[HM666]

Originally Posted by Digital Jedi

But "the software is crap" isn't especially informative. And it's generally the first answer given to a question that wasn't necessarily asked. The first thing you have to do is figure out what the user wants out of vB5. Them tell him exactly why that won't work. It's not a matter of being "nice" to vB5. It's a matter of actually making the info useful to the user asking the question, and not having to say "here we go again" every time the subject comes up.

This is a very good point which I had not personally considered, but my first thought is that I see most people who install it no matter what they want to get out of the software regret installing vBulletin 5 after the fact. If they installed it on a live board then its a can of worms that a lot of them are stuck with or they migrate completely out of vBulletin to another software altogether.

[Digital Jedi]

I don't have any problem warning people off of vB5, but it's not going to be especially effective if it's just on our word and if we ask no questions. Like, do we know if they've already bought a license? If we ask, and find out they have, then we should stress the importance of running this on a demo board on their same server and really testing and retesting that upgrade, in addition to finding out what modifications won't make the journey. If they haven't bought the upgrade yet, then we should point them to the demo site, and the vB.com forums/bug tracker. Find out what it is they want out of the software and then make recommendations, so they don't waste their money. Let them see what the issues are, and then let them make the final decision as to what they should do.

These are the same steps we'd take for any modification. Why not for the core script itself?

[HM666]

Originally Posted by Digital Jedi

I don't have any problem warning people off of vB5, but it's not going to be especially effective if it's just on our word and if we ask no questions. Like, do we know if they've already bought a license? If we ask, and find out they have, then we should stress the importance of running this on a demo board on their same server and really testing and retesting that upgrade, in addition to finding out what modifications won't make the journey. If they haven't bought the upgrade yet, then we should point them to the demo site, and the vB.com forums/bug tracker. Find out what it is they want out of the software and then make recommendations, so they don't waste their money. Let them see what the issues are, and then let them make the final decision as to what they should do.

These are the same steps we'd take for any modification. Why not for the core script itself?

That is a very good point. Then if they make a decision to run it and do not like it and complain about the problems they really have no one to blame but themselves.

[Max Taxable]

Originally Posted by Digital Jedi

You can make fun of vB5 all you want. That's not really my issue. My issue is twofold. One, why do people who've already made the choice to use 5 have to be regarded as, however you wish to phrase it, lacking? Who does that benefit? Did one of the forums mentioned express especial difficulty themselves, are are we just assuming they do/did?

And two, why does it have to be ubiquitous? Okay, we want to save people from making mistakes they'll regret. That's fine and I can agree with that. But "the software is crap" isn't especially informative. And it's generally the first answer given to a question that wasn't necessarily asked. The first thing you have to do is figure out what the user wants out of vB5. Them tell him exactly why that won't work. It's not a matter of being "nice" to vB5. It's a matter of actually making the info useful to the user asking the question, and not having to say "here we go again" every time the subject comes up.

Except, in this particular thread there has been good, informative and detailed information posted, not just subjective ubiquitous stuff. In fact, that's most of the time where v5 is concerned.

One, why do people who've already made the choice to use 5 have to be regarded as, however you wish to phrase it, lacking?

I've never seen that, thought that or said anything like that.

Look, 10s of thousands of people bought the Yugo too. A few even liked it. That did not make the Yugo any less of a piece of crap. Except unlike v5, the Yugo didn't have a Cadillac emblem on it.

[Replicant]

I have experienced this first hand. I jumped in blind and un-informed based on VB reputation in the forums game. When I was researching and learning how to get around in VB5, I learned from reading most of the posts on VB.org about VB5 NOT to ask about mods. If people come here for mods, the general answer is "there is not a mod for that at this time". True and concise. It is usually followed up with the "no hooks" and "vb5 is crap" comments that are really not necessary. There are a few members on here that seem to be really helpful with questions on VB5 as far as issues go, tips on coding for VB5, and recommendations on whether to "code on" or give up because it's not going to happen for a novice coder or beginner.

The fact of the matter is, once on VB5, you're ON VB5 unless you can revert to vb4 yourself, pay someone to do it, or buy IPB. If you have something to say that helps, great, but going negative on the product in help threads is un-productive. They are on VB5 and probably going to stay there, and they're going to need some help.

As far as recommendation on what version to use goes, laying out the facts professional and positive fashion and letting the customer decide is the way I believe it should be, so the customer can make an informed decision.

Don't get me wrong, I like a good argument, and sometimes, I even argue when I know I'm wrong because some of you guys are quite entertaining and the reason I'm on the forums is for entertainment. There is a place for opinionated discussions but the VB5 programming and help discussion threads isn't it.

[Digital Jedi]

Originally Posted by Max Taxable

Except, in this particular thread there has been good, informative and detailed information posted, not just subjective ubiquitous stuff. In fact, that's most of the time where v5 is concerned.

Ubiquitous, as in, every where, all the time. Even if it's not the most appropriate response to a given thread's question.

I've never seen that, thought that or said anything like that.

What other implication can I infer? Inexperienced or uninformed implies a deficit of some kind, right?

Look, 10s of thousands of people bought the Yugo too. A few even liked it. That did not make the Yugo any less of a piece of crap. Except unlike v5, the Yugo didn't have a Cadillac emblem on it.

See my previous post. That's not the argument I'm making.

This is sorta what I'm getting at. I'm not defending vB5. I'm taking issue with the reactionary way the subject is broached. Somewhat backed up by the fact that even though I feel like I've made it clear I'm not defending vB5, you're still trying to convince me how bad it is.

[HM666]

Originally Posted by Replicant

As far as recommendation on what version to use goes, laying out the facts professional and positive fashion and letting the customer decide is the way I believe it should be, so the customer can make an informed decision.

And you have hit on a VERY good point here. Let the CUSTOMER make the choice as in vBulletin/Internet Brands SHOULD be the ones to INFORM the public about the possibilities, issues, bugs etc at hand with the software, but instead they are ambiguous at best with information and pretty much tell people just buy it and see. There really should not be consumers who feel like they are going to allow another consumer fall into a trap if they do not say something about the software to someone before they get started. If the software was stable and worked wonderfully we would not all be having this conversation to begin with.

[Zachery]

Who is telling people to buy it and see? We highly encourage people to try a demo (both vB4 and vB5 are available) and if they're unsure to try cloud if they want to see a long term vB5 site (outside of the 72 hours demo timer).

Plus you're not locked into a specific version once you buy.

[Mark.B]

Originally Posted by HM666

vBulletin/Internet Brands SHOULD be the ones to INFORM the public about the possibilities, issues, bugs etc at hand with the software

Can you please post links to where Invision Power Board, Woltlab Burning Board or XenForo provide this? And not just a bug tracker, because I can link you to one of those for vBulletin.

Originally Posted by HM666

but instead they are ambiguous at best with information

Again, could we have some examples please?

Originally Posted by HM666

and pretty much tell people just buy it and see.

And one more time - could we have an example please?

[Max Taxable]

Originally Posted by Replicant

I jumped in blind and un-informed based on VB reputation in the forums game.

You are to be congratulated. VERY few people admit this after the fact.

You're also a poster boy for how expensive and destructive the divorce can be, once you're married to that dog, v5.

You've..... SEEN things we people wouldn't believe.... (Roy Batty reference)

Originally Posted by Digital Jedi

Inexperienced or uninformed implies a deficit of some kind, right?

A deficit of information, not the person. Look at what I was answering vs. what you actually said.

[Replicant]

Originally Posted by Max Taxable

You are to be congratulated. VERY few people admit this after the fact.

Thanks. I'm not ashamed. Remember, I lived, I learned, and I like VB5

Originally Posted by Max Taxable

You're also a poster boy for how expensive and destructive the divorce can be, once you're married to that dog, v5.

I don't understand this statement................You're a poster boy!!!!!

Originally Posted by Max Taxable

You've..... SEEN things we people wouldn't believe.... (Roy Batty reference)

I think we both agree that was a great movie!

[ozzy47]

1) How far do you think vBulletin would have come without any additional modifications coded for it?

2) If these so called people that don't want modificatons, why are they on here asking if there is this or that available as a mod, since the core does not have it?

3) Is there not many features that are in vB3 and vB4 not in vB5?

4) You really think that 72 hours is enough time to install, learn the workings, and making a informed decision on weather vB5 is for you?

4a) If you feel it is enough time, then explain why is it said user tries the demo, buys and installs vB5, then makes all kind of threads on vB.com about errors in the product.

5) Why with so many missing features that were available in previous versions, left to die, while developers work on adding new features that were never in the product?

6) Why instead of adding new features, why are the bugs that have been in the software from day one still around, instead of making the product bug free first?

7) Why were there alpha/beta testers, they expressed their opinions on many things like the hook system, but their cries for help went to the wayside?

8) If vB5 was so great, how come there are so many users looking for ways to downgrade to vB4?

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Lets look at the stats:

vB4 was released as Gold in December of 2009. In December of 2011, two years after it's release, these were the stats. (source, https://web.archive.org/web/20111226...play.php?f=198 and https://web.archive.org/web/20111225...play.php?f=212)

vBulletin 4.x Add-ons: 1359
vBulletin 4.x Template Modifications: 473
vBulletin 4.x Styles: 313

Now lets look at vB5, two years after it's release.

vBulletin 5.x Products & Extensions: 53
vBulletin 5.x Template Modifications: 21
vBulletin 5.x Styles: 21

Also two years after vB5 is released, the market share of vB5 installs is only at 1.4% of all vBulletin instillation's, which shows, even the member base using vBulletin don't like the direction it went in. (source, https://tools.digitalpoint.com/cookie-search)

Not to mention that many users/coders have moved away from vBulletin to other platforms.

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The members ( or naysayers ) on this site are not like the haters on sites like TAZ, we here loved the product for what it once was. We stuck around through the vB4 debacle, hoping that it would get better and it did. The development community proved that, by sticking around and making mods for the product.

But alas, IB and their infinite wisdom decided, well the customers were stupid enough to put up with us ( IB ) making a complete mess out of the software once, so hey, lets try it again. This did not sit well with man, many members, and they decided to jump ship. Those of us that are still here are because we like the previous versions, but not vB5.

We will tell anyone asking if vB5 is good, and if they should go with it a solid NO. What I tend to tell people is install vB4, get the site to where you want. Then make a test site with the backup from your vB4 site and then upgrade the test site to vB5, and see what it is all about. This is because once you go with vB5 you are stuck with it. Unless of course you want to pay some one in the range of $500 to downgrade it, or purchase another forum platform, move the site there, then move it to vB4.

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Bottom line is, according to stats, forum software users, as well as developers do not like vB5, the market share of people running vb5 speaks for it's self, https://tools.digitalpoint.com/cookie-search

Also with IB introducing the Cloud, it is obvious they care nothing for the development community, since you can not modify anything on the site other than some CSS. So IMO, at this rate the development community will be fully dead on here.

Look at the participation on this site:

Not as many people here anymore at all.

Take for instance MOTM voting:
Oct 2010 186 people voted.
Oct 2011 134 people voted.
Oct 2012 48 people voted.
Oct 2013 35 people voted.
Oct 2014 43 people voted.

So as you can see there is a significant drop in participation there.

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Lets go back to today's date, 2012
https://web.archive.org/web/20120123...orum/index.php

155 members online. Now you will be hard pressed to see it over 50.

[Max Taxable]

Originally Posted by Replicant

I don't understand this statement....You're a poster boy!!!!!??

It's not derogatory, it's a American idiom, pardon. Means prime example. In this case, a prime example of one who knows the divorce from this v5 pig you unwittingly married will be too costly and painful to do. You're stuck with it, so you have to like it.

Originally Posted by Digital Jedi

This is sorta what I'm getting at. I'm not defending vB5. I'm taking issue with the reactionary way the subject is broached. Somewhat backed up by the fact that even though I feel like I've made it clear I'm not defending vB5, you're still trying to convince me how bad it is.

You definitely have the wrong impression on the bolded. Me saying how bad it is wasn't for your benefit, i well know you know. It's for those who don't and I can only hope they google before marrying that v5 pig.

There's been nothing "reactionary" in this thread, except for the replies by one of the employees of IB.

[Digital Jedi]

Originally Posted by Max Taxable

A deficit of information, not the person. Look at what I was answering vs. what you actually said.

But that's what I'm saying. Intention and implication aren't always in tune. If I'm getting that vibe, just imagine what the owner/potential owner of a vB5 board is thinking.

Again, there's nothing wrong with telling people not to buy the version. No one's saying don't share your opinion, or express your concerns. All I'm saying is, once that's done, every thread that even broaches the subject doesn't have to be derailed into an in depth discussion as to why it's so bad, and it doesn't have to be the requisite battle round of supporters v. haters. Not just because it gets tiresome, but because it's probably off-putting to new visitors. The best threads in this forum have, and always will be, the one's where we help people make up their own minds. Even if we think they're wrong.

[ozzy47]

Originally Posted by Digital Jedi

But that's what I'm saying. Intention and implication aren't always in tune. If I'm getting that vibe, just imagine what the owner/potential owner of a vB5 board is thinking.

Again, there's nothing wrong with telling people not to buy the version. No one's saying don't share your opinion, or express your concerns. All I'm saying is, once that's done, every thread that even broaches the subject doesn't have to be derailed into an in depth discussion as to why it's so bad, and it doesn't have to be the requisite battle round of supporters v. haters. Not just because it gets tiresome, but because it's probably off-putting to new visitors. The best threads in this forum have, and always will be, the one's where we help people make up their own minds. Even if we think they're wrong.

No one is telling anyone not to buy it, as they have to, simply stating not to run it from the get go, or upgrade a live site to it.

Yes it should be discussed on how bad it is, so the person can make a informed derision to run it, not just run it because IB says it's the leading software.