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  #196  
Old 24 Mar 2004, 23:23
Stadler Stadler is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Originally Posted by Wayne Luke
Actually, this is exactly what the hack does. It allows every person on a site running this to create their own sub-community with a unique look and feel, control over their members, multiple forums and so forth.

It is a lot more than simply creating a forum on an installation.
And what would happen, if this is extremely limited? e. g. only one forum/subforum/whatever per topic, only, chosen persons to manage them and so on? There won't be any automation then, compared to rapidforum.com, EZboard & Co. where everyone could just create a forum in no time ...
  #197  
Old 24 Mar 2004, 23:33
twoseven twoseven is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Velocd

Those of you with complaints of how having multiple administrators is in violation to the license--well, it isn't, because there is only 1 vBulletin in question there. When you create more than 1 vBulletin with unlicensed administrators, then things are in obvious concern.
well from what i've seen there is still 1 database/vbull install and this is the same as the administrator(s) issue. the new forum is a subsection of the forum just giving the given catagory more specialization/automation so if a forum user sees the need it can be added with admin either accepting or deneying it. this whole thing has been beat to death already with this much discussion from us alone is either a good or bad sign.
speed street i'm glad you understand the legalities maybe vb will higher you to redefine their agreement
1 week timeframe is long enough for this to die and them sweep the hack under the rug just my opinion there
  #198  
Old 24 Mar 2004, 23:34
SpeedStreet SpeedStreet is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Velocd
Hmm, that certainly shifts my judgement.

Your vBulletin license is applicable to one installation of vBulletin under your identity, and if you're allowing others to replicate your vBulletin under their name, it violates the policy of having a vBulletin without having a license. If you say the user is using your license, then that violates the rule where the installed vBulletin pertains to only the purchaser of the license.

Those of you with complaints of how having multiple administrators is in violation to the license--well, it isn't, because there is only 1 vBulletin in question there. When you create more than 1 vBulletin with unlicensed administrators, then things are in obvious concern.

The main argument provided against Jelsoft seems to be that this hack doesn't cross any boundaries, and isn't a "whole" vBulletin, but simply utilizies a portion.

To what significance is this portion in regard to vBulletin as a whole?

Well, this hack clearly seems to perform the principle feature of vBulletin--a system for creating and managing forums.

In this affect it goes against the license.
To that effect, than any subforum you create and allow someone else to run with you is in direct violation.

Without testing the hack, it is impossible for you to make any type of judgement or informed opinion. The hack adds additional tables ot the database in order to allow for additional functionality for categories (also known as subforums). You are not appointing new administrators, merely enabling a moderator to have additional control over how the content is displayed in the forum areas of their responsibility.

The problem here is obviously the logistics of the naming convention being used

A vbHost Admin = A vB Moderator
A vbHost Forum = A vB SubForum
A vbHost Style = A vB child style
A vbHost Ban = a vB Access Mask
A vbHost User = an existing vB User
A vBHost Forum Creation Request = A vB Request for additional content which that person is offering to lead.

I run a 501c3 charity. Part of my site deals with locations throughout the world. The subforums in question are only created when there is a justification for them. Essentially, these forums are run by the Moderators appointed to govern them, and I give them the choice as to how they want their subcategories they want. At the current time, they PM me their requests, and I research whether or not it is a prudent idea.

According to the inferences in this thread, I am in direct violation of the license agreement for what would be considered User Demand/Driven Content.

You can't have it both ways. Either I am in the wrong, or vBHosting is in the right.
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  #199  
Old 24 Mar 2004, 23:42
SpeedStreet SpeedStreet is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
My concern is that even though I am approaching this in a benign and innocent fashion, I can definitely see a surge of even more final fantasy boards spawning off additional boards because people don't understand the ramifications. We'll have hundreds of boards throughout the vBLand with 8,000 forums and 400 posts because every jerkass in the world will want to rule their own little section.

Given the choice between governance and self-reliance, the human tendency is to want to go your own way.

That being said, I am thoroughly concerned about the issues that the License Agreement poses. There is not enough verbiage to prohibit this type of behavior, and I would be more than happy to sit down with the group and analyze the loopholes. I understand Jelsoft's desire to KISS (Keep It Simple Stupid) but the possibility of litigation has been left wide open on several accounts.

I strongly urge GameCrash to go back to the drawing board and rework this hack to ensure that only limited users have access to forum creation. I think that the backend for forum manipulation is very powerful, and could be salvaged as a tremendous tool for all vBulletin users in the future.

I would like to hear from Jelsoft what they think a good comprimise would be. Thus far, this is the only way Moderators are able to add functionality to their parts of the board without being given explicit admin access.
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  #200  
Old 24 Mar 2004, 23:44
Wayne Luke's Avatar
Wayne Luke Wayne Luke is offline
 
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Originally Posted by SpeedStreet
I run a 501c3 charity. Part of my site deals with locations throughout the world. The subforums in question are only created when there is a justification for them. Essentially, these forums are run by the Moderators appointed to govern them, and I give them the choice as to how they want their subcategories they want. At the current time, they PM me their requests, and I research whether or not it is a prudent idea.
If these subforums are for the purposes of your international organization then you are not against the license agreement. If however you are creating forums for additional organizations and therefore sub-licensing vBulletin, then you are violating the license.

That is where the line is drawn. If this hack required people to be staff of the organization through moderator positions or administrator appointments, then there would be nothing wrong with it because it is a single installation on a single domain with a single organization and is not sub-licensing the software. However since it allows any registrant to in effect create their own community with unlimited control of how many forums, the look and feel of the forum, links back to their independant website and control over who can post and not post in the forum (via banning privileges), it violates the sub-licensing portion of the licensing agreement. And before you state that I should look at the hack and install it, I have it installed and I have looked at the code and I know exactly what it does.

It allows vBulletin License holder to issue defacto sub-licenses so that others can use the software. Even has a place where you can state your terms and conditions of their use of a license that a License holder has no right to grant..
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Last edited by Wayne Luke; 24 Mar 2004 at 23:48.
  #201  
Old 24 Mar 2004, 23:47
SpeedStreet SpeedStreet is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Originally Posted by Wayne Luke
If these subforums are for the purposes of your international organization then you are not against the license agreement. If however you are creating forums for additional organizations and therefore sub-licensing vBulletin, then you are violating the license.

That is where the line is drawn. If this hack required people to be staff of the organization through moderator positions or administrator appointments, then there would be nothing wrong with it because it is a single installation on a single domain with a single organization and is not sub-licensing the software. However since it allows any registrant to in effect create their own community with unlimited control of how many forums, the look and feel of the forum, links back to their independant website and control over who can post and not post in the forum (via banning privileges), it violates the sub-licensing portion of the agreement agreement. And before you state that I should look at the hack and install it, I have it installed and I have looked at the code and I know exactly what it does.

It allows vBulletin License holder to issue defacto sub-licenses so that others can use the software. Even has a place where you can state your terms and conditions.
Wayne,

Good post, before I respond, I'd like to see if you have a response for my previous message...sorry for my post whoring
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  #202  
Old 24 Mar 2004, 23:51
13th_Disciple 13th_Disciple is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
these are subforums, people.. not another instance of vbulletin itself, not "another vb", not anything like wayne and velocd are refering to.. it merely adds functionality for assigned users to SUB-FORUMS to be able to MODIFY the look and FEEL of a SUB-FORUM..

you can't just walk in someones forum, decide you want a sub-forum, and create one and modify it..

that is not what this does.. it allows an admin to create sub-forums for other folks to have their own look and feel for their SUB-FORUM of a SINGLE INSTANCE of a SINGLE INSTALL of vBulletin using the same database and the same php files..

Kiers reply doesn't hold water, imo because this is not passing out the source of the software.. this is allowing style/ template mods of an already existing, fully licensed version of vBulletin..

this arguement is serving no purpose for any one community.. let alone the broken community of a slowly becomg defunct vBulletin.org, that consistently changes it policies, rules and hack info based on what they decide instead of basing it on the one thing they are here for and completely overlook.. community..

that has been proven almost on a weekly basis anymore with the people leaving and creating their own sites to produce hacks for vBulletin itself..

now, with the thought of changing the license agreement in mind, if it changes every time a version change occurs, so will the user base of vBulletin.. clearly this is a recognized issue.. and clearly some of the "higher ups" have recognized that the community here shows interest in something such as this hack or HTL or even the lockdown hack.. now, i understand laws and even understand attorneys and the issues this could create.. but surely it's a recognized fact that the only consistent thing with this site and almost all of vB as a whole is the consistently changing rules.. this has got to stop if there is to be a core of anything.. else a 160 dollar license ain't such a good investment..
  #203  
Old 24 Mar 2004, 23:58
Wayne Luke's Avatar
Wayne Luke Wayne Luke is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Real name: Wayne
Originally Posted by 13th_Disciple
that is not what this does.. it allows an admin to create sub-forums for other folks to have their own look and feel for their SUB-FORUM of a SINGLE INSTANCE of a SINGLE INSTALL of vBulletin using the same database and the same php files..
Actually, it does allow any member to create a sub-forum without admin intervention with the proper settings. it allows multiple and unlimited forums to be created with the proper settings. It is much more than simple sub-forums.

I can demonstrate this if you truly wish me to using the same code that was being distributed here.
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  #204  
Old 24 Mar 2004, 23:58
Dark Shogun Dark Shogun is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Real name: Nate
Originally Posted by Velocd
Hmm, that certainly shifts my judgement.

Your vBulletin license is applicable to one installation of vBulletin under your identity, and if you're allowing others to replicate your vBulletin under their name, it violates the policy of having a vBulletin without having a license. If you say the user is using your license, then that violates the rule where the installed vBulletin pertains to only the purchaser of the license.

Those of you with complaints of how having multiple administrators is in violation to the license--well, it isn't, because there is only 1 vBulletin in question there. When you create more than 1 vBulletin with unlicensed administrators, then things are in obvious concern.

The main argument provided against Jelsoft seems to be that this hack doesn't cross any boundaries, and isn't a "whole" vBulletin, but simply utilizies a portion.

To what significance is this portion in regard to vBulletin as a whole?

Well, this hack clearly seems to perform the principle feature of vBulletin--a system for creating and managing forums.

In this affect it goes against the license.
From what I gathered from reading the original hack thread and this one the board and forums would still be under the super admin identify but they allow people to make a forum to mod. As stated there is on one set of files, database, and domain. Now if you (Jelsoft) want to try and find a loop hole then that is up to you but if you are taking the license at face value then this hack should be allowed. As I and a few others have said you can do almost everything this hack does without the hack itself except the automated parts. If I wanted to allow someone to setup a forum on my installation that I am currently using all I would have to do is set them as a mini admin and they can make all the forums they want and Jelsoft wouldn't know. But my question was never answered earlier. What if you have a single vbulletin and have a network of sites and each site wants it's own catergory and forums? Each site has different owners but all site owners are owners under the whole network.

Dark Shogun
  #205  
Old 25 Mar 2004, 00:00
Wayne Luke's Avatar
Wayne Luke Wayne Luke is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Real name: Wayne
Originally Posted by SpeedStreet
I would like to hear from Jelsoft what they think a good comprimise would be. Thus far, this is the only way Moderators are able to add functionality to their parts of the board without being given explicit admin access.
If re-worked so that the control of the sub-forums is only available from the Moderator Control Panel and only administrator appointed staff could be assigned to control specific sub-forums this will probably be an acceptable hack. However, to enable anyone to install this and host 1000 forums of their own is not.

It would also have to include a standalone text file for it not to be reliant on external hacks even if the hack is included in the installation.
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Last edited by Wayne Luke; 25 Mar 2004 at 00:03.
  #206  
Old 25 Mar 2004, 00:12
Dark Shogun Dark Shogun is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Real name: Nate
Originally Posted by Wayne Luke
If re-worked so that the control of the sub-forums is only available from the Moderator Control Panel and only administrator appointed staff could be assigned to control specific sub-forums this will probably be an acceptable hack. However, to enable anyone to install this and host 1000 forums of their own is not.

It would also have to include a standalone text file for it not to be reliant on external hacks even if the hack is included in the installation.
So are you saying the decision is basically made and that the hack will not be allowed unless those changes are made to it? Also I didn't see anything in the license about single "organization".

Dark Shogun

Last edited by Dark Shogun; 25 Mar 2004 at 00:16.
  #207  
Old 25 Mar 2004, 00:13
Chris|vB Chris|vB is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
So this hack is banned ? ..... ?
  #208  
Old 25 Mar 2004, 00:19
forum4games forum4games is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Originally Posted by Chris|vB
So this hack is banned ? ..... ?
I guess so, but what did you expect from VBulletin? They don't give a cr** about you, me or anyone here. They just worry about lining there pockets with our money!

Thank god I only 'leased' and once that runs out Invision here I come....
  #209  
Old 25 Mar 2004, 00:20
Wayne Luke's Avatar
Wayne Luke Wayne Luke is offline
 
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Real name: Wayne
Originally Posted by Wayne Luke
If re-worked so that the control of the sub-forums is only available from the Moderator Control Panel and only administrator appointed staff could be assigned to control specific sub-forums this will probably be an acceptable hack. However, to enable anyone to install this and host 1000 forums of their own is not.

It would also have to include a standalone text file for it not to be reliant on external hacks even if the hack is included in the installation.
Here is my example to prove my point: http://www.vbulletinmods.com/index.php?

Go ahead and sign up and you can have your own hosted community in as little as five minutes.

And irregardless of the statements about this making mods' lives easier, the way it is set up there is the intent and purpose of the this hack. At stated by the original post and by the options provided.
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Last edited by Wayne Luke; 25 Mar 2004 at 00:23.
  #210  
Old 25 Mar 2004, 00:23
SpeedStreet SpeedStreet is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Originally Posted by Wayne Luke
If re-worked so that the control of the sub-forums is only available from the Moderator Control Panel and only administrator appointed staff could be assigned to control specific sub-forums this will probably be an acceptable hack. However, to enable anyone to install this and host 1000 forums of their own is not.

It would also have to include a standalone text file for it not to be reliant on external hacks even if the hack is included in the installation.
FOR THOSE OF YOU NOT PAYING ATTENTION, THIS IS A COMPRIMISE

Based on the concerns of the vBulletin staff, I think this comprimise should be addressed.

GameCrazy, would you be willing to rework your hack to allow for this?
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