Register Members List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 22 Jul 2005, 23:07
tamarian tamarian is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Auto merge duplicates doing more harm than good

I guess this auto merge things is intended to prevent bumps? And if so, it should really check the text and look for some cluse to determine if it's really a bump, or a duplicate.

It does ruin some good threads. For example, me and Amy are trying to debug a problem with crons. 7 hours later, after my last reply, I wanted to add a new peice to the puzzle, that I'm unable to duplicate the problem. Yet the new post, which is not duplicate, and several hours later, is still merged and marked as duplicate. This doesn't make any sense.

The worst part of it is that it will not send a notification to those subscribed to it, and will not update the last post time, so it will not show up as having any update.

Here's an example:

http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showp...2&postcount=16

Same happened to several threads I'm subscribed to, and I've never been notified of the updates, not was I able to see if they were updated, because of this automerge thing.

Is it really worth it?

And if so, could you at least let send a notification to those who want it...
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 23 Jul 2005, 07:29
Logikos Logikos is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
They should do a dateline check.
__________________
Full Time PHP Developer
Please feel free to contact me if you have any paid work to be done.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 24 Jul 2005, 15:03
tamarian tamarian is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Here's a second example, where this auto merge can prevent people from getting help and/or support:

http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=92526

1. Member asks for help
2. A fix was offered
3. Member confirms that the fix worked
4. Member posts later that there's still a problem
5. Post in #4 is auto merged, so no one gets notified about the remaining problem
6. 4 days later Someone else replies that they have the same problem.
7. Now a notification is sent, and the person helping is able to see that there was a post that was missed due to auto merge.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 24 Jul 2005, 15:17
Christine's Avatar
Christine Christine is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Real name: Christine. Really.
I have missed a few things as well as I use New Posts to see what threads have been updated.
__________________
L'chaim
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 24 Jul 2005, 16:02
Paul M's Avatar
Paul M Paul M is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Real name: Paul M
I like the basic idea of the auto-merge, except the way it has been implemented here is poor. The dateline of an automerged post should be updated, so it shows up in "get new posts". I also think the timelimit on it is very excessive here.
__________________
Former vBulletin.org Staff Member


Cable Forum
Please do not PM me about custom work - I no longer undertake any.
Note: I will not answer support questions via e-mail or PM - please use the relevant thread or forum.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 24 Jul 2005, 16:35
sketch42's Avatar
sketch42 sketch42 is offline
 
Join Date: May 2004
Real name: Zac
Originally Posted by Paul M
I like the basic idea of the auto-merge, except the way it has been implemented here is poor. The dateline of an automerged post should be updated, so it shows up in "get new posts". I also think the timelimit on it is very excessive here.
well so far i have noticed that i never had a problem with my posts being merged... even if i post one after another... i believe the reason is i use the quick reply button which always quotes the person before me so it doesnt get merged because of the quotes... im not saying that people should do this to get around the automerge.. but what i am saying is that the automerge isnt perfect an should be looked and have someof these new suggestions applied

Originally Posted by sketch42
well so far i have noticed that i never had a problem with my posts being merged... even if i post one after another... i believe the reason is i use the quick reply button which always quotes the person before me so it doesnt get merged because of the quotes... im not saying that people should do this to get around the automerge.. but what i am saying is that the automerge isnt perfect an should be looked and have someof these new suggestions applied
wow that was a first... never got auto merged before

never mind my babling than
__________________
Some Hacks Installed on my vb3.0.7 Board
Quick Ban G.A.S. Sigs Once Per Page
Database Backup Pro Get New Posts

Last edited by sketch42; 24 Jul 2005 at 16:38. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 24 Jul 2005, 16:57
tamarian tamarian is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Originally Posted by sketch42
wow that was a first... never got auto merged before

never mind my babling than
It sneaks up on you doesn't it

But your post reminded me of a 3rd case.

Case #2 deals with people offering help missing any new feedback on their proposed solutions/fixes.

Case #3:

1. You release a hack
2. 3 Members post questions/problems about the hack
3. You reply to each question separately, and it may take a while to investigate each case.
4. All 3 answers get automerged as "duplicates"
5. Members who asked the 2nd and 3rd question will not get a notification. They get the 1st notification, which contains the answer to question #1.
When they check new posts, the see you have "ignored" them, since it doesn't show as anyone replied.

Eventually you realise that you can no longer rely on vB's reply notification, new posts, or thread subscription panel. So if you care about seeing if there are any posts, you'll need to bookmark those threads, and keep checking. Or ignore it completely, and members can PM you to let you know their posts were auto-merged, if they really want to hear from you.

Instead of enhancing the parameters and complicating it further, why not just get rid of it... I know bumps are annoying, but at least we got used to them. Auto-merging important stuff and not being able to see updates is not just annoying, it makes it hard to keep track of things.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 24 Jul 2005, 17:48
Paul M's Avatar
Paul M Paul M is offline
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Real name: Paul M
Automerge does not happen in the hack forums.
__________________
Former vBulletin.org Staff Member


Cable Forum
Please do not PM me about custom work - I no longer undertake any.
Note: I will not answer support questions via e-mail or PM - please use the relevant thread or forum.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 24 Jul 2005, 18:14
tamarian tamarian is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Originally Posted by Paul M
Automerge does not happen in the hack forums.
That's great. Not as bad as I thought.

But this implies that discussions in the hack forum are too important to mess with, while the rest could be deemed trivial or of less importance...
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 24 Jul 2005, 18:28
Xenon's Avatar
Xenon Xenon is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Real name: Stefan Kaeser
As we said several times now regarding that topic:

Since the automerger has been installed here we did a step forward, as bumps do not happen anymore.

We did not activate that hack in hackforums as there wasn'T a bumpingproblem, and also there it was usefull to do multiple replies (hack updates and such)

however in the requestforum it will stay as we don't want the senseless bumping again.

We still know how it was before, and how it's now. Ok we know that there is no perfect way, as each thing has it's advantages and disadvantages, but the way it is now has fit in our needs the best.

We cannot make everyone happy.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 24 Jul 2005, 18:51
tamarian tamarian is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Originally Posted by Xenon
Ok we know that there is no perfect way, as each thing has it's advantages and disadvantages, but the way it is now has fit in our needs the best.
And what are your needs? And how does this auto-merge thing fit those needs?

If the needs of the moderators is to not be annoyed by bumps, does that need outweight the rugular operations of a discussion forum, where, by default, members expect to be notified of new replies, and see those threads when they click "new posts"?

This really does not fit the usual comparison of advantages vs. disadvantages. It just seems extremely selfish to disable those standard features and alter the behavious of the forum for everyone, just because a few are more annoyed by bumps than the average joe. We all run forums, and we all deal with those bumps.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 24 Jul 2005, 19:00
Xenon's Avatar
Xenon Xenon is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Real name: Stefan Kaeser
Well and on your forum you can handle bumps as YOU want it to be handled, on our forum we have to handle that.
And we ahve decided for a way that we think it's the best. You might agree or not agree, but our experience showes that our way fits in the best for our needs.

An no it's not because mods are annoyed of bumps.
User get annoyed of bumps as well, especially if someone is bumping his topics more often so that other topics go down fast, which are actually newer ones.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 24 Jul 2005, 19:27
tamarian tamarian is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Originally Posted by Xenon
Well and on your forum you can handle bumps as YOU want it to be handled, on our forum we have to handle that.
And we ahve decided for a way that we think it's the best. You might agree or not agree, but our experience showes that our way fits in the best for our needs.
"Your" forum is actually a Jelsoft forum and not a personal forum, this is something you guys told me more than once.

My feedback on this has nothing to do with how I might run my forums. I'm simply giving you feedback and showing you specific cases where you are preventing me and other members from being notified of important replies to support issues. This doesn't have to be another "us and them" issue.

An no it's not because mods are annoyed of bumps.
User get annoyed of bumps as well, especially if someone is bumping his topics more often so that other topics go down fast, which are actually newer ones.
Both are annoying. But you have a stated rule against bumping. Don't punish all of us just because a few don't follw the rules.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 24 Jul 2005, 19:50
Marco van Herwaarden Marco van Herwaarden is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Tamarian this has been discussed numerous times, also a few times recently, and if this has so much of your interest, i can't believe you have missed those discussions. In those discussions we always ended up with members who liked it how it is now, and others who where of the opinion that there where more negaitve then positive sides to this. In the end all those discussions ended with enough support by members to keep the system how it is now.

So i am really curious why you try to force this discussion again. I find it very hard to look at this as a positive attempt to make this place batter.
__________________
Marco van Herwaarden
Ex vBulletin.org Coordinator
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 24 Jul 2005, 20:03
tamarian tamarian is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Originally Posted by MarcoH64
Tamarian this has been discussed numerous times, also a few times recently, and if this has so much of your interest, i can't believe you have missed those discussions. In those discussions we always ended up with members who liked it how it is now, and others who where of the opinion that there where more negaitve then positive sides to this. In the end all those discussions ended with enough support by members to keep the system how it is now.

So i am really curious why you try to force this discussion again. I find it very hard to look at this as a positive attempt to make this place batter.
Sure, I'll tell you.

I never noticed it taking place. I type fast, reply to one question and go to the next, and it looked curious a few times why I didn't get any feedback on an issue. It's only recently I noticed that I don't see the replies, or get the notifications, and miss a whole lot of issues and feedback, fixes, debugs, etc.

If what you say is true, and the members who give support to others have found it a great idea to eliminate those features, then I'd be astonished. When something doesn't make sense, it usually doesn't make sense.

I suspect members agree that bumps are annoying. That is totally different, since I definitly agree thet they are annoying. And the rule posted against bumping should be there as it is.

But that is a different issue than eliminating updates and notifications, since that is not only annoying, but misleading. The ones who usually get caught in it are the ones who try to help and get engaged in discussions to help others. While usually the ones who violate the rule don't care. I don't see why I should be denied those basic standard vB features, just because of the few who don't respect the rules.
Reply With Quote
Reply



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 16:42.

Layout Options | Width: Wide Color: