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  #16  
Old 05 Jul 2016, 21:23
fenderbob fenderbob is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Replicant View Post
It would be nice to see IB offer a dev/demo license only for the third party developers. It might spur some third party products that could possibly boost sales on their end. But this is probably just a pipe dream.
I wonder how we could petition IB to do this. Unless their goal is to totally destroy vBulletin, I can't understand why they wouldn't be open to something like this. I'm a graphic designer and when I was in school, $5000+ software was available for free under a student license. It had some limitations...but still.

I'm pretty sure there would be a huge market for mods and addons for vB5. With social media out the way it is, forums have to keep up or they are going to eventually die. Forums need to have the bells and whistles of social media sites and apparently you aren't going to get those with the software right out of the box.

It doesn't make any sense at all to penalize developers by making them pay full price for a new license if they are only going to use it for tests or to further develop the software. Developers are actually doing IB a HUGE favor by making 3rd party products for it. If vB5 had a ton of addons and mods--more so that its competitors--that would be a definite selling point.

Last edited by fenderbob; 05 Jul 2016 at 21:28.
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  #17  
Old 05 Jul 2016, 21:46
nhawk nhawk is offline
 
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Originally Posted by fenderbob View Post
....
I'm pretty sure there would be a huge market for mods and addons for vB5.
....
I wouldn't bet on it.

Commercial Forum Platforms - relative marketshare

January 2014:
vBulletin 68.3%
xenForo 20.1%
Invision 11.5%

Today:
vBulletin 41.9%
xenForo 36.1%
Invision 16.8%

That's about a 39% decrease in 2 years. And I've been tracking this on a different scale myself since 2012 (vB5's release) and there's actually been somewhere around a 73% decrease in market share since then.

And with today's stats, vB5 is only at about 3.2% of all vB installations.
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Last edited by nhawk; 05 Jul 2016 at 21:56.
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  #18  
Old 05 Jul 2016, 21:55
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I doubt very seriously Internet Brands would take this request seriously. It took 3+ years to get the hook system re-implemented. Besides that, only a small percentage of forums use modifications on their sites aside from styles/themes. I don't have any idea what the ratio is of cloud customers vs self hosted is, but mods can't be installed on the cloud so that is one whole section of the customer base that wouldn't benefit at all from the third party development.
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  #19  
Old 05 Jul 2016, 22:02
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TheLastSuperman TheLastSuperman is offline
 
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vB5 you say? I'm still waiting...

One day perhaps! Until then I'm fine with vB3 or vB4 so are all my clients aside from a few who made the leap to 5 before they knew me etc.

Yes it's possible but more trouble than vB3 and 4 were, takes more time and will cost more money than the same mod in vB3 or 4 plain and simple, feel free to point out examples otherwise.

I know you can add in hooks where you want but good golly molly we had them in just the right places in vB3 then vB4 but now we must do as we've been told many times in the past, submit a request via Jira (I still love you Paul but no, someone should be paid to think ahead and add/re-add where common sense says they should be or were prior to a certain degree) when we're not being paid a penny to submit anything - mutually beneficial someone will argue haha I say, haha! I'm here to help to a certain degree within reason just like any of you and I do it gladly however a wife and three kids demand my time when I'm not working though, if not for that I'd gladly sit all day and submit jira tickets so would others I'd imagine.

The company had the system removed a while back (why???? I have yet to hear one good reason WHY they removed it to begin with) then decided to re-include later... Things just don't make sense to me when silliness like that occurs! The cloud and not being able to run mods clues me in though! It clues me in as to why I believe the functionality was removed to begin with - security risk if plugin was outdated and exploitable no matter if on a shared cloud environment or one single site... gave time for things to "simmer" down after a plethora of sites vB powered sites were hacked in a few months time (30,000+ or so) where many saw it as vB's fault when in fact it was just bad timing and an unknown exploit - so my theory is they cut their nose off to spite their face (even though it may have seemed like to them, that it was preventing future facepalmage but this is just imo, my little "conspiracy theory" lol) when it seemed like mods out of their control made them look bad per say.

Hey that's just my 2 cents on some random dribble lol, as I said initially above you can mod it but takes more time and adding in hooks and more to code when you can just purchase a vB5 license and run vB4 fine and find those to customize it for you and possibly use free existing mods (1,953 plus compared to vB5's low 65 or so) to achieve what you want AND no need to pay someone to make a vB3 or 4 mods work on 5 etc etc.
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  #20  
Old 05 Jul 2016, 22:13
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Things are better now than they used to be. Proof is this conversation. It's very much more civil that the same conversation was a year ago.
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  #21  
Old 05 Jul 2016, 23:59
fenderbob fenderbob is offline
 
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This is sad news...

I'm now starting to understand why so many people have been complaining about vB5.

I mean, there's a lot of things I like about it.

But there's a lot I want my forum to do that it can't right now. And I'm starting to think vB5 may have been a huge mistake.

I started my very first forum back in 2003. It didn't go anywhere and I eventually gave up on it, but back then, vBulletin was the gold standard for forums and I never forgot that.

Two years ago, with my newest forum, I ASSUMED vBulletin had only gotten better with time, and I dove in head first without doing any reading on it at all. It was only after I started getting locked out of basic tasks and all the bugs that I started doing reading on it and found all the horror stories.

I've sunk a TON of cash into this project already...well over $5,000.00, not to mention hundreds of hours-- plus my hosting bill is $60.00 per month and I don't want to give up on vBulletin, but I kind of want to get moving with the features I want.

There is absolutely nothing special about my site right now. Visitors know this and leave instantly. I haven't had a new sign up in months despite constant advertising on Google AdWords plus an aggressive social media campaign.

What's the future looking like? I get the distinct impression vbulletin.org is full of members that aren't willing to go beyond vB4 and I'm starting to totally understand why.

I don't think forums on the whole are dead.

Things may be "getting better" with vB5 but I don't want to spend the next 5 years waiting for something that might not even be happening...

Last edited by fenderbob; 06 Jul 2016 at 00:10.
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  #22  
Old 06 Jul 2016, 00:18
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Replicant Replicant is offline
 
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Forums aren't what they used to be. I have met a lot of people who wonder why nobody is signing up for their forums. I think most forums are enjoying a lack of new members. It's not so much the software as it is content. Less active members=less content. You said you did a massive campaign on social media. I did too. Here's what happened to me. I had a flood of guest users that came and checked out the site. Zero registrations despite having the one click Facebook register setup.

I've lost several members to Facebook and Pintrest, here's why:
1)Most people on social media sites have no desire to be in a conversation, they want to click a box type a sentence, maybe throw up a pic and hit send.
2)They have no interest in becoming part of a community.
3)They have really nothing to contribute, they just want to look and go on to the next trending story.
4)They just want to look at pictures.
5)There is so much info available on the internet now that asking a question is pretty much obsolete. Thanks Google for knowing everything.


My son uses forums all the time to solve issues with his cars, trucks, and audio problems. He is the member of exactly one forum. Mine. He posted once to introduce himself to the guys. They responded and welcomed him aboard. To this day, he still don't know that because he never logged in again to check the board. This is the age of millennials.

My opinion is, if a forum isn't highly specialized in one area and on a niche subject, it will eventually go stale and either fail or just be a source of reading for the guy who happen to get a hit on google.

Sorry for the rant.
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  #23  
Old 06 Jul 2016, 11:55
nhawk nhawk is offline
 
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Originally Posted by fenderbob View Post
This is sad news...

I'm now starting to understand why so many people have been complaining about vB5.

I mean, there's a lot of things I like about it.

But there's a lot I want my forum to do that it can't right now. And I'm starting to think vB5 may have been a huge mistake.
In general, vB5 was a terrific idea that was poorly executed.

Fortunately the simple solution is, kill the vB5 site and switch to vB4. There are a couple thousand add-ons available for vB4 that might meet your needs. And many people will do custom development for it.

Originally Posted by fenderbob View Post
Things may be "getting better" with vB5 but I don't want to spend the next 5 years waiting for something that might not even be happening...
I wouldn't hold your breath, vB5 was released 4 years ago and it took this long to get where it is today. So, that should give you an idea of how quickly (or not) things happen.
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  #24  
Old 06 Jul 2016, 13:16
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In Omnibus In Omnibus is offline
 
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Originally Posted by nhawk View Post
In general, vB5 was a terrific idea that was poorly executed.

Fortunately the simple solution is, kill the vB5 site and switch to vB4. There are a couple thousand add-ons available for vB4 that might meet your needs. And many people will do custom development for it.



I wouldn't hold your breath, vB5 was released 4 years ago and it took this long to get where it is today. So, that should give you an idea of how quickly (or not) things happen.
Agreed on vB5. If they'd waited on releasing the product until it was what it is now they'd have have much more positive reaction. Even so, it has far more possibilities for a complete website in a 21st century social media environment than does vB4. Every element of every page is customizeable. That's a perfect concept, even if the actual implementation left much to be desired.

Insofar as vB4 is concerned, there are countless mods however there are also countless mods which have been left to rot. All of the most prominent developers not employed by vBulletin left. Some of those modifications are six years old, unsupported, have outdated code written for what are now deprecated versions of PHP, MySQL, HTML4 transitional, CSS2.0, JS libraries which are no longer even in repository, etc.

Even so I have constructed dozens of sites with vB4.x in the last twelve months.

What it truly comes down to is what best meets the needs of a site. Are the forums the central hub of the site or a feature? Are the forums the "landing page" or are they on a link or tab? Is the site sales driven or content driven? Is it paid membership or free? Is it advertisement heavy or ad-free? So many questions.

Any version of the software can be made to do anything, depending upon how one wants to tackle it. There are still many sites using vB3.x versions which are so heavily customized that they will never change major software versions.

If you can get vB4.x to do what you want with existing modifications it's certainly the path of least resistance.

If you're having to pay someone to do the coding to obtain the features and functions you want I would personally recommend staying with vB5 because it's going to remain actively developed for the foreseeable future whereas vB4 is six years old and will likely be updated only for security patches.

In fact, I think if the vB5 release had gone as planned vB4 would have been declared EOL by now.

What I would do, and what I actually do for my clients, is to develop a prototype of the site in both versions and see which I find best meets their needs. That might seem time-consuming but you're trying to get it right, not trying to get it right now.
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  #25  
Old 06 Jul 2016, 13:55
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Paul M Paul M is offline
 
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Originally Posted by TheLastSuperman View Post
...but now we must do as we've been told many times in the past, submit a request via Jira (I still love you Paul but no, someone should be paid to think ahead and add/re-add where common sense says they should be or were prior to a certain degree) when we're not being paid a penny to submit anything
Why are you directing that comment at me ?

1. I dont make the rules.
2. I dont work on vBulletin 5.

That said, the rule is there for a reason - all development is tracked in Jira, there has to be a central place, and thats it. So no Jira = it wont happen.

Developers are paid to develop, not sit and write Jira's for other people too lazy to do so.
You seem to be in the "I want something for nothing" brigade. You want a hook but are not going to put in the minute amount of effort to request it - because you're "not being paid a penny to submit anything". If thats how you want to be, that's fine, but dont moan about hooks not getting added.
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  #26  
Old 06 Jul 2016, 20:54
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TheLastSuperman TheLastSuperman is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Paul M View Post
Why are you directing that comment at me ?

1. I dont make the rules.
2. I dont work on vBulletin 5.

That said, the rule is there for a reason - all development is tracked in Jira, there has to be a central place, and thats it. So no Jira = it wont happen.
I directed it at you based on your last reply:

Originally Posted by Paul M View Post
Thats exactly what its used for.
Its quite new in vb5 (prior to that you had the extensions system, which still works).
As far as hooks go, you may find they dont currently exist where you need them, but you can add them your self and then request they be added to the core.
How are you supposed to request something be added? Jira

*Also you were paid to remove the hooks or actually tasked with it correct? Whom should I address my comment to another staff member who was not involved in the removal in the least or someone who knows full and well what happened? I choose you Pikachu!

Originally Posted by Paul M View Post
Developers are paid to develop, not sit and write Jira's for other people too lazy to do so.
You seem to be in the "I want something for nothing" brigade. You want a hook but are not going to put in the minute amount of effort to request it - because you're "not being paid a penny to submit anything". If thats how you want to be, that's fine, but dont moan about hooks not getting added.
Exactly! I develop for others, I expect the company to develop for their actual customers instead of making them jump through Jira hoops it's that simple! The Jira system is helpful yes but some things are common sense like re-introducing a system again i.e. it should be the same if not better than before. The fact that this particular issue brings up such controversy in a sense it just silly too! So we debate over a system now lacking when it once wasn't, it was removed/limited but now brought back half-rear ended at best! When you're going to re-introduce a system at least do it proper (directed at upper management).

I'll always be in the "I want something for nothing" brigade so long as vBulletin continues to be in the "Give them nothing for something" brigade (imo) and it's just that simple. I expect more from the company, always have and always will.
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  #27  
Old 06 Jul 2016, 22:21
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Originally Posted by TheLastSuperman View Post
How are you supposed to request something be added? Jira
Yes, you request it using Jira.
If you cannot be bothered, it wont happen, I thought that was pretty clear.

Originally Posted by TheLastSuperman View Post
*Also you were paid to remove the hooks or actually tasked with it correct? Whom should I address my comment to another staff member who was not involved in the removal in the least or someone who knows full and well what happened? I choose you Pikachu!
How is the fact that I removed them (as instructed) four years ago relevant ?
You dont need to address comments at anyone specifically. There was completely no need at all to single out myself in that post.

Jump through hoops ! Are you real ? in the time it took to type your reply you could have logged several hook requests, creating a jira takes a minute or two at most.
Like so many you have spent more time complaining about why you wont do something than the time it would have took to actually do it.

Originally Posted by TheLastSuperman View Post
I'll always be in the "I want something for nothing" brigade so long as vBulletin continues to be in the "Give them nothing for something" brigade (imo) and it's just that simple. I expect more from the company, always have and always will.
IB dont give nothing for something, you are just making silly statements now.
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  #28  
Old 06 Jul 2016, 23:27
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Replicant Replicant is offline
 
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From what I have seen in the source files, there are quite a few legacy hooks commented out. It would not be too hard for someone who is developing a particular mod to use that to their advantage. In most cases, the hook would be in the correct place or close to it. After the product is complete and tested, putting a hook placement request in a Jira is not, IMO, too much to ask. I don't know how many hooks were in previous versions but I'm guessing it was a lot. With the current code structure, it seems that not nearly as many hooks would be needed in vb5. Let's face it, a lot of the hooks in the older versions were workarounds to put functionality into the product that is now built into the core product.
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  #29  
Old 06 Jul 2016, 23:55
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In Omnibus In Omnibus is offline
 
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From what I've seen you could drop more hookers into vB5 than there are in Bangkok and it still wouldn't cause anyone to develop products. You need people willing to develop third party modifications for vB5 and, as of right this moment, there is one developer with multiple vB5 mods of any notoriety.

You need an incentive to get developers to work on vB5 products.
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  #30  
Old 07 Jul 2016, 01:31
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TheLastSuperman TheLastSuperman is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Paul M View Post
Yes, you request it using Jira.
If you cannot be bothered, it wont happen, I thought that was pretty clear.
Paul when I replied by answering your question as to why I used your name initially - I meant to convey the reason I used your name initially, is the fact that you said what I bold and italicized in my last reply i.e. you said to request it be added which means use Jira, I asked to point out that despite you not saying submit to Jira directly - that's what it meant.

Myself being bothered has nothing to do with Jira submissions when I'm on family time - i.e. once you clock out you're off company time, on your own time and personal life should be kept separate or at least for most it is, you clock out you go home to your wife and kids etc.

So if I were to say: I reckon next time you go on vacation I can just comment and say that you since you can't be bothered (apparently and obviously it would be due to you being on vacation) that something "else" won't happen due to that.

^ Would that be fair to do to you? I don't feel it would be but that's not you, when I was saying (imo) it's meant to be taken with a grain of salt to a certain extent.

When it's Mozilla and it's an open source community then by all means have somewhere where people who love the software can help and submit requests and tickets etc and tell them that if they don't help it won't happen and eventually all will be lost, which would be true i.e. no income or free support so no Mozilla. I do not agree with having clients who pay for this software being asked to do so much on their own and in their own time however I see it as a useful tool but I don't like to see it used as a crutch so heavily. vBulletin is paid software and it's about time it started ACTING like it instead of just limping along on that crutch I mentioned.

Originally Posted by Paul M View Post
How is the fact that I removed them (as instructed) four years ago relevant ?
You dont need to address comments at anyone specifically. There was completely no need at all to single out myself in that post.
Again I must go back to what I mentioned above, when you said what I bold and italicized it prompted me to reply, I was replying to this thread based on everyone else comments and primarily yours. If you say "just request it be added" or similar I'm going to assume every time you mean to submit a ticket through Jira and if you agree that is what your statement meant then I don't see why singling you out was a big deal? I meant to single you out but not in a negative way - instead to speak to the person who directly had dealings with it at the time and again, whose comment made prompted my post and were directly related to what I was saying - I did that yes, what did I do wrong? I just think you thought I was "targeting" you which was not the case at all, I don't mind clarifying ever so no worries .

Originally Posted by Paul M View Post
Jump through hoops ! Are you real ? in the time it took to type your reply you could have logged several hook requests, creating a jira takes a minute or two at most.
Like so many you have spent more time complaining about why you wont do something than the time it would have took to actually do it.
Yes, hoops.

Login here, type up something that makes sense if it's not already obvious, pics or no pics, submit this here, mark it as this, flag it, vote it, watch it, keep an eye on it, raise cain when someone marks it as trivial, raise cain when months if not years later it still isn't marked as resolved... jump jump jumpity jump jump! I've already worked today, did my "time" and depsite time differences it's the same for you daily I'd guess.

I could say geesh in the time it took you to quote me, use /quote while you broke my reply into multiple quotes and replied to each aspect of it - you could have restored the entire hook system back to it's former glory, knowing full well it's not your place to do so, therefor it doesn't get done - Tomayto / Tomahto.

IB dont give nothing for something, you are just making silly statements now.
It's not silly when I took the time to specifically type (imo) meaning in my opinion - it was just my "humorous/ironic" opinion in reply to you quoting me, sorry for the confusion.

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Aye but hey my replies are quite long, not trying to invade fenderbob's thread. FB if you need any more info let us all know, we sorta started debating in here lol! Remember that the mods are going to slowly come back, we're already seeing new ones out since the re-introduction of the system. If you want to really customize and think and "Go" outside the box, vB4 seems like your best option until we see more free mods here on the org. If you've already went with 5 (directed @ anyone) and you're too far into it, then roll with it... it makes a great standard forum as you've read here today and the hooks system is back and will be improving as time goes on so if you've been missing a certain mod, it might return soon enough!
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