[digitalpoint]

Originally Posted by katie hunter

What will be entertaining is when VB 5.x becomes better a year later and many will start upgrading, i know for a fact that those who left and code for XF will come back. Only days will prove it.

Hopefully you are right, but so far the vBulletin marketshare bleed hasn't even started to slow down.

In the "big vendor" commercial forum market space (vBulletin, Invision and XenForo), vBulletin is still the leader by a good amount. But at the same time, they have lost 10% of the entire industry in the last 6 months.



I doubt even Blackberry lost 20% of the entire cell phone industry marketshare in their worst year.

Either way, I'm still hoping vBulletin does something amazing and is able to reverse the trend.

[Necrovaris]

Originally Posted by katie hunter

Are we now going to throw false facts just to make XF looks better? Really? :0) IGN does use XF but the others, doesn't use XF

Like I said, you need to look harder. Someone else already posted the Sony links.

But seems pointless to continue this discussion, you seem so blinded by your hatred of XenForo, you only see what you want to see

[squidsk]

Originally Posted by katie hunter

I never moved my site to vb 5.x because as of now vb 4.x is perfect for me and my users, while vb 5.x needs another year or so to shape up better.

You do realize the naivety of this statement right. Software that is released for use (i.e. not beta) should be stable and run without problems, not necessarily bug free since that's impossible. To say that you aren't upgrading to vb5 for 2+ years from release says a ton about the quality of the software, especially when you are saying the main reason you aren't moving is because it isn't yet good enough a year after release.

Just like i never moved to vb 4.x when it came out, i only moved from vb 3.7.6 to vb 4.x just last year when i felt that it is completely stable now and i won't face issues. I am not someone who rushes and try to test out products, i usually give it a good 2 years or so to see everyone's feedback.

Again what does it say about the software if it took 4 years from release before you thought it was stable enough for you to use on a live site.

Could you imagine if say some software was release in 2014 but it wasn't usable until 2018? How many people are going to buy the product? How many of the people that do buy the product are going to hang around and buy the next version that gets released afterwards? How many are going to hang around for a third version after the second one is the same way? That's not a reasonable way to run a business since you have no income stream, or at least minimal income stream, for four years after a release.

While I want to use VB 5.x for a new project, i can't right now, and my option is looking at Discourse forum but a year or two later, i will see where vb 5.x is at.

You really summuarize vb5 by saying I can't use it now because it isn't good enough, but I'll hope it'll better in a year or two. No software can survive if that is the opinion of the people who are suppose to be using it, and you're a strong supporter of the software who's willing to stick around. Most people aren't going to stick around for 2-3 years after release (we're already 1 year past release now) to see if the software actually becomes usable, they're going to find alternatives.

[JacquiiDesigns]

Originally Posted by digitalpoint

Hopefully you are right, but so far the vBulletin marketshare bleed hasn't even started to slow down.

In the "big vendor" commercial forum market space (vBulletin, Invision and XenForo), vBulletin is still the leader by a good amount. But at the same time, they have lost 10% of the entire industry in the last 6 months.

...

Either way, I'm still hoping vBulletin does something amazing and is able to reverse the trend.

What I find interesting is that instead of the main (and disputably the only relevant) focus be about releasing a quality, usable product in vB 5.1.0 --- It seems the focus was squarely aimed at the vBCloud option.

I too hope vBulletin will do something amazing. That hope is slowly fading though, as we continually see IB's inept handling of the vBulletin script!

Originally Posted by Necrovaris

But seems pointless to continue this discussion, you seem so blinded by your hatred of XenForo, you only see what you want to see

Couldn't have said this better.
I personally find it interestingly mind-boggling that someone would so blindly hang their hat on a software (vB 5) that may get better or may become production usable in a year or two, the whole criticizing the most prominent figures who helped create what arguably is the best series vBulletin: 3.x

Originally Posted by squidsk

You do realize the naivety of this statement right. Software that is released for use (i.e. not beta) should be stable and run without problems ... To say that you aren't upgrading to vb5 for 2+ years from release says a ton about the quality of the software....

Could you imagine if say some software was release in 2014 but it wasn't usable until 2018? How many people are going to buy the product?

Nice post.
If DP's cookie chart is a true representation of what's really going on -- and I have no reason to disbelieve its validity -- vBulletin's market share has taken a huge 10% dive in only the last 6 months. These are disastrous numbers for a script that has been considered THE ABSOLUTE BEST since it's inception... until IB took over and bombarded the world with the vBulletin 4 Gold flop.

To answer your questions above:

1. Certainly I can imagine.
2. Nobody.

J.

[katie hunter]

Originally Posted by Necrovaris

Like I said, you need to look harder. Someone else already posted the Sony links.

But seems pointless to continue this discussion, you seem so blinded by your hatred of XenForo, you only see what you want to see

Don't put words in my mouth, i never said I hated XF, in fact you will see my answer below : ) I am going to do what i see best for myself and my users, not what you guys wants to hear to praise a particular product that is yet in development and inferior.

Originally Posted by squidsk

You do realize the naivety of this statement right. Software that is released for use (i.e. not beta) should be stable and run without problems, not necessarily bug free since that's impossible. To say that you aren't upgrading to vb5 for 2+ years from release says a ton about the quality of the software, especially when you are saying the main reason you aren't moving is because it isn't yet good enough a year after release.

Again what does it say about the software if it took 4 years from release before you thought it was stable enough for you to use on a live site.

Could you imagine if say some software was release in 2014 but it wasn't usable until 2018? How many people are going to buy the product? How many of the people that do buy the product are going to hang around and buy the next version that gets released afterwards? How many are going to hang around for a third version after the second one is the same way? That's not a reasonable way to run a business since you have no income stream, or at least minimal income stream, for four years after a release.

You really summuarize vb5 by saying I can't use it now because it isn't good enough, but I'll hope it'll better in a year or two. No software can survive if that is the opinion of the people who are suppose to be using it, and you're a strong supporter of the software who's willing to stick around. Most people aren't going to stick around for 2-3 years after release (we're already 1 year past release now) to see if the software actually becomes usable, they're going to find alternatives.

To answer both of you, i am someone who waits for a product to shape up better for my needs, these answers are flawed. The same reason why i didn't jump right away and bought Xenforo but the difference between VB and XF is that the XF community and their staff didn't like someone who is active on their community and critic their product yet that person didn't buy their product, they would rather get rid of that person. And the reason i didn't buy XF was because XF was not ready for me to use and needed 2 years in development.

When i said this over there, no body liked my comment and you will receive comments like "Why are you posting here then?" or "Why are you still active if you aren't buying the product?" and from XF staff point of view, their actions were "These threads are meant for customers feedback only, if you are a customer, add your license to your account, thread locked"

VB 4.x is ready for my needs.
Neither XF or VB 5.x is ready for my needs and both needs 1 - 2 years to shape up.

I joined XF on Sep 20, 2012 and never bought the product but i was active on XF. They didn't like seeing members who join and not buy their software because they think it not ready. XF is not ready for me and that is why i never bought it.

[nhawk]

Anyone determined to find another person or group inferior can always find whole lists of grounds that demonstrate inferiority because we are all inferior to the ideals of humanness we have erected. ... Marilyn French

[katie hunter]

Originally Posted by nhawk

Anyone determined to find another person or group inferior can always find whole lists of grounds that demonstrate inferiority because we are all inferior to the ideals of humanness we have erected. ... Marilyn French

That didn't make any sense. We're talking about a product here. Just wow.

[BirdOPrey5]

It's obvious no one is going to change anyone's opinions in this thread so no one should be trying to. Let people speak their peace and move on. There is no point in engaging in debate here.

[Necrovaris]

Originally Posted by katie hunter

their staff didn't like someone who is active on their community and critic their product yet that person didn't buy their product, they would rather get rid of that person.

I don't think thats true at all.

I believe you were originally warned or placed into moderation over this thread: http://xenforo.com/community/threads...xenforo.64602/ If I recall you kept re-posting it after it was locked, and then posted something up about the staff, both of which are against the rules (though looks like theyve deleted all those extra threads), so you only had yourself to blame for that.

You then only noticed recently as evident from your recent posts here and kicked off about it. You posted snippets from a ticket with the staff, but i'm pretty sure you only showed the ticket replies that backed up your arguements, for the staff to go from having you in moderation to deciding to ban your account, you must have done or said something to antagonise and provoke the situation.

Maybe post the whole ticket up? So we can see what really happened and not just your choice clippings.

Anyway what am I getting at. I don't think any of your arguements are valid, they're just what you want to post to try and rubbish XenForo due to them banning you for your own fault.

[Paul M]

We have no interest in why someone may have been restricted or banned from other sites.
It is not our concern, nor could we verify the truth or change the result - do not continue down that route, the posts will be removed and if it persists, further action taken.

[katie hunter]

Originally Posted by Necrovaris

I don't think thats true at all.

I believe you were originally warned or placed into moderation over this thread: http://xenforo.com/community/threads...xenforo.64602/ If I recall you kept re-posting it after it was locked, and then posted something up about the staff, both of which are against the rules (though looks like theyve deleted all those extra threads), so you only had yourself to blame for that.

You then only noticed recently as evident from your recent posts here and kicked off about it. You posted snippets from a ticket with the staff, but i'm pretty sure you only showed the ticket replies that backed up your arguements, for the staff to go from having you in moderation to deciding to ban your account, you must have done or said something to antagonise and provoke the situation.

Maybe post the whole ticket up? So we can see what really happened and not just your choice clippings.

Anyway what am I getting at. I don't think any of your arguements are valid, they're just what you want to post to try and rubbish XenForo due to them banning you for your own fault.

You know, I do like how you love to twist stories and make stuff up while changing the topic about XF as a product. As much as how Brogan, a XF staff saying lies to justify XF as a product when i never bought the product in the first place. But seriously, if you know better, some of VB moderators here knows about that story which is totally irrelevant to XF.

You don't have any rights to post nonsense filled with lies just to please XF as a product.

You can't change my mind nor my opinion about XF, I already said I joined XF on Sep 20, 2012 and never bought the product.

Move on.

[KW802]

Originally Posted by katie hunter

What about the inferior search function ? Why would they charge for a superior search function when they can include it in their core product, after all, they want to sell a good product, right ? I think anyone who stumble upon the XF search addon/plugin, will say "Why am I buying a search addon that should be part of the core function of XF? Are they giving me a product with a weak search function ?"

The search add-on is supported Sphinx compatibility, the same type of add-on for Sphinx that is available for vBulletin and others with the difference being that the XF add-on is being supported as an official product. The stock search function can't really be considered "inferior" when it is the same type of stock search functionality as vB3/vB4 & others.

When buying vB4, did you question why you were being given a product with a weak search function? After all, as you know, vB4's own search needs a little help sometimes as well...

I use a Sphinx plugin for vb 4.x and it wasn't complicated to install server side, then install the plugin and run re-index. Then after that, everything ran on its own. I haven't tested Vb 5.x though which comes already with it.

It might not be urgent to use it atm but it is a very nice and essential feature in my opinion for Discourse. Many webmasters love to use Sphinx search because they know how powerfull and light it is when it comes to indexing millions of data and searching.

[katie hunter]

Originally Posted by KW802

The search add-on is supported Sphinx compatibility, the same type of add-on for Sphinx that is available for vBulletin and others with the difference being that the XF add-on is being supported as an official product. The stock search function can't really be considered "inferior" when it is the same type of stock search functionality as vB3/vB4 & others.

When buying vB4, did you question why you were being given a product with a weak search function? After all, as you know, vB4's own search needs a little help sometimes as well...

Yes, that is for VB 4.x but we know VB 5.x uses now Sphinx search, Vbulletin learned what would be best to use for search results and they've integrated Sphinx into VB 5.x moving forward.

On the other hands, XF is selling a product with a weak search built into its core and if you want the product to perform better, you have to buy a search addon that should have been part of the core function of XF not a plugin in the first place. That tells you a lot actually, that the XF developers think that by spending an x amount of time developing a proper function, they had the right to separate it from the main software and sell it as a plugin. I would never encourage this scheme.

I would encourage seeing new and complex solid features being sold as an addon like a "Gallery" for instance but not something that should be part of the core software.

This is like how Xbox 1 said we will start applying a new policy for those who bought used games, they would have to pay a certain fee to play those used games. Guess who won later E3 ? Playstation 4. That is how the market is, customers doesn't like it when they are being taken advantage of. They look for what is best and cost effective.

[Necrovaris]

Originally Posted by Paul M

We have no interest in why someone may have been restricted or banned from other sites.
It is not our concern, nor could we verify the truth or change the result - do not continue down that route, the posts will be removed and if it persists, further action taken.

The point is valid though is it not? I think Katie is so blinded by rage at being banned from XenForo she can't see the product for what it is, despite her own critisisms and claims countering her own arguements!

Originally Posted by katie hunter

You don't have any rights to post

Well, actually I have every right to post my opinion, as you seem to constantly remind others you are allowed to post yours.

But I know what I saw when you posted those threads and the fallout from Digitalpoint. I still assert my possition that you were banned from XenForo through your own actions, and now the only reaction to being banned you have is to try and rubbish the product, so none of your arguements carry any weight.

[KW802]

Originally Posted by katie hunter

Yes, that is for VB 4.x but we know VB 5.x uses now Sphinx search, Vbulletin learned what would be best to use for search results and they've integrated Sphinx into VB 5.x moving forward.

On the other hands, XF is selling a product with a weak search built into its core and if you want the product to perform better, you have to buy a search addon that should be part of the core function not a plugin in the first place. That tells you a lot actually, that the developers think that by spending more time developing a proper function, they had the right to separate it from the main software and sell it as a plugin.

So, yes, you did question why vB4 had an "inferior" search function then?

In regards to XF, what it tells me is that the developers were realistic in that most forum installs aren't likely to even have Sphinx installed on the server and by separating the Sphinx add-on coding it allows for a leaner core at a lower price point while also offering an option for those customers who might need. You're right, that does tell us a lot.