[Gemma]

@nhawk

You currently release modifications on both platforms, is there much difference between the two in terms of coding?

[JacquiiDesigns]

Originally Posted by katie hunter

Adore XF vs bringing negativity ? Do you even see how contradicting you are (: like seriously. Sorry i am not a hypocrite.

And I am not talking to you now, I was talking to Gemma, better work on your logo design instead of putting fake words http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showp...1&postcount=63 it is offensive to web design when you use complex words that aren't even justifiable. This actually tells me few things about your character.

There you go again Katie: Nothing of substance to add so you throw in a totally irrelevant insult.
Here's a suggestion for you ==> Go back to school. I said ABHOR Xenforo, which you obviously do. Whether you know the definition of abhor is obviously at issue.

For your educational purposes - enlighten yourself at http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/abhor - where you will clearly see the meaning:

Abhor:
to regard with extreme repugnance | to loathe

Furthermore - Please *try* to refrain from slinging insidiously horrid insults my way.
It makes you look like a buffoon. It truly does Katie.

Next...

J.

[nhawk]

Originally Posted by Gemma

@nhawk

You currently release modifications on both platforms, is there much difference between the two in terms of coding?

Between vB3/4 and XF, there is a fair learning curve but nothing too wild. I'll be the first to admit that I am still learning the XF way of doing things and I discover things with each new add-on I do.

At this point I am comfortable programming for either platform. But I have to say I prefer coding for XF. I've been swamped with people moving to XF and wanting my custom mods converted so I'm getting a lot of practice.

[JacquiiDesigns]

Originally Posted by nhawk

But I have to say I prefer coding for XF. I've been swamped with people moving to XF and wanting my custom mods converted so I'm getting a lot of practice.

Congrats on the success!
Might I ask why you prefer coding for XF?

J.

[nhawk]

Originally Posted by JacquiiDesigns

Congrats on the success!
Might I ask why you prefer coding for XF?

J.

There are quite a few reasons. But one of the biggest ones is the TMS (template modification system). I can manipulate templates without ever actually touching the templates. So an upgrade to XF has no effect on my add-ons.

Another is the direct access to literally every function in XF. It cuts coding time considerably once you get the idea of how XF works.

And finally, if done correctly one add-on can't interfere with another. So I have very little worry about a mod conflicting with another one. But I still slip up once in a while and have to correct a couple of things here and there with this one.

The entire process is almost like opening a kitchen cabinet and picking what you need to put together a good meal.

[BirdOPrey5]

Originally Posted by Barcham

If the founders of XF were former employees at VB, why were they not bound by a non-disclosure/non-competition clause in their contracts? I've been working in the computer business as a hardware specialist for 35 years and such contracts are a standard thing, especially in the software end of the business. If they were bound by such a contract, VB needs better lawyers who would make certain they were enforced. IF they were not bound by such a contract, VB/IB made a serious error and tough luck - deal with it.

As we saw from the documents released during the lawsuit they were bound by a 1 year non-compete clause.

XenForo didn't become a thing until the day the non-compete expired.

Part of the lawsuit was the fact VB felt this meant they were competing / breaking the agreement by working on XenForo (before it had a public name.)

The reality is however that the precedent set in both the State of California (where Internet Brands is based) and the UK make non-compete clauses unenforceable as a practical matter. Had those been the only charges in the lawsuit IB may have had the moral highground they would have easily lost the case.

[katie hunter]

Originally Posted by nhawk

There are quite a few reasons. But one of the biggest ones is the TMS (template modification system). I can manipulate templates without ever actually touching the templates. So an upgrade to XF has no effect on my add-ons.

Another is the direct access to literally every function in XF. It cuts coding time considerably once you get the idea of how XF works.

And finally, if done correctly one add-on can't interfere with another. So I have very little worry about a mod conflicting with another one. But I still slip up once in a while and have to correct a couple of things here and there with this one.

The entire process is almost like opening a kitchen cabinet and picking what you need to put together a good meal.

But to make it clear, it is not XF, it is the Zend framework http://www.zend.com/en/ and since XF back-end is built using zend, imagine i have a product back-end built using Zend, Cakephp, Yii or any of these wonderful framework, any web developer familiar with the framework and learn it, can create great addons without affecting the main template or hassle.

So credit is to be given back to Zend framework not XF whereas VB uses its own built framework that is built from ground up.

Originally Posted by BirdOPrey5

As we saw from the documents released during the lawsuit they were bound by a 1 year non-compete clause.

XenForo didn't become a thing until the day the non-compete expired.

Part of the lawsuit was the fact VB felt this meant they were competing / breaking the agreement by working on XenForo (before it had a public name.)

The reality is however that the precedent set in both the State of California (where Internet Brands is based) and the UK make non-compete clauses unenforceable as a practical matter. Had those been the only charges in the lawsuit IB may have had the moral highground they would have easily lost the case.

Just as i describe it, opportunists.

[nhawk]

Originally Posted by katie hunter

But to make it clear, it is not XF, it is the Zend framework http://www.zend.com/en/ and since XF back-end is built using zend, imagine i have a product back-end built using Zend, Cakephp, Yii or any of these wonderful framework, any developer familiar with the framework and learn it, can create great addons without affecting the main template.

So credit is to be given back to Zend framework not XF whereas VB uses its own built framework that is built from ground up.

The Zend framework has nothing to do with what I said and the features I spoke of. I suggest you understand the code before commenting about it.

[katie hunter]

Originally Posted by nhawk

The Zend framework has nothing to do with what I said and the features I spoke of. I suggest you understand the code before commenting about it.

You're building addons/features for XF and they are using a Zend Framework for their back-end. If i hired a web developer expert in using the Zend Framework, it will be very easy for him or her to code any addon or feature for XF b/c it is using Zend framework for its back-end.

[Adrian Schneider]

XF doesn't use that much of Zend Framework...the knowledge isn't as transferable as you'd expect. When people refer to "using" ZF, they mean the full stack framework, particularly the MVC stuff. That is all custom in XF.

Now, if a programmer is competent with Zend Framework, programming is programming, and add-on development for XF is more like regular programming. It's not as random as it is with vBulletin.

[katie hunter]

Originally Posted by Adrian Schneider

XF doesn't use that much of Zend Framework...the knowledge isn't as transferable as you'd expect. When people refer to "using" ZF, they mean the full stack framework, particularly the MVC stuff. That is all custom in XF.

Now, if a programmer is competent with Zend Framework, programming is programming, and add-on development for XF is more like regular programming. It's not as random as it is with vBulletin.

True. http://www.theadminzone.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=78018

Developing XenForo is complete reboot for you, starting with a clean slate from the inception of the project. Was that a bit daunting at first? Or was it all good?

Starting from scratch was a big challenge, but it presented some unique opportunities to do things our own way.

We knew that we had a very limited time scale to get things rolling, so we decided to use Zend Framework to provide specific functionality that would have involved reinventing the wheel if we did it ourselves. This allowed us to get started on actual application code much more quickly than we would have been able to do had we written that stuff ourselves. For example, we make use of Zend_Controller_Request_Http and Zend_Db, as they provide almost precisely what we want, but we wrote our own MVC system as we had a very specific idea of what we wanted to achieve.

As time has gone by, we have unplugged various bits of Zend code and provided our own replacements that better suit our requirements, however there are still Zend components in XenForo for the time being, and they will certainly remain into the 1.x releases, as we don’t see a pressing need to remove them at this point.

I think our decision to make use of a framework (albeit in a limited fashion) has worked out well, as we have been able to spend a lot more time producing front-end functionality and refining the user experience into something really polished and pleasant to use.

The platform we have built surprises me on a daily basis with its stability and flexibility. We are still making major changes behind the scenes in the XenForo code, and yet we are running XenForo.com with a live checkout from SVN that is updated dozens of times every day.

I’m also extremely pleased with the speed at which we are able to build new features, and the way that we can do so without being unduly concerned that new functionality is going to cause existing functionality to fall over unexpectedly.

[Barcham]

Originally Posted by BirdOPrey5

As we saw from the documents released during the lawsuit they were bound by a 1 year non-compete clause.

XenForo didn't become a thing until the day the non-compete expired.

Part of the lawsuit was the fact VB felt this meant they were competing / breaking the agreement by working on XenForo (before it had a public name.)

The reality is however that the precedent set in both the State of California (where Internet Brands is based) and the UK make non-compete clauses unenforceable as a practical matter. Had those been the only charges in the lawsuit IB may have had the moral highground they would have easily lost the case.

I find that surprising. Here in Canada, non-compete clauses are common in the IT realm. I have signed many in my lifetime and generally they include a clause that states any product design based on the intellectual property or product line of the former employer within 'X' years becomes the property of the previous employer. I have always found that to be a reasonable term of a contract. But the law is the law and it there have been precedents set, you have to live with them.

Originally Posted by katie hunter

...

Just as i describe it, opportunists.

I don't consider that to be opportunistic, I consider it to be good business sense and a smart move. If you are skilled in a certain thing and you know what you can put on the market, and you know that you can do so legally and above board, I see nothing wrong with doing so. If you find yourself in a dead end, where you have no room for growth or advancement and the conditions of employment have deteriorated to be not in your favour, there is nothing wrong with branching out on your own. Without such 'opportunists', technology would have ground to a halt decades ago.

I still think their forums are very poorly moderated and more like a kindergarten than a place for adult discussion, however. And that does reflect poorly on the company as a whole in my eyes.

[katie hunter]

Originally Posted by Barcham

I find that surprising. Here in Canada, non-compete clauses are common in the IT realm. I have signed many in my lifetime and generally they include a clause that states any product design based on the intellectual property or product line of the former employer within 'X' years becomes the property of the previous employer. I have always found that to be a reasonable term of a contract. But the law is the law and it there have been precedents set, you have to live with them.



I don't consider that to be opportunistic, I consider it to be good business sense and a smart move. If you are skilled in a certain thing and you know what you can put on the market, and you know that you can do so legally and above board, I see nothing wrong with doing so. If you find yourself in a dead end, where you have no room for growth or advancement and the conditions of employment have deteriorated to be not in your favour, there is nothing wrong with branching out on your own. Without such 'opportunists', technology would have ground to a halt decades ago.

I still think their forums are very poorly moderated and more like a kindergarten than a place for adult discussion, however. And that does reflect poorly on the company as a whole in my eyes.

I wouldn't call them this if they didn't had to resort to bashing and drag the entire Vbulletin community into sympathizing with them when they knew that what they have done would result in a litigation against them, they surely expect it. They also didn't honor the position they were in, they made living from VB for 9 years, as well as gaining fame, and when they had the chance to leave and make XF, they bash it and aimed to split the VB community through their excessive criticize of VB 5.x. Them criticizing VB 5.x to show how XF would be better, is a disgusting move on their behalf.

And now they resort not only to bashing by allowing their community to bash VB constantly, but for their staff to bully and censor as well and they don't even apologize or revise their actions. In my eyes they are unprofessional and their action should be pointed and judged so they can learn that what they did and keep doing is wrong and unprofessional.

Not the type of company i would be proud of. Certainly they lack good communication skills and they've revealed that they don't hold good principles and manners. They obviously didn't like what i say about them on VB and decided to keep the restriction on my profile, they see my comments as troublesome to them and that is why they are insecure.



My conversation with them through tickets, is like running around in a circle, they keep throwing words just to justify their action, and after back and forth for a while i had to ask myself, what is this, is this a company with different level of management or just a regular website selling a product.

[Barcham]

I moderated a rather busy board for 7 years and the way I always looked at it was that membership was a privilege, not a right. If someone did not follow our rules they could choose to leave or have the decision made for them. Personally, I see no reason why someone would remain a member of a board where they did not feel wanted or disagreed with the policies or the way it was run. It's much better to save everyone a lot of frustration and aggravation and to go elsewhere.

[nhawk]

Originally Posted by katie hunter

You're building addons/features for XF and they are using a Zend Framework for their back-end. If i hired a web developer expert in using the Zend Framework, it will be very easy for him or her to code any addon or feature for XF b/c it is using Zend framework for its back-end.

I think you need to understand what the framework is. The framework is a set of common, every day routines that are used in just about every program out there. The entire idea behind the framework IS to speed development without having to write those from scratch.

Kier gave an excellent example in an interview. The DB routines in the Zend Framework. Why on earth would a developer want to reinvent the wheel and write their own DB routine when it's all available in a package?

In my case a lesser example would be in one of the first add-ons I released for XF. I could not find a routine to check if a node was a forum. So I wrote my own routine always knowing there had to be one in XF and to keep an eye out for it. A while later while working on something totally unrelated I found it and had one of those 'I could've had a V8' moments. The code I wrote was removed and replaced with the call to XF.

Compare the Zend Framework to Microsoft's .NET framework or C++ redistributables. Just about every program on your computer (if it's a windows computer) uses those. And for sure every windows program I've ever written use those. They are all common routines that interface with windows. People could write their own, but why on earth would they want to? There is nothing wrong with using them and in many cases they are required.