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  #16  
Old 08 Oct 2008, 04:21
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SEOvB SEOvB is offline
 
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Originally Posted by vbplusme View Post
Sorry, that's the WRONG model. Microsoft would in fact encrypt the whole planet is they could and ABSOLUTELY YES! EVERYTHING is frustrating about Micro$ so that's really a bad analogy. They are the ultimate scumbags that have driven the cost of living on this planet to where it is today. Maybe you are too young to remember but THEY introduced the $500 software packages and caused the whole concept of software piracy by their ruthless GREED. Its no secret that Micro$ intended to monopolize and dominate ALL software on the planet so that only THEY made $$$.
If it wasn't for Microsoft computers could arguably still not be accessible to the masses as they are today. Microsoft has done way more good than harm to consumers in regards to pricing of not only software but hardware, paved the way for tons of technology (who came up with it first or whatever is irrelevant, MS made it mostly accessible)

$500 software packages were around long before microsoft was and the same concept of piracy was present for ages.

Yes they did intend to dominate the planet. Its called business. You're in a business for profit, not to take a loss. Thats the great thing about it. All the prices they've set are consumer driven, if people didn't pay it, they'd either lower it or not make it.

But all this is neither here nor there as this is mostly about vBulletin addons, and i see a vBSEO battle looming
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  #17  
Old 08 Oct 2008, 04:22
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Originally Posted by Lizard King View Post
Do you know how hard is it to support and spend time with them plus code free addons for people you dont even know ? Do you think it is fair for you to spend your valuable time coding free addons instead of spending time with family. It is impossible.

Also everyone out there is creating a forum to make money. At least 95% target making money. Why should I code something free for someone who targets to make money ?
I totally agree with this, well said.

Originally Posted by FRDS View Post
If it wasn't for Microsoft computers could arguably still not be accessible to the masses as they are today. Microsoft has done way more good than harm to consumers in regards to pricing of not only software but hardware, paved the way for tons of technology (who came up with it first or whatever is irrelevant, MS made it mostly accessible)

$500 software packages were around long before microsoft was and the same concept of piracy was present for ages.
Another well said reply. Guys, if you want this and that in your forums (for free), check Community Server. They could sell you a forum license for only 20,000.00 and suply you for free with all the add-ons you want.
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  #18  
Old 08 Oct 2008, 04:35
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Reeve of shinra Reeve of shinra is offline
 
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I think Dean pretty much hit the nail on the head ... another factor is that the complexity of the mods has increased since the vb 2.0 days. Today, some scripts are nearly as complex as the core forum product itself. Its not the simply "add this to line 113 to get this effect" stuff.
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  #19  
Old 08 Oct 2008, 05:43
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I agree with some of your ideas like people charging too much.I before released many free modifications and even a LITE version.But we have to live too.Everything costs money,even me going to the bathrooms costs me money.Water,toilet paper,water again and soap.If I wouldn't have to pay for anything,I would release everything for free,but since it isn't,I need to make a living out of something .


Note: Oh and don't forget,some products are so highly priced because of the production price which also involves time making that modification.Jelsoft doesn't have to charge so much because they have ten-thousands of customers,but small websites like us,have only a couple.
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  #20  
Old 08 Oct 2008, 05:45
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Gio~Logist Gio~Logist is offline
 
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I think Dean pretty much nailed it in his post. Lizard King and Teck also brought up some very valid points.

We can sit here and discuss all day how cheap add on's should be, or we can realize that you really do "Get What You Pay For".

vBseo is said to be overpriced by quite a few people. Perhaps that's the case. However, have you seen how many people use it? Apparently the modification is of importance and is priced as so. Is seo valuable to you? If so, purchase vBseo. If not, you can download one for free right on here.

Also, you sure can go ahead and wait for vbulletin to release any of the additions in which you would like to see included. But do you really think they all will? Vbulletin is above and foremost, a forum software. The potential is indeed immense and a lot can be done, but Jelsoft's priorities (at least i believe) are directed towards the overall forum aspect of things.

They have a wide variety of clients in which all use their software for a different purpose. Imagine every additional feature was included in vbulletin? Imagine if even their own add-ons (blogs, project tools) were built into vbulletin? Then you'd have clients complaining how about many unnecessary features were packaged and crammed in the product, making it not so popular anymore.

Why can add-ons be such a high price? If you're paying for a modification in which was already made and available for sale, i definitely don't see the need in paying anywhere over $xxx (and even then only for cases such as vBseo where people believe it's benefits surpass the fees).

Now, when you get into custom modifications (add-ons that you need for your website individually), I hope you don't ever expect these customizations to be "free" or "built into vbulletin". Or else, what purpose would your website have over the other hundred thousands that can do the same accross the web? Custom modifications can go well into the $x,xxx-$xx,xxx range as the extent of the features needed increase. And that's very common.

It all depends on what the end result is worth to you (and your website). Obviously people wouldn't spent thousands on modifications if they didn't feel it'd benefit them
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Last edited by Gio~Logist; 08 Oct 2008 at 05:57.
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  #21  
Old 08 Oct 2008, 08:33
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cheat-master30 cheat-master30 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Gio~Logist View Post
I think Dean pretty much nailed it in his post. Lizard King and Teck also brought up some very valid points.

We can sit here and discuss all day how cheap add on's should be, or we can realize that you really do "Get What You Pay For".

vBseo is said to be overpriced by quite a few people. Perhaps that's the case. However, have you seen how many people use it? Apparently the modification is of importance and is priced as so. Is seo valuable to you? If so, purchase vBseo. If not, you can download one for free right on here.
I'm not going to argue about vBseo, and I'm really regretting using it as an example after the massive amounts of arguments every time the topic is brought up about whether it works, doesn't work, etc. All I can say is, at least their product isn't encrypted any more, and has probably enough features to just about justify the price.


Also, you sure can go ahead and wait for vbulletin to release any of the additions in which you would like to see included. But do you really think they all will? Vbulletin is above and foremost, a forum software. The potential is indeed immense and a lot can be done, but Jelsoft's priorities (at least i believe) are directed towards the overall forum aspect of things.
Did anyone seriously expect them to release Project Tools or a Blog add on?

Why can add-ons be such a high price? If you're paying for a modification in which was already made and available for sale, i definitely don't see the need in paying anywhere over $xxx (and even then only for cases such as vBseo where people believe it's benefits surpass the fees).

Now, when you get into custom modifications (add-ons that you need for your website individually), I hope you don't ever expect these customizations to be "free" or "built into vbulletin". Or else, what purpose would your website have over the other hundred thousands that can do the same accross the web? Custom modifications can go well into the $x,xxx-$xx,xxx range as the extent of the features needed increase. And that's very common.
I have no problem with custom coding costing a lot of money. But I'd expect as you said off the shelf prices to be a lot lower than that of custom coding, as mentioned in this paragraph:

Custom Coding costs thousands of dollars/pounds...

Yet the word custom pretty much says why. Getting a developer or programmer to work for you and build a custom script is likely going to cost far more by nature since they can't really resell the script for extra profit and you're basically paying them like an employee or freelance worker. You can't expect to sell an off shelf modification for a price that exceeds even the base products price, unless maybe your work was a few hundred times more in depth, feature rich, optimised etc than the foundation is was built on. And to my knowledge, I don't know any paid add on (or free one) for vBulletin, Invision, etc, that is not custom for one site that has enough to justify such a ridiculously steep price tag.

Originally Posted by FRDS View Post
Do you make money from your forums? Do you intend to make money from them? Do the paid features that you need help you make money? Would your members be happier by you spending some cash or taking some donations to get a new must have feature?
No. Probably not. Not at this moment. I don't know.


Originally Posted by TECK View Post
First, this post does not have any adversity towards a specific person. It is the pure truth what I think about all remarks. I will not speak in a shallow manner so it might sound rough but believe me, I'm honest and say exactly what I think.

1. Why the hell is everything for money now?
If you would like to pay my mortgage and all other expenses that total up to $2,000/month, please let me know so I will stop working. All the free projects etc. you see out there survive on donations... I don't understand why people purchase vBulletin and do no use a free alternative. If you spent money on a good software and paid for it to get it, it is absolutely normal to expect to pay for other add-ons, if you want quality.
Because they like vBulletin as a base product because of it's quality and features? Because they like vBulletin and think the prices are fair but not those of the add ons? Because just a few years ago it seems there were a lot more free modifications that caused vBulletin.org to be given a lot more as a reason for purchasing vBulletin?


2. Prices from Hell?
The minimum fee I charge for my customers is 1,000.00, depending on what contract I work on. My current client signed for a 4,000.00 job. However he is getting what he paid for, quality and reliability. It took me 6 months to develop the product he wants. During this time, I did not get paid a dime. Now I collect the benefits from the long nights lost. I think it is fair, especially if the client saves money. Basically, my products will save him overall 7-12,000.00/year. So investing 4,000.00 is nothing for his benefits.
I have nothing against custom coding and work, which is what you've described. Just it's steep for something off the shelf and made for many different websites.


3. Lite does not equal feature non existent
When this community was born, I was doing a lot of freebies. Until I saw how many people ripped my code and did similar releases, while appropriating my hard work. It was allowed, because they changed 2-3 lines of code so it did not looked the same. Not to mention that other products were pure crap, in code quality... That made me decide that I will NEVER release anything for free, anywhere. It was an excellent decision, now I can make a decent living out if my products and services. Most of them are word to mouth advertised.
The point here is more that releasing Lite modifications with no features or reason to install is worse than not actually releasing the lite version at all, especially if you promote the heck out of the paid product in the first post.

--------------- Added 08 Oct 2008 at 08:38 ---------------

Originally Posted by Lizard King View Post
All your post is pointless and you dont even have one single correct arguement.

Do you know how hard is it to support and spend time with them plus code free addons for people you dont even know ? Do you think it is fair for you to spend your valuable time coding free addons instead of spending time with family. It is impossible.
I'm not forcing anyone to release any modifications or whatever. Just saying about the paid ones, and the mistakes people are making with releasing the amounts of them.


Also everyone out there is creating a forum to make money. At least 95% target making money. Why should i code something free for someone who targets to make money ?
Because 95% are not in it to make money, at least initially? I know a lot of forums set up because the owners were interested in the subject and helping others, and not because money was one of their goals or interests. Note the amount of forums with no ads or minimal advertising for example.


P.S : Hopefully noone will turn this thread into vBSEO discussion. Author made a point and i just responded.
As I said before, I really don't want vBSEO discussion, because it's not the point of the topic, nor as I've seen before ends well.
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  #22  
Old 08 Oct 2008, 12:56
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Your comparison of pricing between vBulletin and custom mods is unreasonable.

vBulletin operates a high volume, low margin model to generate revenue. The cost of operation is amortized across thousands of customers. On the other hand, small mod developers can only expect low volume high margin models. Relative elementary business economics.
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  #23  
Old 08 Oct 2008, 12:59
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Originally Posted by dodjer42 View Post
Relative elementary business economics.
Exactly what he said.

btw, you can not evaluate that kind of things if you do not have the data in hands... or if nobody is able to explain the results to you -- teachers are needed here!
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  #24  
Old 08 Oct 2008, 13:44
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Princeton Princeton is offline
 
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Originally Posted by dodjer42 View Post
Your comparison of pricing between vBulletin and custom mods is unreasonable.

vBulletin operates a high volume, low margin model to generate revenue. The cost of operation is amortized across thousands of customers. On the other hand, small mod developers can only expect low volume high margin models. Relative elementary business economics.
I could not have said it better.

economics - learn it before you comment about an addon 'price'
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  #25  
Old 08 Oct 2008, 13:55
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If you can't price your product and move your product like vBulletin moves to keep your price in check with vBulletin itself, you've already failed. It's too narrow minded.

But what do I know, right? I just sit at home and post on forums.

Too many people think they can live off of one cool idea that "enhances" vBulletin. It's not that easy.
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  #26  
Old 08 Oct 2008, 17:58
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I am unsure of the last time I have seen so much ignorance crammed into a single post.

Let me try to sum up a viewpoint as I am someone who has contributed a bunch of mods (big and small) to vB for free and some big ones that I charged for.

1. Most mods are FARRRRR more complex now adays then pre 3.5.
2. Complexity takes time, talent and dedication to create and even more so to support
3. If you expect me to spend months developing an add on for you and support it for you and not charge you for it, then I expect you to come mow my lawn once a week, take out my garbage and occasionally babysit my kids for free.

Coding takes time to do and even more time to develop the skill. No commercial moders are driving new Ferrari's from their scriptlets and why I should be your +++++ for nothing is beyond me.

One commercial script I wrote had well over 2,000 hours between coding and supporting it and I charged 15 for it. That means that it cost you less than .01 per hour for my services. If I sold 1,000 then I made 10 per hour (and 1,000 copies of a commercial mod is a lot to sell).

I could make about as much working at Burger King.

What about vBSEO? Who freaking cares if its a rip off, over priced or the owners just bought their own island. If they make money from it, good for them. Cost is relative to the purchaser. I use vBseo, I like the results I get form the product. Would I be happier if it was cheaper (or free) of course! But if the $200 was too much for me for the return of functionality, I wouldnt have bought it.

How many hours do you work for free at your job? I mean, what is with all of the employees now a days that wont work unless you pay them? What about overtime? FFS! If they work more than 40 hours in a week, I have to pay them even more! What is their problem????

Do you have adsense on your site, but tell Google to keep the money? You arent botherd? You are supporting the development of newer and better web technologies! You are alos providing service to your users!

Its ignorant, cheap, disrespecting, non contributing-to-the-pot welfare demanding posters like this that pretty much kill most professional coders desire to contribute anything to a community.

They are usually the first to skip reading any documentation, installation notes, or previous posts in a thread before wingeing about a problem.

Rant over
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  #27  
Old 08 Oct 2008, 18:04
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/me throw a copper to Sam...
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  #28  
Old 08 Oct 2008, 18:13
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Last edited by smacklan; 08 Oct 2008 at 20:46.
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  #29  
Old 08 Oct 2008, 18:31
noppid noppid is offline
 
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OMG the socialization of code? Is that what they want?

Some people are never happy.

No commercial moders are driving new Ferrari's from their scriptlets.
Damn, had I gotten that memo 5 years ago, I'd probably be...
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  #30  
Old 08 Oct 2008, 19:00
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Originally Posted by smacklan View Post
Until you actually operate your own business, invest your money and time into developing and supporting a product, you really have no way of knowing what it takes. Saying someone charges too much for what they sell is understandable, but lets get real...you either pony up or you don't...getting pissed at what someone charges is rather pointless. Good business people know what they have to charge to remain competitive and still turn a profit.(that is what it's all about, afterall) In regards to people here not churning out quality stuff for free, well I have to say alot of that has to do with what Brad and Dean said but on the flip side, this place is full of leechers who show up here expecting to get the world handed to them on a silver platter for free...life just doesn't work that way. In regards to pirates, they are nothing more than punk thieves with huge ego's. Total wastes of oxygen who will never amount to anything worthwhile in life.
People who have never taken that leap of faith will ever fully appreciate that concept.

The market will support whatever people are willing to pay - charge too much and you won't make much money. Charge too little and you might never make a profit.

Originally Posted by The Geek
No commercial moders are driving new Ferrari's from their scriptlets
Yo! Seriously, all I could ever afford was a bunch of Dodge Vipers. Ferraris are for the vB folks.
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