http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showt...hlight=lawyers
Actually, any such look at this will be within the copyrighted code and not based on look and feel. Just because lawyers will be looking into the situation doesn't mean that there is a problem with the other product, just a perceived on at the time of investigation. One would be smart to consult lawyers on any matter that includes interpretation of the law.

However, this is not on topic with this thread and so if you want to add solutions to create a more open hacking environment then please do so. If not, then please make your comments about Jelsoft policies at the Jelsoft site or keep them to yourself.

I, personally, hope to hear ideas on how to make this a more open environment for future addons and modifications.
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  #59  
Old 29 Mar 2004, 20:31
Stadler Stadler is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Originally Posted by Wayne Luke
Actually, any such look at this will be within the copyrighted code and not based on look and feel. Just because lawyers will be looking into the situation doesn't mean that there is a problem with the other product, just a perceived on at the time of investigation. One would be smart to consult lawyers on any matter that includes interpretation of the law.

However, this is not on topic with this thread and so if you want to add solutions to create a more open hacking environment then please do so. If not, then please make your comments about Jelsoft policies at the Jelsoft site or keep them to yourself.

I, personally, hope to hear ideas on how to make this a more open environment for future addons and modifications.
About my hacks: If someone wants to port one of them, he may just ask me by PM or eMail and since I guess, others think the same, perhaps a list could be created, where all these hackers are listed along with eMail and/or PM-Links.
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  #60  
Old 29 Mar 2004, 21:57
13th_Disciple 13th_Disciple is offline
 
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create a forum for "open hacks"

in that forum, folks help contribute to each others code.. allow for discussions of the code itself.. allow for free conversation, unless it actually violates a law instead of prohibiting the speech because it "might" violate a law.. not that most of the speech here has been lawfully questionable, bu tat the same time, talking about certain things here makes the proverbial ass of jelsoft pucker tighter than a wh0re in church..

allow for a bit of freedom in those particular forums alone as far as some of the more questionable topics go.. and actually tell people that the roughly questionable conversations should be limited to the open area..

so create a sub cat with a couple of sub forums.. on is a hack forum the other a discussion of hacks/ open content.. it certainly is not a be all end all solution, but a step in the right direction is better than the two steps back approach of late..

edit--
Just to be sure folks know, make sure the info on the forum for hacks explicitly states all hacks posted within are OPEN for any modification as so chosen by any member as they se fit unless otherwise deemed to seriously violate the jelsoft license agreement.. and by seriously, i mean something that completely, without question, everyone can see it, violates the LA..

Last edited by 13th_Disciple; 29 Mar 2004 at 22:01.
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