[akz645]

First and foremost, I will respect Paul M wishes to no longer discuss the point about that disclaimer.
Everything below is me just discussing about trail/cloud and why I believe there should be more solutions to download/install mods.

I do not want to offend any of you. I just want to help vbulletin by sharing my own opinion.
If the employees think my ideas are not good for business, so be it. I thought it would be better to express my opinion, than to not say anything at all
I'd also like to thank everybody who has replied back to me & all those who will continue to do so. Whether you disagree or not with my opinion, that's absolutely fine. It's better to have somebody reply back, then nobody at all

Originally Posted by BirdOPrey5

...

Thank you for going through all the points

I didn't know trial only lasts 24 hours, I thought it would last a week at minimum.
I believe a week is the ideal amount of time for testing purposes. Not too long, not too short.


I understand that allowing users to use a FTP account and to download/install mods is a security risk to all those who use a cloud server.
But still...
All those who have paid for cloud, perhaps they could gain access to another cloud server, where they can test out mods? Or trail users have to pay, if they want access to that cloud server to try out mods?
As there is no such a service, I believe vbulletin is losing out on making money.

This limits potential customers the chance to test. As a customer myself, I wanted to buy cloud to test out mods, but my friend told me this wasn't possible.
I like to test out mods first hand. To see whether it works on a particular skin and whether or not it clashes with another mod. There is no way to know for certain whether a mod will or will not work, without paying for the full vbulletin licence based on all I've read so far. Hence the only other way a potential customer can find out is if they know somebody else who has a licence or obtain the product and mods from piracy.

If it turns out the mod doesn't work and that's the only reason they're buying vbulletin over xenforo (as an example), I can understand why customers would be unhappy. Hence the user may end up selling his licence.
From what I've seen, all vbulletin sites that have gone on to be successful have used at least 1 mod that wasn't in the core product. I'm not going to list all the reasons for the significance of mods, as I'm sure you're all aware. That's why I believe it's a key selling point for vbulletin over other boards at this moment in time and therefore another way to test out mods should be possible.

Yeah I'm probably wasting my time giving out solutions. But as I see it, vbulletin is almost forcing genuine customers to try out vbulletin through piracy first...

[TheLastSuperman]

There are many people with great ideas, we all have them but the company will only implement what they wish depending on the direction the company wants to take with the software, if making a change to notify someone is not required then why waste time? If the system has worked fine for years with only a handful of threads similar to this one asking why or why not something is done then its fine and does not need updating.

You're not wasting time giving out solutions, you truly didn't give any... not saying that smart but the system/setup is fine as-is, these ideas of yours are just that, ideas and while you deem them worthy enough to warrant change, that is your justification as to why its required not the companies. Genuine customers are the type of people who would never download and install illegal/nulled software to begin with - they would genuinely pay for it, genuinely test out mods, and genuinely enjoy the support provided on vbulletin.com and here on .org that they genuinely paid to access. Did I say Genuinely? Genuinely pay for something and you can genuinely enjoy it without shame!

[BirdOPrey5]

Whoever owns a vBulletin license can also install a second "test" copy for which they can use to test mods or other things. This copy just needs to be blocked from the public- most often accomplished with an .htaccess password.

So any license holder can create their test copy and give access to a developer or someone they know interested in creating or testing mods on it. There is no need to pay for a 2nd account.

[akz645]

Originally Posted by TheLastSuperman

If the system has worked fine for years with only a handful of threads similar to this one asking why or why not something is done then its fine and does not need updating.

If it ain't broke, why fix it. I can definitely understand why you and others would think that way and that might be the most beneficial mindset to have for this business.

If this isn't too much trouble, can you/another mod make a poll, asking only unlicenced members to vote?
The question being something like:
- If trail was extended to 1 week & you could download mods during that time, would that temp you into buying our product more than our current system?
You could expand on that question in the first post and/or change that question to something similar. As you'd need to explain what your current system/stance is.
You don't have to make that poll and vbulletin staff certainly do not have to use it's result to determine what they'd do. I just think it would be better to make a poll asking users without vbulletin licence than not asking at all.
It can potentially make vbulletin more money, but if they're content as is, then that's their choice Maybe new staff in the future may agree with me, if nobody does now.
If they think it will be bad for business, then that's fine too. If that is the case, I would like to know why they think it would be bad for business though.

Originally Posted by TheLastSuperman

You're not wasting time giving out solutions, you truly didn't give any... not saying that smart but the system/setup is fine as-is, these ideas of yours are just that, ideas and while you deem them worthy enough to warrant change, that is your justification as to why its required not the companies.

Now that I think about it, using the word solution does sound quite pompous . So yeah, Solution probably wasn't the best word to use. I apologise.
Yes you're right, they're just ideas. In fact, my ideas may be the opposite of a solution.

Originally Posted by TheLastSuperman

Genuine customers are the type of people who would never download and install illegal/nulled software to begin with - they would genuinely pay for it, genuinely test out mods, and genuinely enjoy the support provided on vbulletin.com and here on .org that they genuinely paid to access. Did I say Genuinely? Genuinely pay for something and you can genuinely enjoy it without shame!

I think you're using the word genuine and loyal customers synonymously.
I'm referring to potential customers. So users who would like to/want to test first before they become full customers (genuine) by purchasing a vbulletin licence.
Existing customers don't really need to download free pirated mods, as they can just get them for free here.

How is a 'potential' customer supposed to know whether or not the product is to their liking? How exactly will they know if a mod works or not?
As I stated before, you can't truly know if the mod will work on not, without testing out yourself. What if they buy a licence and then install the mods but it doesn't work out? Additionally, lets say they don't get any support to have it fixed. Should they still be happy? If that was their only reason for buying this board over another, wouldn't they have wasted money?

What if they do not know anybody who owns a vbulletin licence to allow them to test, on a test forum?
The only way for them to test out your product & mods before actually purchasing the full product is through piracy- I don't think that's very good. Potential customers are not loyal to you, they simply want to test before purchase, which I don't believe makes them bad people. The shame will be very minimal, if they're only doing so for testing reasons and do not intend to use any nulled product for too long.
If they like the product and mods, they'll buy it. If not, they won't. I guess another counter argument you could say to my idea is that allowing users to thoroughly test vbulletin and mods wouldn't be good for business. Although I have no idea whether or not that would be true.

Originally Posted by BirdOPrey5

Whoever owns a vBulletin license can also install a second "test" copy for which they can use to test mods or other things. This copy just needs to be blocked from the public- most often accomplished with an .htaccess password.

So any license holder can create their test copy and give access to a developer or someone they know interested in creating or testing mods on it. There is no need to pay for a 2nd account.

Yes I am aware of that, as that's precisely what I did (which I stated earlier)
However, I don't think the vast majority of unlicensed users would be able to access such a thing, as they'd need to know somebody with a vbulletin licence (as I've mentioned before).
This method isn't very ideal though because it requires constantly nagging the licence owner to download X mod. Also I don't think the licence owner would allow one of their limited email slots to be given to somebody they don't know too much and/or access to their FTP for the user to upload mods themselves.

[TheLastSuperman]

I was using the word genuine in context per say more than you perceived, you can't be genuine if you're "fake" is how I meant it. People can certainly change however to me not in the short amount of time it would take for one to realize he/she should be paying for something instead of using it for free continuing to throw caution to the wind simply running around going "Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee" .

If the site owner adds their friends email to the priority support sites checkboxes in their settings via the members area, then they can login here and download all the mods they want, without bugging the actual license owner - why yes, you can view and download attachments if you're listed on their account.

[akz645]

Originally Posted by TheLastSuperman

I was using the word genuine in context per say more than you perceived, you can't be genuine if you're "fake" is how I meant it.

So we were using the word genuine differently. My intention was users who buy a vbulletin license are genuine. Nothing more.

Originally Posted by TheLastSuperman

People can certainly change however to me not in the short amount of time it would take for one to realize he/she should be paying for something instead of using it for free continuing to throw caution to the wind simply running around going "Weeee

I'm not sure where I mentioned people using a nulled vbulletin product for testing reasons need to change.
If they can't find a method to access vbulletin for testing reasons and they resort to piracy, then that's on them. Sure it's not legal and sure they may feel shame. However, I think they'd feel more frustrated than shame.
As it highlights lack of testing opportunities available from vbulletin.

Judging people who use nulled vbulletin products negatively does not make them childish. Hence I don't really see the need for you to use that analogy/way of expressing what they're doing
Those who have/ are using nulled vbulletin product have to be more cautious than those who don't. Most likely from their webhost if nobody else.

I only find that to be slightly unethical, however I do find it understandable and I wouldn't judge them negatively for it. I find it illogical for anybody to ignore this matter as a non factor. Acknowledging it is the first step, whether or not anything should be done about it is a whole other matter. As simply doing nothing may be the best course of action for business.

Originally Posted by TheLastSuperman

If the site owner adds their friends email to the priority support sites checkboxes in their settings via the members area, then they can login here and download all the mods they want, without bugging the actual license owner - why yes, you can view and download attachments if you're listed on their account.

Originally Posted by akz645

I don't think the vast majority of unlicensed users would be able to access such a thing, as they'd need to know somebody with a vbulletin licence (as I've mentioned before).
This method isn't very ideal though because it requires constantly nagging the licence owner to download X mod. Also I don't think the licence owner would allow one of their limited email slots to be given to somebody they don't know too much and/or access to their FTP for the user to upload mods themselves.

Maybe my use of wording is poorly put. But I've repeated this point several times now
Or maybe I didn't quite understand what you meant in that paragraph. But I'm pretty sure my quote above has already addressed it.
Edit- http://i.imgur.com/ZwWbSlZ.png

[TheLastSuperman]

I'm not sure how to even reply to the above, honestly I'm confused by what you said so I'll just reply to what I interpreted.

I think they'd feel more frustrated than shame.
As it highlights lack of testing opportunities available from vbulletin.

Why would vBulletin allow them to test modifications and receive support when they didn't pay? If they did this then soon enough no more vBulletin, a company is out to make money unless its a charity plain and simple. If your paid staff spends most of the day providing support to those who didn't pay for it then those who did wouldn't receive the support they paid for. No company will allow their employees to sit around and basically do work for someone when nothing is gained. If a company similar to vBulletin does this please share the link to their website for review.

People who do such, rarely feel shame hence the fact they stole in the first place. Setting up demos, adding email addresses to "free owners" to allow access, all of the above takes additional changes and time - Time is money when it comes to a business.

Judging people who use nulled vbulletin products negatively does not make them childish. Hence I don't really see the need for you to use that analogy/way of expressing what they're doing

Only children who are too young to realize would intentionally steal, if you're an adult the courts tend to label you a criminal and prosecute as such because you should know better - it's expected of you to know better after all its the law.

Those who have/ are using nulled vbulletin product have to be more cautious than those who don't. Most likely from their webhost if nobody else.

Or simply not steal, then no stress in the least and no need for caution. I truly don't know why any company would intentionally allow this, it makes no sense in a business model and as I stated above it would be a lack of income for the company. If the nulled owners unite and start a kickstarter campaign then perhaps but then again the reason why they use nulled software to begin with is the fact they could not afford it so they decided to justify why they could illegally use it instead. I don't see how you justify this to yourself either or push for such a change it makes no sense considering the fact a demo is available and there are countless sites running the mods from here and other third-party script providers that you could simply register and test out well enough to know if you wanted the mod or not.

Different strokes for different folks I suppose.

[ozzy47]

I don't understand all the discussion, the policy is not going to change, no matter how much it is argued against.

[akz645]

Originally Posted by ozzy47

I don't understand all the discussion, the policy is not going to change, no matter how much it is argued against.

Feel free to not read. I think it's a discussion worth having. Regardless of whether or not it changes vbulletin employees mind at this current moment in time.
I've written most (if not all) I need to, but my thoughts don't seem to have been accurately portrayed yet, based on some of the replies I've received. Once that is done, I will no longer need to further reply to this thread anymore. Likewise, I can't keep discussing with myself

This discussion can apply to any product, that is structured in a similar manner. Even if vbulletin don't agree, maybe another company for another product will
It's somewhat relatable to somebody selling a PRO version of their product, but providing LITE version for testing purposes. Although the rules on this website state the LITE must last forever. But if they could, I'm sure some paid service providers would post on here allowing users to download a trail version of their paid product (example: ArrowChat). Users having the option of a trail/lite is better than having no (legal) available testing opportunities at all.

Originally Posted by TheLastSuperman

I'm not sure how to even reply to the above, honestly I'm confused by what you said so I'll just reply to what I interpreted.

I'm typing a lot to help anybody reading my posts, to understand my thoughts as concisely as possible. Although I do apologise if the wording of my posts are poorly phrased.
I appreciate your responses very much. Just thought I'd let you know

Originally Posted by TheLastSuperman

Why would vBulletin allow them to test modifications and receive support when they didn't pay?

Originally Posted by akz645

I didn't know trial only lasts 24 hours, I thought it would last a week at minimum.
I believe a week is the ideal amount of time for testing purposes. Not too long, not too short.

Originally Posted by akz645

4) Can trail users download mods?
5) Can trail users view codes?
For 4 and 5: I think they should be allowed to do both, if they can't already.
Maybe they should pay a small fee to download mods for X days/ however long their trail version has left? I don't think they should be allowed to get support/post on the forum though, aside from the pre-sale section & wherever else unlicensed members can currently post on this website.

I didn't say they should receive additional support.
I just think they should be able to download/look at code (trail users). If they do ask for help/support for a modification, then they should be told to buy the full vbulletin product for modification/code support. Even if they do get the full product, they will know that there is a chance they will not get adequate support to make the modification work. Actual vbulletin employees do not need support modifications not created by themselves.
Like on warez websites, support for modifications not made by the creator is pretty much non existent. Hence people should not need to look to piracy for testing reasons, they'd just need to download the trail version which should be accessible for all.
Allowing them to download modifications, allows them a chance to test. If all modifications they desire to make their ideal vbulletin website work as intended, then (like myself) they will be buying the product with relief, knowing which modifications work/don't work. Modifications should be extra incentive to buy the full product. I'll go one step further and say they're an integral part in selling vbulletin over other boards at this current moment in time- at least, that applied for me.

Cloud users can't download modifications, as they can't install modifications (not the current intention of cloud). But they should be able to view code.
The alternative to a different trail system, is to expand/adjust on the cloud system, as stated on this post.

Originally Posted by TheLastSuperman

Setting up demos, adding email addresses to "free owners" to allow access, all of the above takes additional changes and time - Time is money when it comes to a business.

I agree with you on that. But then the question is: Is it worth it?
I won't go into specifics for how such a thing should be done, as it's unnecessary. Especially when vbulletin coders can probably come up with easier/better ideas than myself if they were told to .

Originally Posted by TheLastSuperman

fact a demo is available and there are countless sites running the mods from here and other third-party script providers that you could simply register and test out well enough to know if you wanted the mod or not.

The demo doesn't have modifications.
As I stated before, modifications can clash with eachother. Nor will people know whether or not it will work on their webhost. No demo website/actual website will be setup how exactly somebody desires without first hand testing. Additionally, most people shouldn't be able to test out the adminCP settings for a particular modification on a random website.
Searching for websites with specific: Mods, adminCP settings, vbulletin version, theme style, sql version, php version, etc is very improbable.

Originally Posted by TheLastSuperman

If your paid staff spends most of the day providing support to those who didn't pay for it then those who did wouldn't receive the support they paid for.
No company will allow their employees to sit around and basically do work for someone when nothing is gained. If a company similar to vBulletin does this please share the link to their website for review.

Xenforo & DB Tech products.
I will not link to it nor do I think we need to discuss that on this thread, as I haven't suggested to give additional support/listen to unlicenced/trail members suggestions/problems. That's a whole other topic, which would need another thread created for it

Originally Posted by TheLastSuperman

Different strokes for different folks I suppose.

As for the rest of what you typed, that sums it up