[Max Taxable]

Originally Posted by Mark.B

Honestly, this thread makes me laugh.

These chosen are happy with vB5 - whether you like it or not.

Why can't you all accept that some people might just be happy with their choice, and the fact that you don't approve of that choice doesn't matter one jot?

Nobody's NOT accepting it. We all know ignorance is bliss.

What, you have some problem with actual facts being posted?

[Mark.B]

Originally Posted by Max Taxable

Nobody's NOT accepting it. We all know ignorance is bliss.

What, you have some problem with actual facts being posted?

You need to understand that your OPINION is not necessarily the same as FACT, and that people who disagree with you are not "ignorant".

[Digital Jedi]

I got the impression, from reading this thread in particular, and from reading the site in general, that anyone who get's vB5 is either inexperienced or ignorant or some variation of "not smart". I don't get that. A year or so ago, someone on TAZ suggested I keep my opinions to myself because I didn't have a board with millions of members and threads, like he did. I thought that was pretty tasteless, and expressed it as such.

I've only been back a week, and it seems like if vB5 gets mentioned once, it becomes a pile on. I'm not saying it isn't in anyone's rights to do that. I just wonder why it has to happen every thread. And I wonder why users who've decided to go with it should have their motives or intellect (or website) impuned.

[Mark.B]

Originally Posted by Digital Jedi

I got the impression, from reading this thread in particular, and from reading the site in general, that anyone who get's vB5 is either inexperienced or ignorant or some variation of "not smart". I don't get that. A year or so ago, someone on TAZ suggested I keep my opinions to myself because I didn't have a board with millions of members and threads, like he did. I thought that was pretty tasteless, and expressed it as such.

I've only been back a week, and it seems like if vB5 gets mentioned once, it becomes a pile on. I'm not saying it isn't in anyone's rights to do that. I just wonder why it has to happen every thread. And I wonder why users who've decided to go with it should have their motives or intellect (or website) impuned.

Absolutely my thoughts as well. It happens on other websites too. The same group of people seem to have made it their business to insult, belittle and demean anyone who refuses to acknowledge a certain viewpoint as being the only possible truth.

There have even been cases of people signing up to customer sites and haranguing the owner about how awful vBulletin is and how they must be stupid to use it, etc.

It's really quite disturbing at times.

There's plenty of software I don't like but I don't question the intelligence of people who use it. Different solutions work for different people.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Digital Jedi

I got the impression, from reading this thread in particular, and from reading the site in general, that anyone who get's vB5 is either inexperienced or ignorant or some variation of "not smart". I don't get that. A year or so ago, someone on TAZ suggested I keep my opinions to myself because I didn't have a board with millions of members and threads, like he did. I thought that was pretty tasteless, and expressed it as such.

I've only been back a week, and it seems like if vB5 gets mentioned once, it becomes a pile on. I'm not saying it isn't in anyone's rights to do that. I just wonder why it has to happen every thread. And I wonder why users who've decided to go with it should have their motives or intellect (or website) impuned.

I think that's because most developers are pissed that it's pretty much impossible to make plugins for vBulletin 5 because of its limitations. We WANT TO create stuff for vBulletin 5 but we simply can't.

[Max Taxable]

Originally Posted by Mark.B

You need to understand that your OPINION is not necessarily the same as FACT, and that people who disagree with you are not "ignorant".

Except, as far as this thread goes, everything posted about v5 IS factual. It's not opinion. You can't debate the topic so you try to make it something it's not.

And for the most part yes, it is uninformed people who get themselves caught in the v5 trap. That's ignorance and it does not mean these people are stupid. They are merely ignorant of the product and the consequences of installing it.

It just is what it is and no amount of touchy-feely, apologist bromide and fake testimonials is going to change it. vBulletin 5 is a piece of crap, it is SO far away from what the product has been and was, it's related to vBulletin in name only.

You're not the post police. If you don't like what people post, there's a very handy block feature here.

[cellarius]

Now Mark, how many threads are there on vb.com or here on vb.org praising vB5, and how many are there made by people missing features (and getting told "that's not yet in vB5), complaining about sluggishnes, finding existing features buggy (and get told after two years "that will be in the next version, isn't that great?") and unfunctional ("that's the way it was designed")?

And how many of those users said "I trusted vB, because it always was a great product, but OMG, if only I had read all this before upgrading, now, how can I go back to vB4"?

[Digital Jedi]

Originally Posted by Max Taxable

Except, as far as this thread goes, everything posted about v5 IS factual. It's not opinion. You can't debate the topic so you try to make it something it's not.

And for the most part yes, it is uninformed people who get themselves caught in the v5 trap. That's ignorance and it does not mean these people are stupid. They are merely ignorant of the product and the consequences of installing it.

What if they don't care? I mentioned this before, but we're not the majority of vBulletin owners. We like modifications. Most forum owners only ever use the stock features. If the posts work. If user accounts are created successfully. If people can search. Then that's all they'll ever really demand be functional. Not having hooks will be a moot point for them. Factor in that they've never been part of these communities or know anything about past versions extensibility, and for them, the fact is, vBulletin is working for them.

I think we get caught up in the popularity of the modifications here. What was the last count of people who had vBulletin installed? What was the fraction of users who actually used plugins? That's not to say it isn't a solid community. But we're hardly vB's bread n' butter. You can debate if that's fair or not. But you can't really declare it's horrible-ilty as unilateral fact, when it's what you want out of the software that determines that. If someone else is getting everything they need out of the software, that's neither inexperience, naiviety or ignorance. That's just having different needs.

[HM666]

Originally Posted by ozzy47

Well, the users that moved, made a choice and moved, and either stay because they like it, or they have to because they upgraded a live site, without taking a backup, and can not downgrade.

Originally Posted by cellarius

And how many of those users said "I trusted vB, because it always was a great product, but OMG, if only I had read all this before upgrading, now, how can I go back to vB4"?

These two statements cannot be more true of the stated facts about vBulletin 5. In most cases I've seen people who upgraded did not research before the upgrade and they upgraded a live site and did not perform the upgrade in a controlled test environment. Then not too long after that they come back and post on either this site or vBulletin.com asking how they can put vBulletin 5 back to vBulletin 4 because they are now losing members, revenue, & traffic on their site BECAUSE of the upgrade and the bugs that were incurred with vBulletin 5.

@Mark I never said anyone using vBulletin 5 was stupid nor did I say they were ignorant. I simply have said in threads to people that were trying to decide what to install that vBulletin 5 is KNOWN to be buggy at best. I simply think quite a few people are misinformed and vBulletin (Internet Brands) is surely not going to inform them that the product is full of bugs and has many performance issues. I'll say to you what I said to Zachery in another thread. I realize that you are probably paid to be a vBulletin cheerleader but I'll not recommend a product to people that I believe is buggy or that will cause them a loss of members & revenue.

As for stalking people on other sites and posting about vBulletin 5 being buggy, that is not something I do personally. I really do not have time for that kind of immature 12 year old type of mentality and don't participate in it. I rarely post on vBulletin.com and when I do its related to my license or a problem I have with what I'm running on my site and that is it. But people come to this site & vBulletin.com to find out about vBulletin and ask questions about what they should run, how they should run it and what they should install etc. And they should get the full story about the product as a whole whether vBulletin or Internet Brands likes it or not. If Internet Brands has such a problem with what people are saying about their product why don't they just fix it and make things right instead of ignoring the problems?

[Max Taxable]

Originally Posted by Mark.B

I don't like but I don't question the intelligence of people who use it.

And nobody's done that or is doing that. Strawman much?

[Max Taxable]

Originally Posted by Digital Jedi

What if they don't care?

Mind over matter. If they don't mind, it don't matter. They probably won't be commenting or complaining.

[HM666]

Originally Posted by Max Taxable

Mind over matter. If they don't mind, it don't matter. They probably won't be commenting or complaining.

Very true you will not see them posting if that is the case.

[Digital Jedi]

Originally Posted by Max Taxable

And nobody's done that or is doing that. Strawman much?

I'm the one who brought this up, actually. It's, basically, the vibe I've been getting since I've been back. Feeling sorry for their poor members. Saying they only installed it because of their inexperience. That's just this thread.

[Max Taxable]

Originally Posted by Digital Jedi

I'm the one who brought this up, actually. It's, basically, the vibe I've been getting since I've been back. Feeling sorry for their poor members. Saying they only installed it because of their inexperience. That's just this thread.

Nobody's asserted that's 100 percent of the time. But is IS most of the time. We know this from following the topic here and at vBcom.

People by and large leap before looking, and especially when the cliff has a trusted brand name like vBulletin. It's just human nature. This does not impugn their intellect in any way. They just naturally want the latest and greatest thing.

Saying someone is "ignorant" isn't a insult. It means they don't have knowledge of a thing, a place, whatever. It does not assert they are stupid, or unintelligent in any way.

Poor ole picked on v5. Mean ole bullies out there telling the truth about it. Well, if it wasn't a piece of crap the mean ole bullies wouldn't be trying to do a public service by spreading factual information about it.

We might be saving some fella from making a mistake he'll long regret.

[Digital Jedi]

You can make fun of vB5 all you want. That's not really my issue. My issue is twofold. One, why do people who've already made the choice to use 5 have to be regarded as, however you wish to phrase it, lacking? Who does that benefit? Did one of the forums mentioned express especial difficulty themselves, are are we just assuming they do/did?

And two, why does it have to be ubiquitous? Okay, we want to save people from making mistakes they'll regret. That's fine and I can agree with that. But "the software is crap" isn't especially informative. And it's generally the first answer given to a question that wasn't necessarily asked. The first thing you have to do is figure out what the user wants out of vB5. Them tell him exactly why that won't work. It's not a matter of being "nice" to vB5. It's a matter of actually making the info useful to the user asking the question, and not having to say "here we go again" every time the subject comes up.